Is Catholicism the Oldest Christian Faith?

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UnitedWithChrist

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Why do people stray from it if it were the original Christian doctrine? How does one know one's Christian walk is true with thousands of Christian sects each purporting to be the truth and damning other sects to hell? Why do we put so much faith in our own opinions and call it God's opinion? Doesn't Christianity claim value to humility? How does thinking our opinion is God's opinion classify as such?
The Roman bishopric was one of several bishoprics. The five major ones were Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria. Rome claimed supremacy much later than the apostolic church. Their claims were not shared by the Orthodox churches, and a good understanding of church history will reveal the truth concerning this. Rome has a very inflated opinion of itself.

Roman Catholicism does NOT have the original Christian doctrine. One might be able to say that the "catholic church" had the original doctrine, because the word "catholic" meant, in essence, the true church as opposed to heretics like the Arians. Actually the phrase "Roman Catholic" is a bit strange because the "catholic church" was composed of much more than Rome. But this would require some understanding of history.

Regarding the number of Christian sects, some of them are cults that deny core Christian teachings. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, as well, deny at least one core teaching which is justification by faith alone. I would not categorize either as cults, but as "world religions".

Here are the core Christian teachings from the evangelical perspective:

1) the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ (Jesus is God and glorified man)
2) monotheism or the belief in one God
3) the doctrine of the Trinity
4) justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone
5) the inspiration and sole authority of Scripture as the rule of faith
6) substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross (Jesus died in the place of the believer)
7) original sin
8) virgin birth of Jesus
9) bodily resurrection of Jesus
10) eternal reward of the righteous and eternal punishment of the unrighteous

There are theologies that violate core Christian teachings, without which a sound understanding of Jesus Christ and his ministry cannot be maintained. Roman Catholicism does this with regards to justification by faith alone, and with regards to Scripture alone (points 4 and 5).

According to Paul denying that justification is by faith alone is a damning heresy. I believe Rome qualifies as essentially the same heresy thing as the Judaizers the Galatian letter warned us about. It is a man-made, ritualistic system which claims that the observance of sacraments, amongst other things, contribute to the salvation of the believer.

There is an implicit claim that Christ's sacrifice was not enough, and it is maintained through various ways...for instance, the "treasury of merit" that can be released to help contribute toward the believers' salvation, upon the discretion of the Church. This "treasury of merit" contains the benefits of virtuous acts of Mary and the saints, which go above their personal obligations and therefore can be drawn upon by the sinner in order to justify them before God. This is an implicit denial of the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice and his righteousness for those who are united with him through faith.

Do I believe all Roman Catholics are unsaved? No. I think some are saved but others are simply ignorant of true Christian doctrine. I believe God will lead them out of it. One of my friends is Roman Catholic and believes in imputed righteousness.


Regarding our "opinions" the above doctrines are clearly taught in Scripture so they are not a matter of opinion. They are a matter of biblical teaching. Rome's opinions are heretical, so I am not sure why you would bring up "opinions".

In fact, perhaps your struggle is a low regard for God's word, or perhaps you haven't studied it well enough to see that the above are clearly taught in Scripture.

Another issue with Rome is that it believes tradition trumps God's word, when it comes down to it. The Roman church interprets Scripture for the laity, and if the laity sees clear contradictions, they basically go with what the Church teaches, if they are a consistent, obedient Roman Catholic. So, Scripture is not the ultimate authority, but it is the Roman Catholic church's interpretation of Scripture.

It was the same way in a cult I belonged to. The founder was the one who interpreted Scripture, and if you challenged his interpretation, you would no longer be welcome and would be disfellowshipped. You had to evaluate Scripture through his interpretative lenses.
 

Grandpa

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No offense grandpa but to reduce what Jesus did to Simon-Peter to nothing is.
I just don't think that the Lord is elevating Peter to Pope here.

I think the Lord is saying that He will build His church on the fact that He is the Christ and His Father reveals this to His People.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I just don't think that the Lord is elevating Peter to Pope here.

I think the Lord is saying that He will build His church on the fact that He is the Christ and His Father reveals this to His People.
Yes, and besides this apostolic succession is a false doctrine.

There is no teaching in Scripture that affirms it.

By the way, the Orthodox church claims a very similar thing in regards to Paul and their descent from him, as he was the primary evangelist in their areas. So, they claim their doctrine is more pure in some respects than the Roman Catholic church, and even claim to be the true believers.

