In the days of those kings

[VARob]

when I was in my early twenties I believed in a pre tribulation rapture also but I hadn’t read what the Bible says about it yet just heard about things from people and read crumbs myself if we do t already understand before we read things in the Bible we learn from those things , if we already know and those things dont make a dent we’re spinning our wheels so eventually I eas persuaded to change he my belief given I could never come to the reasoning I was right and the Bible was wrong

This kind of reasoning is interesting... You assert your early pre-trib belief was wrong, and that you finally came around to believing "what the Bible says." This implies that people who disagree with you on this topic are disagreeing with what the Bible says.

I am pre-trib, and have been for almost 50 years. I'm convinced from the Bible, not from things I've heard people say or "crumbs" from the Bible, that pre-trib is the truth. That said, the Bible is not crystal clear on these things. If it was, we would all believe the same thing, and there would not be all these different eschatological views.

We'll find out who was the closest to being right, and perhaps soon... But in the meantime, concerning this topic, suggesting that people who do not agree with you (or me..) are not agreeing with what the Bible says really doesn't hold any water.

Apologies if I read too much into what you said.

 

[Cameron143]

This kind of reasoning is interesting... You assert your early pre-trib belief was wrong, and that you finally came around to believing "what the Bible says." This implies that people who disagree with you on this topic are disagreeing with what the Bible says.

I am pre-trib, and have been for almost 50 years. I'm convinced from the Bible, not from things I've heard people say or "crumbs" from the Bible, that pre-trib is the truth. That said, the Bible is not crystal clear on these things. If it was, we would all believe the same thing, and there would not be all these different eschatological views.

We'll find out who was the closest to being right, and perhaps soon... But in the meantime, concerning this topic, suggesting that people who do not agree with you (or me..) are not agreeing with what the Bible says really doesn't hold any water.

Apologies if I read too much into what you said.

If you started with your ending comment the rest wouldn't have been necessary. Pilgrimshope doesn't have a mean bone in his body. You are right that it could have been phrased differently and it's a fair point. But it seems time on this site does cause us to have our heads on a swivel too much.

 

[VARob]

If you started with your ending comment the rest wouldn't have been necessary. Pilgrimshope doesn't have a mean bone in his body. You are right that it could have been phrased differently and it's a fair point. But it seems time on this site does cause us to have our heads on a swivel too much.

Your point is noted, but I was not suggesting that he was mean at all.

I just find it interesting. It's something nearly all of us do (myself included). ..maybe just part of our human nature.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This kind of reasoning is interesting... You assert your early pre-trib belief was wrong, and that you finally came around to believing "what the Bible says." This implies that people who disagree with you on this topic are disagreeing with what the Bible says.

I am pre-trib, and have been for almost 50 years. I'm convinced from the Bible, not from things I've heard people say or "crumbs" from the Bible, that pre-trib is the truth. That said, the Bible is not crystal clear on these things. If it was, we would all believe the same thing, and there would not be all these different eschatological views.

We'll find out who was the closest to being right, and perhaps soon... But in the meantime, concerning this topic, suggesting that people who do not agree with you (or me..) are not agreeing with what the Bible says really doesn't hold any water.

Apologies if I read too much into what you said.

naw it’s a true statement before I actually began opening my mind tonehat the Bible says I also believed in a pre tribulation rapture just a fact . People told me about it and I didn’t know any better at that time because I hadn’t heard the truth in scripture

sits. Ot me saying anything about you or any pre tribulation believer it’s me telling you the truth about what inised to believe and what I learned later just common sense either Christian’s can’t learn anything because hey already know it or they don’t know much and neee to learn from Jesus like for instance

I believed that until I read thkngs like this a

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So I thought wait I thought we were going to be raptured before the tribulation hmm. I wonder if the people telling me That are wrong ?

