Is belief a choice?

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nogard

Senior Member
Aug 21, 2013
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Just wanted to start up a conversation on whether or not we as humans can choose to believe or disbelieve whatever we want. It seems like on the surface, the answer would be yes, but that might not be the case.

A common example people use when describing how belief is involuntary is the experience of gravity. Ask someone to disbelieve in the experience of gravity for a moment; not pretend that if they let go of something it won't fall, mind you, but believe such a thing won't fall. The same goes for asking someone to re-believe in Santa Claus. You can pretend to believe, but you can't actually make yourself believe it, even if you wanted to. Because you know deep down that gravity exists and Santa Claus does not.

A key part of belief is an inherent shock when a belief is violated. If there is no shock when something violates a belief, then either there is no belief, or there is an additional mitigating belief. When beliefs are violated, one's brain is forced to either assimilate the new information (make it fit the mold) or accommodate it (make the mold fit it). Afterwards, a new belief is formed. The reason this is forced rather than a choice is what is seen cannot be unseen. What is learned cannot be unlearned. One cannot go back to a belief they no longer hold true.

So I guess when it comes to salvation, how free are we really to believe or not believe?

"No man can control his belief. You cannot believe as you wish. You must believe as you must." - Robert G. Ingersall
 
To start we must have choice, free choice or we would be just robots, and with free choice we can choose to believe or disbelieve things, sure it is often determined by the evidence but it is still a choice. some people in Jesus's day seen the evidence that He preformed and believed others disbelieved. So yes we do have a choice but that choice is determined by many other beliefs, experiences, facts, and lies. Jesus told us to take the gospel to the world so that the truth can be given and people can choose to believe. Joh_8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
 
Belief, as opposed to blind faith, requires a certain amount of evidence. For instance I believe my flight to another city will arrive safely because there is sufficient evidence in my mind that demonstrates air travel is safe. Belief in God is no different. It's all about the evidence.
 
nogard said:
Just wanted to start up a conversation on whether or not we as humans can choose to believe or disbelieve whatever we want. It seems like on the surface, the answer would be yes, but that might not be the case.

A common example people use when describing how belief is involuntary is the experience of gravity. Ask someone to disbelieve in the experience of gravity for a moment; not pretend that if they let go of something it won't fall, mind you, but believe such a thing won't fall. The same goes for asking someone to re-believe in Santa Claus. You can pretend to believe, but you can't actually make yourself believe it, even if you wanted to. Because you know deep down that gravity exists and Santa Claus does not.

A key part of belief is an inherent shock when a belief is violated. If there is no shock when something violates a belief, then either there is no belief, or there is an additional mitigating belief. When beliefs are violated, one's brain is forced to either assimilate the new information (make it fit the mold) or accommodate it (make the mold fit it). Afterwards, a new belief is formed. The reason this is forced rather than a choice is what is seen cannot be unseen. What is learned cannot be unlearned. One cannot go back to a belief they no longer hold true.

So I guess when it comes to salvation, how free are we really to believe or not believe?

"No man can control his belief. You cannot believe as you wish. You must believe as you must." - Robert G. Ingersall
Click to expand...

Hold the phone......There's No Santa Claus?
 
I do not know about evidence. Since I was very young, I just knew that I knew Jesus was real. I had no evidence. Do you suppose it was the work of the Holy Spirit upon my heart? Must have been.

Now, I can choose daily what I do with that belief - have a much deeper relationship with Jesus or keep it status quo.

But I just know that he is real. I have a Jewish friend who years ago when someone told her about Jesus, she also said she just knew that he was real. She just knew.
 
Sometimes there isn't 100% evidence for things, did Peter have 100% evidence that he would walk on the water? God hasn't taken away every doubt because then people wouldn't be able to disbelieve, but he has given enough (heaps of) evidence for us to believe. Like a muscle we can strengthen beliefs or weaken them by all our choices.
 
nogard said:
Just wanted to start up a conversation on whether or not we as humans can choose to believe or disbelieve whatever we want. It seems like on the surface, the answer would be yes, but that might not be the case.
Click to expand...
Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
Dan 3:18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
They didn't know if God was going to save them or not but they choose to serve Him. When everything is against us and all the evidence says we are not going to make it we can still choose to believe or disbelieve.
 
The natural mind is at enmity with God. It takes a work of God on man's heart to bring them to the point of believing.
But ultimately it is the person who chooses to believes.

Romans 8:7-8 KJVS
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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nogard said:
Just wanted to start up a conversation on whether or not we as humans can choose to believe or disbelieve whatever we want. It seems like on the surface, the answer would be yes, but that might not be the case.