I will grant that the Orthodox church has a few teachings that are reflective of important doctrines like union with Christ, but their doctrine is not as clear on that issue as the Reformed church. In saying this, I am not claiming the Reformed church is the true faith, but I am saying that their teaching in many areas regarding salvation is very clear and correct, including union with Christ.

Both Orthodox and Roman Catholic are ritualistic and not reflective of sound doctrine. Maybe at one time the rituals had teaching value in an illiterate society, but at this point, they are similar to the OT ceremonial law, and thus I believe both organizatons are in essence Judaizing.

Dispensationalism and other factors have clouded the understanding of other evangelical churches in regards to this doctrine.
 

Grandpa

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Yes, and besides this apostolic succession is a false doctrine.

There is no teaching in Scripture that affirms it.

By the way, the Orthodox church claims a very similar thing in regards to Paul and their descent from him, as he was the primary evangelist in their areas. So, they claim their doctrine is more pure in some respects than the Roman Catholic church, and even claim to be the true believers.

I will grant that the Orthodox church has a few teachings that are reflective of important doctrines like union with Christ, but their doctrine is not as clear on that issue as the Reformed church. In saying this, I am not claiming the Reformed church is the true faith, but I am saying that their teaching in many areas regarding salvation is very clear and correct, including union with Christ.

Both Orthodox and Roman Catholic are ritualistic and not reflective of sound doctrine. Maybe at one time the rituals had teaching value in an illiterate society, but at this point, they are similar to the OT ceremonial law, and thus I believe both organizatons are in essence Judaizing.

Dispensationalism and other factors have clouded the understanding of other evangelical churches in regards to this doctrine.
Yes, but it sure is easier to take advantage of the masses when you tell them that God has passed His Authority on to the RCC church.

I think its pretty hilarious when people who think they belong to the One True Church argue with other people who think they belong to the One True Church. I used to like to show the One True Church people the error in their interpretation of certain scriptures they pointed to to make the claim of being the One True Church. But I don't see them around too much anymore.
 

notuptome

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Yes, but it sure is easier to take advantage of the masses when you tell them that God has passed His Authority on to the RCC church.

I think its pretty hilarious when people who think they belong to the One True Church argue with other people who think they belong to the One True Church. I used to like to show the One True Church people the error in their interpretation of certain scriptures they pointed to to make the claim of being the One True Church. But I don't see them around too much anymore.
Jesus did not found an organization called the one true church. Jesus birthed an organism that is the one true church. An organism that has Jesus as its head. An organism not made with mortar and bricks but made of born again believers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Truth entered time and history. Incarnational and spoken, a visible audible, eternal reality.

Eternal is eternal. Not subject to the forces of corruption.

Eternal Truth was heard from the mouths of Christians with no contamination of error so they could be guided to All Truth.

A promise to the Church so that Truth would continue to be Incarnational in the world and be guided to All Truth when He returns.

Truth is an eternal reality that entered time and human history.

Truth is eternally Incarnational, made visible and audible by the human body and remains so in the community that surrounds Christ since the beginning. They are given the gifts and promises to carry out the mission to make Jesus seen and heard over the whole world.

Truth contaminated with error cannot be guided to All Truth. It is no longer Truth. A deeper more encompassing understanding is impossible.

If Truth no longer belongs to an Incarnational community of believers on earth as it did in the beginning, how can the Holy Spirit guide anyone to All Truth?
 
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I just don't think that the Lord is elevating Peter to Pope here.

I think the Lord is saying that He will build His church on the fact that He is the Christ and His Father reveals this to His People.
Not trying to be snarky but your second statement made my point.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Truth entered time and history. Incarnational and spoken, a visible audible, eternal reality.

Eternal is eternal. Not subject to the forces of corruption.

Eternal Truth was heard from the mouths of Christians with no contamination of error so they could be guided to All Truth.

A promise to the Church so that Truth would continue to be Incarnational in the world and be guided to All Truth when He returns.

Truth is an eternal reality that entered time and human history.

Truth is eternally Incarnational, made visible and audible by the human body and remains so in the community that surrounds Christ since the beginning. They are given the gifts and promises to carry out the mission to make Jesus seen and heard over the whole world.

Truth contaminated with error cannot be guided to All Truth. It is no longer Truth. A deeper more encompassing understanding is impossible.

If Truth no longer belongs to an Incarnational community of believers on earth as it did in the beginning, how can the Holy Spirit guide anyone to All Truth?
As I have said, the Roman bishopric made bold claims concerning itself being the interpreters of Scripture that are false. Additionally, they claim that there is an Oral Law outside of the Bible which is necessary to understand Christianity.

