In context: Romans 4:4-5

[Elin]

Neither texts state that Christ over looked the sin of man.

Yes, God overlooked their sin because Christ reconciled to God those who believe in the Son,
by his atoning sacrifice for their sin, taking it away on the cross (Heb 10:4).
Their sin is gone.

Their sin being removed by faith in Jesus Christ,
God declares them "not guilty" of sin and rightwise/in right standing with him;
i.e., justified, righteous (Ro 5:17; 1:17), saved from his wrath at the final judgment (Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9).

There is no text that states that Christ ONLY reconciled possible future believers only.

Christ said he came to die as a ransom for the sins of many, he did not say for the sins of all (Mt 20:28).

The remainder of your post is addressed in post #616, above.

 

[Elin]

but the assertion made is that God is doing the work of believing for the believers. God works In you for you to do His will. God is not the one doing His will through you.

If God is actually doing the work that He requires of you, then God becomes the responsible agent

Which is why we cast our crowns of reward at his feet, because it was the work of his grace,
not our work.

He did it all. . .one of the secrets of the kingdom for those who have eyes that see (Jn 3:3).

 

[SeaBass]

I don't even believe you believe this anymore. dikaioo also appears in Romans 3:4 you yourself admitted this was not speaking of justification before God, but rather vindication of God before men. Even Paul used the word in different ways in the very same letter.

Paul spoke of justification before God by faith and not by works. James spoke of the justification of claim before men by works. There's no contradiction whatsoever. You just don't understand the word dikaioo.

Again the difference is NOT in the meaning of justification but in HOW one is justified, justified by works of merit? No. Justtifed by obedient works? Yes.


Rom 6:16-18 Paul said you serve either sin unto death of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. I serve "obedience unto righteousness". Which do you serve?

And in verses 17-18 the order of events are:
1) servants of sin
2) obey from the heart
3) then being freed from sin/justified.


Servants of sin >> then obeyed >> then servants of righteousness.


The idea of being justified "before men" means nothing for it is God that justifies and not men. In the context of James 2, James uses Abraham as an example and Abraham went out to the wilderness to offer Isaac, AWAY FROM men's eyes. Abrahams' act of obedience in offering Issac did not have to be "before men" for him to be justified but before God, with God saying "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Gen 22:12

 

[SeaBass]

No. If Joe does not works, then it's proof he did not have faith. You've been told this dozens of times in this thread.

I have not been told this by faith onlyist Elin yet. And she will not say this for it makes being a Christian conditional upon doing good works.

 

[Elin]

Your Greek dictionaries are based on the Latin translation thus they take a Latin word and give it a Greek meaning

You're using the wrong dictionary.

I hold to the Greek scholars of the early Church

I prefer the NT text, as translated by Greek scholars who know the difference between classical Greek and koine Greek.

The Satisfaction theory that you are espousing

Christ's payment of the penalty for sin is straight out of Isa 53:5 and Ro 3:25-26.

part of the doctrine is that one is saved no matter what one does after that point.

Straw man. . .

 

[Elin]

Those in Christ are not guilty of condemnation at the final judgment (Ro 8:1).

Their condemnation was forever forgiven through grace by faith,
and their sin is forgiven in confessing it (1Jn 1:8-10).

The Greeks did not write the NT.

The NT means what the Greek means, as written by the apostles, et al.

Elin,

You are holding to a man made theory of Anselm in the 11th century. All the reformers adopted the theory.

Ro 8:1 is not a man-made theory.

 

[Elin]

Now you have changed your view.

You are misunderstanding it.

Review it again.

 

[Elin]

1 cor 3 has nothing to do with Eph 2:10 where God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in good works.

Again, can "Joe" become a Christian and NEVER do any good works yet still be saved?

I've answered that question.

 

[Elin]

Contradiction of terms. . .

Can "Joe" become a Christian and not do any good works as a Christian and yet still be saved anyway?

Contradiction of terms. . .

 

[Elin]

I have not been told this by faith onlyist Elin yet. And she will not say this for it makes being a Christian conditional upon doing good works.

What do you think "contradiction of terms" between "Christian" and "not do any good works" means?

 

[Cassian]

Which is why we cast our crowns of reward at his feet, because it was the work of his grace,
not our work.

He did it all. . .one of the secrets of the kingdom for those who have eyes that see (Jn 3:3).

So you believe that God believes for you. You are completely passive. When He commands us to love Him, it is He that is loving Himself for you. When He commands that we be obedient, it is He that is obedient to Himself, not you.

Do you even know and understand what you are saying?

 

[Calminian]

So you believe that God believes for you. You are completely passive. When He commands us to love Him, it is He that is loving Himself for you. When He commands that we be obedient, it is He that is obedient to Himself, not you.

Do you even know and understand what you are saying?

No, it's not passive, but God gets credit for all we do, even the good. You have nothing to offer God. Apart from Him you can do nothing.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

 

[Cassian]

Ro 8:1 is not a man-made theory.

Rom 8:1 condemns your interpretation. It is a conditional statement. Your view is that on initia faith, a person is justified, declared NOT GUILTY, FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. there is not text in all of scripture that makes that statement or implies that statement. The text states that IF one walks in the Spirit, then one will not be condemned. A long ways form your interpretation. More initial believers fail to get to the end, continue to walk in the Spirit than do.

Scripture is not man made, it just that man thinks he can actually do a better job than the Holy Spirit, yet no man has yet changed the Gospel from its original meaning.