a then I began to notice there are no scriptures explaining Christian’s won’t endure tribulation until the end and I noticed wait paul says it’s after the dead are raised that Christian’s are taken up after Jesus returns to earth after the tribulation like Jesus had already said

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is the resurrection of the dead also before the tribulation Jesus said they would all certainly go through ?

eventually I just acknowledged the truth that pre tribulation rapture isn’t taught in the Bible it’s a creation of people who didn’t understand d just believed what someone told them like I once did

 

[Omegatime]

naw it’s a true statement before I actually began opening my mind tonehat the Bible says I also believed in a pre tribulation rapture just a fact . People told me about it and I didn’t know any better at that time because I hadn’t heard the truth in scripture

sits. Ot me saying anything about you or any pre tribulation believer it’s me telling you the truth about what inised to believe and what I learned later just common sense either Christian’s can’t learn anything because hey already know it or they don’t know much and neee to learn from Jesus like for instance

I believed that until I read thkngs like this a

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So I thought wait I thought we were going to be raptured before the tribulation hmm. I wonder if the people telling me That are wrong ?

a then I began to notice there are no scriptures explaining Christian’s won’t endure tribulation until the end and I noticed wait paul says it’s after the dead are raised that Christian’s are taken up after Jesus returns to earth after the tribulation like Jesus had already said

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is the resurrection of the dead also before the tribulation Jesus said they would all certainly go through ? I can you you you havent put scripture in a proper order.

eventually I just acknowledged the truth that pre tribulation rapture isn’t taught in the Bible it’s a creation of people who didn’t understand d just believed what someone told them like I once did

I see Pilgrim you are assuming things like a resurrection when the Lord returns at end of the Tribulation, but most do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I see Pilgrim you are assuming things like a resurrection when the Lord returns at end of the Tribulation, but most do.

well no I’m not assuming lol that’s my point it’s about hearing what he said and believing it more than we believe what someone told us sometime long ago before we actually started learning it for ourselves

why would I think Jesus would return at the end of the world ? Assumption ?

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its not an assumption to believe what the lord said and reject the people telling you not to believe it it’s an assumption when it’s not plainly written and then we pretend we know what it says

“the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:38-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He who has ears should actually hear what Jesus said imagine if he had said “ “before the tribulation I’m coming back and none of you will have to go through that terribl tribulation “ I’d be quoting those to you right now but instead let’s just hear what he said to them about the tribulation

Is Jesus explaining they won’t be present or go through this stuff ? Or is he saying you are definately going to go through this stuff ? But in the end you’ll be saved if you stand firm

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s just about us accepting we didn’t know things when we see them in scriptire God will don e rest of the correcting and teaching

the most important thing I’ve learned in 70 years as a Christian is to check what people say against what the Bible says and not to swallow every doctrine we hear before we see it in the Bible clearly

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

well no I’m not assuming lol that’s my point it’s about hearing what he said and believing it more than we believe what someone told us sometime long ago before we actually started learning it for ourselves

why would I think Jesus would return at the end of the world ? Assumption ?

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its not an assumption to believe what the lord said and reject the people telling you not to believe it it’s an assumption when it’s not plainly written and then we pretend we know what it says

In the Greek, it is referring to "the end of the AGE [singular]" (not the end of the "world");

... what follows that is "the age [singular] to come" which Jesus had just spoken of in chapter 12 (aka the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "return" to the earth at Rev19), chpt 12 v. 32... and which He elaborates upon elsewhere (for example, His two-chapter response to the Q they LATER posed to Him about such, in Matt24:3 re: "the end [singular] of the AGE [singular]").

Its not an assumption to believe what the lord said and reject the people telling you not to believe it it’s an assumption when it’s not plainly written and then we pretend we know what it says

“the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:38-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This context ^ is talking about people who will be "still alive" at the time being spoken of (at "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"); It is not talking about anyone being "resurrected" from the dead, here in this text.