Jews claim the same thing by the way.

Evangelical Christianity teaches that Scripture alone is the sole authority. The teaching of the true church is based on Scripture. Since Rome teaches various unscriptural doctrines, it proves itself to be false.

Additionally, we might bring up the fact that Rome has consistently hidden perverts within its ranks. It isn't just that perversions occurred within the priesthood. This is to be expected since predators will seek access to victims through such means. But, Rome actually hid these incidences continually, and subjected innocent children to awful abuse. In fact, they placed such offenders in positions where these abuses could continue, even when they knew about them.

Finally, Rome must delude herself into thinking that the pronouncements of the councils are infallible, yet changed her mind regarding Protestants. It is very clear from earlier pronouncements that Rome anathematized Protestants, but now she claims that they are estranged brethren. They can't have it both ways. Either the council rulings which anathematized Protestants were in error, or their position regarding inerrancy of the councils is false.

Well, I guess that doesn't really matter either with the Pope, because he claims that the atheist father of Roman Catholic children must be saved, since he allowed them to be baptized.
 
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I have said, the Roman bishopric made bold claims concerning itself being the interpreters of Scripture that are false.
Yeah, well the Truth belongs to them.
Additionally, they claim that there is an Oral Law outside of the Bible which is necessary to understand Christianity.
That's Oral Tradition. An oral tradition happens and then it's written. We call that Sacred Scripture.
Why would the oral expression of the Wordend when it's written?
Jews claim the same thing by the way.
Not the same thing.
Evangelical Christianity teaches that Scripture alone is the sole authority. The teaching of the true church is based on Scripture. Since Rome teaches various unscriptural doctrines, it proves itself to be false.
Scripture is a product of the true Church.
Evangelical Christianity teaches that Scripture alone is the sole authority. Th
The true Church is like the original Church. There was a hierarchy of chosen men to exercise the judgements of the Church. There was a teaching that was developing guided by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel was heard and then there was all that written down that became scriptures.
Additionally, we might bring up the fact that Rome has consistently hidden perverts within its ranks. It isn't just that perversions occurred within the priesthood. This is to be expected since predators will seek access to victims through such means. But, Rome actually hid these incidences continually, and subjected innocent children to awful abuse. In fact, they placed such offenders in positions where these abuses could continue, even when they
you don't have to tell me I'm living it. You're on the outside looking in. There is much to say. Evil men either ignorantly or purposely extending the stench of Satan. Not very many Bishops in the Catholic Church today have faith in Christ. Many many want to follow what rises up from the sea.
Finally, Rome must delude herself into thinking that the pronouncements of the councils are infallible, yet changed her mind regarding Protestants. It is very clear from earlier pronouncements that Rome anathematized Protestants, but now she claims that they are esThe ranged brethren. They can't have it both ways. Either the council rulings which anathematized Protestants were in error, or their position regarding inerrancy of the councils is false.
The Protestants that are responsible are the ones who originated the protests and broke away. Today's protestants are just living the Faith handed down to them.
Well, I guess that doesn't really matter either with the Pope, because he claims that the atheist father of Roman Catholic children must be saved, since he allowed them to be baptized.
Fortunately the Church isn't judged by those who disobey or don't know it's teaching.
 

Grandpa

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Not trying to be snarky but your second statement made my point.
Do you think the Lord gave Peter the big hat at this time as well?

Or did Peter have to make his own?

In the "oral tradition" what did the other popes say about it?


There's no point in even being a pope if you don't get the big hat. And the big chair at the top of the steps above everyone else.
 
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Do you think the Lord gave Peter the big hat at this time as well?
How do you u suppose Simon knew Jesus as a 'Son'? The Father lifted Simon up to Himself and Simon knew Jesus as a Son. In front of Simon a door opened and he had the keys to it. The first Pope as expected was a marked man as were the next dozen or so. Having Church authority in the fist centuries was a death sentence and no one sought out positions of authority. Many refused requests to be Bishops not wanting to be a target.
the "oral tradition" what did the other popes say about it?
Over time and many disputes it was observed that disputes were settled when the Bishop of Rome spoke on the matter. The other Bishops recognized the work of the Holy Spirit in the Roman See and bowed their heads in obedience knowing the infallibility of the Apostles rested on the Bishop of Rome.
There's no point in even being a pope if you don't get the big hat. And the big chair at the top of the steps above everyone else.
That kind of desire became a problem later on.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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The
Yeah, well the Truth belongs to them. That's Oral Tradition. An oral tradition happens and then it's written. We call that Sacred Scripture.
Why would the oral expression of the Wordend when it's written?