 

[Cassian]

No, it's not passive, but God gets credit for all we do, even the good. You have nothing to offer God. Apart from Him you can do nothing.

John 15:5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Which clearly states that we are the ones doing the doing. It is that we cannot do it alone which is the impetus of our salvation. God cannot save us alone, we cannot save ourselves alone. ONLY the union, a covenantal union between
God and man saves. We, not God, wlll be accountable for what we do. We have a lot to offer Him, our hearts and our lives, unconditionally.

 

[Calminian]

Rom 8:1 condemns your interpretation. It is a conditional statement. Your view is that on initia faith, a person is justified, declared NOT GUILTY, FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. .....

Yep, this is the clear teaching of the New Testament.

Rom. 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are in Christ, He will change you and cause you to persevere and He has covered your sins with his blood. You can't out sin Christ's sacrifice.

Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

That's extremely good news. Paul goes on to warn that the true believe will never take advantage of this.


Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

The true believe dies to the continual practice of sin. But make no mistake, you will stumble. The good news is, it's covered. It's no longer a sin questions, but a Son question. Just make sure you're not deceiving yourself. If you practice sin, it may be you never had faith in the first place.

 

[Calminian]

Which clearly states that we are the ones doing the doing. It is that we cannot do it alone which is the impetus of our salvation. God cannot save us alone, we cannot save ourselves alone. ONLY the union, a covenantal union between
God and man saves. We, not God, wlll be accountable for what we do. We have a lot to offer Him, our hearts and our lives, unconditionally.

But you're talking works here, not salvation. We can do nothing without Christ and the Spirit after being saved. All our good works are to the credit of God.

But God did not have to save us. He chose to reckon our faith as righteous, but this was His gift. We did not have any role in God making that decision. This was a choice He made alone. He could have let all believers perish with unbelievers and we are all ungodly, but He chose not to. He chose to accept faith as righteousness. We had no say in that matter.

 

[Cassian]

Yep, this is the clear teaching of the New Testament.

Rom. 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you are in Christ, He will change you and cause you to persevere and He has covered your sins with his blood. You can't out sin Christ's sacrifice.

Rom. 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

That's extremely good news. Paul goes on to warn that the true believe will never take advantage of this.


Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

The true believe dies to the continual practice of sin. But make no mistake, you will stumble. The good news is, it's covered. It's no longer a sin questions, but a Son question. Just make sure you're not deceiving yourself. If you practice sin, it may be you never had faith in the first place.

That is the unmistakeable teaching of Calvinism. Our personal salvation is life lived faithfully in Christ. It has nothing to do with being declared not guilty. The forgiveness of sin's only purpose was to enable a sinful creature to be in union with God in this life. A believer continues to sin and unless those sins are confessed, they are retained and can condemn a man.
The problem of Christ's atonement with your view is that He atoned the sin of the world. You are espousing the false notion of OSAS.

Your view of man and a believer has no relations to scripture, but to false presuppositions. As long as sin exist, as long as we live in these mortal bodies and Satan is seeking to devour believers, a believer can fall back into sin. Being a believer is not a guarantee against sin.

 

[Cassian]

But you're talking works here, not salvation. We can do nothing without Christ and the Spirit after being saved. All our good works are to the credit of God.

I need to be careful here because most Protestants don't use these terms as scripture does. Salvation wrought be Christ is eternal, permanent and man cannot contribute a thing to Christ's work. It is why we needed Christ.
However, the purpose of Christ's salvation of the world from death, sin and Satan was to make possible the union of man and God in order that man could freely attain eternal life. This attaining eternal life is a person's individual salvation and it is all about work, working through faith.

But God did not have to save us.

In neither case did He need to save us. However the Gift of love, grace and mercy to man also enabled Christ again to have dominion over this world by defeating Satan. He could have permitted His creation as well as man to be continually dissolved by death but they He would not have been Sovereign over His own creation.

He chose to reckon our faith as righteous, but this was His gift.

but righteousness is not salvation. This does not save a man. It simply puts a person into a correct relationship with Christ in order that he might attain eternal life.

We did not have any role in God making that decision. This was a choice He made alone

You are correct in that God created this world and man in it. But He also set up how man would operate in this world. We either do His will or our own will, but the choice is all ours and every single human being.

He could have let all believers perish with unbelievers and we are all ungodly, but He chose not to. He chose to accept faith as righteousness. We had no say in that matter.

What you fail to understand is that Christ redeemed all sinners, mankind, no one was left out. Rom 5:6-10. Col 1:20. This gift makes it possible for all men to be able to believe and have a relationship with his Creator. Thus you did have say in that you chose to believe. God did not compel you to believe, He cannot compel you to remain faithful. You are completely free to be in union with God or not to be. For that reason there will be a judgment.

We are responsible for our actions and choices. Neither God nor Satan makes you do anything that you do not desire to do.

 

[Calminian]

....but righteousness is not salvation.....

Righteousness actually is the means to salvation. You can either come to God based on your own righteousness, or clothed in Christ's righteousness. Scripture is clear that Christ is the only way, and that we can attain heaven by his righteousness alone.

Sorry, I reject catholic and eastern orthodox soteriology. You'll have to prove your case from the Bible.

 

[Calminian]

That is the unmistakeable teaching of Calvinism......

No actually that's what arminius believed as well. Wesley also embraced the gospel I shared with you above. There are some distinctives with calvinism, but I didn't go into any of those in my post.

Cassian, you're spreading much more heat than light. You need to study these issues more.