I'm not suggesting that no one will be resurrected at that time (for Daniel 12:13 and Job 19:25-27 and John 11:25-27 and 1Cor15:23c [not 23b] and Rev20:4b speak of this, that there WILL be); I'm just pointing out that the Matthew 13 context in particular is speaking to the matter of "still-living persons" at the time-slot being spoken of (the point in time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth / return to the earth, Rev19); "Wheat" and "tares" are what are standing on / growing upon the earth, in other words. It's not covering the Subject of "resurrection [from the dead]" here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you believe the Lord Jesus was perfect and sinless and what the Father knows, the son knows also.

I, too, agree that ever since His ascension / exaltation, Jesus "knows" perfectly, and has disclosed further information on THAT Subject in subsequent written revelation (i.e. in the LATER 95ad, verse 1 saying "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHOW UNTO..." and then various time-stamps and timing indicators are spelled out throughout the text of that writing);

I, too, have studied the timing issues (and calendar issues) for many years. = )

From post #8 I said from the time of Trumpets to Pentecost is exactly 1335 days but only in certain years.

May I ask for clarification here? I've skimmed through this thread, and think I've been tracking what your point is, on this, but want to ask in order to be sure.

Are you saying that you believe the "1335 [BLESSED] day" is counted from "Day 1" and runs to some point just past what we would call the MID-point of the 7-yr Tribulation? I'm trying to ascertain if this is your view, or if I'm mis-reading you. = )

That is perfection of Daniel 12:12.

I see Dan12:12's "BLESSED" day (1335) to correspond to about 7 or 8 other "BLESSED" passages... ones like:
Rev19:9 "BLESSED," Rev16:14-16 "BLESSED," and Matt24:43-47's "BLESSED" which is parallel to Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44's "BLESSED" (and where He'd also said, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347; same G347 word used in Matt8:11 and parallel], aka the MK age), and Matt25:31-34's "BLESSED," etc, etc... ALL of which contexts speak to His Second Coming to the earth / "return" to the earth at the Rev19 point in the chronology... rather than to a point in time somewhat prior to that (if that's what you were getting at, but I wasn't real sure if that was your meaning regarding the "1335 blessed day"). Note: I'm not suggesting some "75 days" past the end point, as some suggest, though.

Thoughts?




[note: I'm a pre-tribber with regard to "rapture" timing, but that doesn't effect the topic under present discussion, regarding Dan12:12's "1335 blessed day" as to "WHEN" that particular point IN TIME occurs, which is what I'm asking you about in particular, as to your view on its timing in relation to the rest of the 2520-day period. = ) Thanks!]

 

[Omegatime]

I, too, agree that ever since His ascension / exaltation, Jesus "knows" perfectly, and has disclosed further information on THAT Subject in subsequent written revelation (i.e. in the LATER 95ad, verse 1 saying "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHOW UNTO..." and then various time-stamps and timing indicators are spelled out throughout the text of that writing);

I, too, have studied the timing issues (and calendar issues) for many years. = )



May I ask for clarification here? I've skimmed through this thread, and think I've been tracking what your point is, on this, but want to ask in order to be sure.

Are you saying that you believe the "1335 [BLESSED] day" is counted from "Day 1" and runs to some point just past what we would call the MID-point of the 7-yr Tribulation? I'm trying to ascertain if this is your view, or if I'm mis-reading you. = )




I see Dan12:12's "BLESSED" day (1335) to correspond to about 7 or 8 other "BLESSED" passages... ones like:
Rev19:9 "BLESSED," Rev16:14-16 "BLESSED," and Matt24:43-47's "BLESSED" which is parallel to Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44's "BLESSED" (and where He'd also said, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347; same G347 word used in Matt8:11 and parallel], aka the MK age), and Matt25:31-34's "BLESSED," etc, etc... ALL of which contexts speak to His Second Coming to the earth / "return" to the earth at the Rev19 point in the chronology... rather than to a point in time somewhat prior to that (if that's what you were getting at, but I wasn't real sure if that was your meaning regarding the "1335 blessed day"). Note: I'm not suggesting some "75 days" past the end point, as some suggest, though.