Not the same thing. Scripture is a product of the true Church.
The true Church is like the original Church. There was a hierarchy of chosen men to exercise the judgements of the Church. There was a teaching that was developing guided by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel was heard and then there was all that written down that became scriptures.you don't have to tell me I'm living it. You're on the outside looking in. There is much to say. Evil men either ignorantly or purposely extending the stench of Satan. Not very many Bishops in the Catholic Church today have faith in Christ. Many many want to follow what rises up from the sea. The Protestants that are responsible are the ones who originated the protests and broke away. Today's protestants are just living the Faith handed down to them.
Fortunately the Church isn't judged by those who disobey or don't know it's teaching.
If the claim is that the Roman Catholic Church is, in essence, the apostolic church, this is a false claim. It is one rogue bishopric who began to proclaim itself to be the ruling bishopric. Surely you must know that the apostolic church was composed of various bishoprics, and that Rome began to assert dominance over time.

By the way, I really encourage folks to read a good church history such as Nick Needham's 4 volume set, 2000 Years of Christ's Power, to see that the Roman Catholic view of church history is very boastful and prideful. My understanding is that Kenneth Scott Latourette's two-volume set is much better at teaching about the Orthodox churches as well. This helps one to better see where evangelical Christianity fits into the picture.

Since Paul declared those who reject justification by faith alone as heretics, we need to understand that there is a solid basis for considering both Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to be heretical. One cannot knowingly reject the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to the believer on the basis of faith alone and be considered a believer. And, I believe Rome knowingly rejects this, whether a specific Roman Cathoic does or not. Orthodoxy is the same.

Works flow from a real faith as fruit, but faith and works do not lead to salvation. This is a fundamental doctrine that is rejected, and if God rejected Israel for faulty works-righteousness systems, he rejects Rome and the Orthodox churches for the same thing. Read Romans 9-11 in this regard. In fact, read the book of Romans and Galatians. This is the antidote to papist and Orthodox teachings.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Yeah, well the Truth belongs to them. That's Oral Tradition. An oral tradition happens and then it's written. We call that Sacred Scripture.
Why would the oral expression of the Wordend when it's written?

Not the same thing. Scripture is a product of the true Church.
The true Church is like the original Church. There was a hierarchy of chosen men to exercise the judgements of the Church. There was a teaching that was developing guided by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel was heard and then there was all that written down that became scriptures.you don't have to tell me I'm living it. You're on the outside looking in. There is much to say. Evil men either ignorantly or purposely extending the stench of Satan. Not very many Bishops in the Catholic Church today have faith in Christ. Many many want to follow what rises up from the sea. The Protestants that are responsible are the ones who originated the protests and broke away. Today's protestants are just living the Faith handed down to them.
Fortunately the Church isn't judged by those who disobey or don't know it's teaching.
If the claim is that the Roman Catholic Church is, in essence, the apostolic church, this is a false claim. It is one rogue bishopric who began to proclaim itself to be the ruling bishopric. Surely you must know that the apostolic church was composed of various bishoprics, and that Rome began to assert dominance over time.

By the way, I really encourage folks to read a good church history such as Nick Needham's 4 volume set, 2000 Years of Christ's Power, to see that the Roman Catholic view of church history is very boastful and prideful. My understanding is that Kenneth Scott Latourette's two-volume set is much better at teaching about the Orthodox churches as well. This helps one to better see where evangelical Christianity fits into the picture.

Since Paul declared those who reject justification by faith alone as heretics, we need to understand that there is a solid basis for considering both Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to be heretical. One cannot knowingly reject the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to the believer on the basis of faith alone and be considered a believer. And, I believe Rome knowingly rejects this, whether a specific Roman Catholic does or not. Orthodoxy is the same.

Works flow from a real faith as fruit, but faith and works do not lead to salvation. This is a fundamental doctrine that is rejected, and if God rejected Israel for faulty works-righteousness systems, he rejects Rome and the Orthodox churches for the same thing. Read Romans 9-11 in this regard. In fact, read the book of Romans and Galatians. This is the antidote to papist and Orthodox teachings.