A common example people use when describing how belief is involuntary is the experience of gravity. Ask someone to disbelieve in the experience of gravity for a moment; not pretend that if they let go of something it won't fall, mind you, but believe such a thing won't fall. The same goes for asking someone to re-believe in Santa Claus. You can pretend to believe, but you can't actually make yourself believe it, even if you wanted to. Because you know deep down that gravity exists and Santa Claus does not.

A key part of belief is an inherent shock when a belief is violated. If there is no shock when something violates a belief, then either there is no belief, or there is an additional mitigating belief. When beliefs are violated, one's brain is forced to either assimilate the new information (make it fit the mold) or accommodate it (make the mold fit it). Afterwards, a new belief is formed. The reason this is forced rather than a choice is what is seen cannot be unseen. What is learned cannot be unlearned. One cannot go back to a belief they no longer hold true.

So I guess when it comes to salvation, how free are we really to believe or not believe?

"No man can control his belief. You cannot believe as you wish. You must believe as you must." - Robert G. Ingersall
Click to expand...

The answer is not found in man's secular philosophy and reason. It is only found in God's Word.

See Acts 9 about Saul who later became Apostle Paul, and then ask yourself, did Jesus take away Saul's doubt that Jesus is The Christ? or did Saul just nonchalantly decide to believe on Jesus while on the way to Damascus to hunt down Christians for the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem, and bring them to Jerusalem to be tried by the Jews?
 
I'm with you in this....it seems we all "know" within us that Jesus is there and He is real. We can get our minds so carnally active that it suppresses the spirit within man but it will always come back to the surface. The Lord deals with us through our heart.

Joidevivre said:
I do not know about evidence. Since I was very young, I just knew that I knew Jesus was real. I had no evidence. Do you suppose it was the work of the Holy Spirit upon my heart? Must have been.

Now, I can choose daily what I do with that belief - have a much deeper relationship with Jesus or keep it status quo.

But I just know that he is real. I have a Jewish friend who years ago when someone told her about Jesus, she also said she just knew that he was real. She just knew.
Click to expand...
 
The gospel does not demand faith...it supplies it This is why we need to proclaim Jesus and His finished work of grace for us!

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
Grace777x70 said:
The gospel does not demand faith...it supplies it This is why we need to proclaim Jesus and His finished work of grace for us!

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Click to expand...

That's like saying GOD doesn't demand love because he is love. It's a non-sequitur.

GOD demands the application of what he supplies.
 
nogard said:
Is belief a choice?
Click to expand...

Acts 2v21: "...whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved."

Matt 23v37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

OFCOURSE IT IS!

It's called free will! :p
 
The bible says let God be right and every man be a liar. The bible says that His invisible qualities are clearly seen in creation, and therefore mankind is without excuse. The bible counts disbelief the same as disobedience. God is God! We are not going to understand everything that God does. Just because I don't understand the details of something He does doesn't mean I don't believe in Him.

God always leaves room for faith, because without faith it is impossible to please God. And in my experience so far, I found that those who don't want to believe don't want to obey. In their mind if there is no God then there is no right and wrong, and they can do whatever they feel like, denying that there's an eternal consequence. Denying warnings of approaching danger is not wise. That's why the bible says that a fool says in his heart that there is no God. (Keep in mind that even though God has the authority to call someone a fool, we do not).
 
Why does a baby cry when it is born? Because we are naturally designed to react to motivation by the gift of the soul...which... I believe that a good definition of the soul is....
The motivated free will of the conscience is what I understand the soul to be...which can be separated from our first Spirit motivator if necessary...and married to The Holy Spirit motivator which establishes in us a spirit which is holy, complete, and good by measure...and we have an approved spirit of man according to God...made of a heart, soul, mind, strength, earthen vessel, Holy Spirit motivator, and even sin in the flesh is possible to be with us, but we are not that sin in the flesh if we love God.
Matthew 16:25-27Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Luke 16:11-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We have the choice even right now to act upon what Jesus told us concerning the one needful thing.
Trust is what we need regarding the following words.

Luke 10:38-42Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word. 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
Deuteronomy 6:3-5Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
 
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
John 17:6


If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
John 15:19

In a real sense God is saying if you are chosen you respond to Jesus's words. It appears to us we choose to follow, but this is as a result of how we feel about what Jesus is saying.

There are some who appear to hate what God is saying, so in a very real sense they are not chosen.

If you accept the idea that sin corrupts us and turns us into rebellion against God, how could we pick ourselves up and turn ourselves around unless the Lord reached out and changed us. In a very real sense we are the product of our bodies, society and environment, so how much we can actually say we objectively choose is very much up to debate. Some would argue humans have no free will at all, which I would argue against, but there is a line of logic that would suggest this is true.

I would suggest me choosing to write they words is very much my choice, which suggests I am exercising choice to a real degree, and it is often avoiding guilt for sin that motivates the argument we are victims of forces outside our control.
 
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