Thoughts?




[note: I'm a pre-tribber with regard to "rapture" timing, but that doesn't effect the topic under present discussion, regarding Dan12:12's "1335 blessed day" as to "WHEN" that particular point IN TIME occurs, which is what I'm asking you about in particular, as to your view on its timing in relation to the rest of the 2520-day period. = ) Thanks!]

Let me clarify if possible:
From the time the antichrist makes his covenant with many nations starts the clock from Daniel 9:27 --Total days 2520
Middle of 7 years or 1260 days antichrist sits in temple claing to be God . Dan 9;27 and 2 Thess 2:4
30 days later Abomination of desolation is placed. Dan 12:11 1290 days
45 days later is the Blessed day Dan 12:12-- 1335 days--rapture/ resurrection for Trib saints. Also called the Day of the Lord
Tribulation continues thru bowl judgements for 1185 days, time antichrist rules
Lord returns at end of Tribulation and the Sheep/Goat judgememnt takes place to determine who enters the kingdom in the flesh

Hope this helps

 

[Omegatime]

Jesus spoke of this Blessed Day in Matthew 24

32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

The only feast day that can fullfill the spring event is Pentecost

When Peter stood up and spoke on Pentecost he tied the Day of the Lord to Pentecost. ( For Tribulation saints )

the sun shall be turned into darkness
and the moon into blood,
before the day of the Lord comes,
the great and glorious day.

Prophet Joel said: Great and Terrible Day of the Lord
Apostle Peter said: Great and Glorious Day of the Lord

One this day of Pentecost it will be both----------------Terrible for those left behind to enter the bowl judgements,
Glorious for those taken in the rapture/resurrection

Lord's wisdom and knowledge astounds me for not every year does 1335 days work out to begin on feast Trumpets and Daniels Blessed day ends the 1335th day on Pentecost. Only one time in near future can this happen and that is in the fall of 2025. Lord is the date setter and if you believe then give the glory to the Lord. And this knowledge is not for the church saints but those who enter the tribulation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the Greek, it is referring to "the end of the AGE [singular]" (not the end of the "world");

... what follows that is "the age [singular] to come" which Jesus had just spoken of in chapter 12 (aka the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "return" to the earth at Rev19), chpt 12 v. 32... and which He elaborates upon elsewhere (for example, His two-chapter response to the Q they LATER posed to Him about such, in Matt24:3 re: "the end [singular] of the AGE [singular]").




This context ^ is talking about people who will be "still alive" at the time being spoken of (at "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"); It is not talking about anyone being "resurrected" from the dead, here in this text.

I'm not suggesting that no one will be resurrected at that time (for Daniel 12:13 and Job 19:25-27 and John 11:25-27 and 1Cor15:23c [not 23b] and Rev20:4b speak of this, that there WILL be); I'm just pointing out that the Matthew 13 context in particular is speaking to the matter of "still-living persons" at the time-slot being spoken of (the point in time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth / return to the earth, Rev19); "Wheat" and "tares" are what are standing on / growing upon the earth, in other words. It's not covering the Subject of "resurrection [from the dead]" here.

ahh thanks for explaining why the scriptures don’t really say what they say

 

[Nehemiah6]

One this day of Pentecost it will be both----------------Terrible for those left behind to enter the bowl judgements, Glorious for those taken in the rapture/resurrection

Just because certain prophecies are juxtaposed with each other does not mean that we make a mishmash of them. And then you have inserted the Rapture where it does not belong, adding further to the confusion.

Joel has two separate events juxtaposed to each other -- the day of the LORD (a time of terrible divine judgments) and the day of Pentecost (a time of tremendous blessings). But you seem to be making a mishmash of many prophesies. Pentecost was in AD 30. But the day of the LORD is in the future. Possibly AD 2030.