By the way, I think some Roman Catholic and Orthodox believers might be saved, but it is due to their ignorance on this matter and not due to their willful rejection. Those who willfully reject justification by faith alone and the necessity of the imputed righteousness of Christ being applied to believers are anathema according to Scripture.

And, Scripture does not get its legitimacy from the Roman Catholic church. The Church recognized Scripture as God's word long before the Roman bishopric made any claims about this. Notice I said "recognized". God's word is God's word. The church can only recognizes it as such. God's word doesn't become God's word because the Church declares it as such, as if the Church is supreme over God and must affirm it. This false view would mean that the Church is the supreme authority even over God, and that is a claim the Roman Catholic church has made. There were canonical lists which were very accurate long before Rome began to assert its dominance over Western believers.

And, if you study history carefully, Rome's claim to be the authority was not accepted by the Eastern believers. There was constant antagonism over this claim. You have to be a historical moron to claim that this dominance was accepted for all believers, Eastern and Western, over any period of time. Once the Church saw what Rome was up to, there was strong resistance and rejection expressed throughout history. Roman Catholics are delusional to ignore this, and simply drinking the papist Kool-aid if they believe it.

Like I said, read some good volumes on church history to learn the truth on this matter. And, realize that anyone who claims they are justified by anything other than faith is selling a false gospel. And, realize that there is no other source of righteousness than the imputed righteousness of Christ being given to the believer, that makes one righteous in God's sight. That is because God requires perfect obedience, and the only way a sinner can receive that is through imputation and not through actual performance. It is true that the real believer is being conformed to the image of Christ, and that he is united with Christ in a life-giving union, but this is not the basis for his claim to justifying righteousness, because no one's obedience is perfect. These are fundamental doctrines Rome denies, therefore they have a false works righteousness system that will never justify them.

There is a difference between the "catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church". As I have said, the Roman Catholic church is one rogue bishopric, which became an apostate, heretical church which denies biblical truth and exalts false doctrines that supplant the teaching that it is the imputation of Christ's righteousness that justifies the believer in God's sight, not any ritualistic system. Their belief system is basically the same as the Judaizer error, which was to view circumcision and the rituals of the Mosaic law as the instruments of justification.
 
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The


If the claim is that the Roman Catholic Church is, in essence, the apostolic church, this is a false claim. It is one rogue bishopric who began to proclaim itself to be the ruling bishopric. Surely you must know that the apostolic church was composed of various bishoprics, and that Rome began to assert dominance over time.

By the way, I really encourage folks to read a good church history such as Nick Needham's 4 volume set, 2000 Years of Christ's Power, to see that the Roman Catholic view of church history is very boastful and prideful. My understanding is that Kenneth Scott Latourette's two-volume set is much better at teaching about the Orthodox churches as well. This helps one to better see where evangelical Christianity fits into the picture.

Since Paul declared those who reject justification by faith alone as heretics, we need to understand that there is a solid basis for considering both Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity to be heretical. One cannot knowingly reject the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to the believer on the basis of faith alone and be considered a believer. And, I believe Rome knowingly rejects this, whether a specific Roman Cathoic does or not. Orthodoxy is the same.

Works flow from a real faith as fruit, but faith and works do not lead to salvation. This is a fundamental doctrine that is rejected, and if God rejected Israel for faulty works-righteousness systems, he rejects Rome and the Orthodox churches for the same thing. Read Romans 9-11 in this regard. In fact, read the book of Romans and Galatians. This is the antidote to papist and Orthodox teachings.
Faith alone.....reminds me of the Muslim proclamation" God is One" as if that were in dispute. No doubt a protest against the Trinity. That there is one God is naturally apprehended by the intellect. No Divine Revelation necessary for that.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Faith alone.....reminds me of the Muslim proclamation" God is One" as if that were in dispute. No doubt a protest against the Trinity. That there is one God is naturally apprehended by the intellect. No Divine Revelation necessary for that.
What are you talking about ?

Rome rejects that the righteousness of Christ is received by the believer by faith alone, and is the basis for their justification.

Additionally, the Trinity is revealed by the Bible as truth. It is not naturally apprehended by the intellect. It is a matter of revelation.

Do you seriously think that man, apart from biblical revelation, automatically believes there is one God, yet three Persons, each co-eternal and co-essential?

And, how does the concept of justification by faith alone have anything to do with the Trinity? It's like you're speaking gibberish.
 
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What are you talking about ?

Rome rejects that the righteousness of Christ is received by the believer by faith alone, and is the basis for their justification.

Additionally, the Trinity is revealed by the Bible as truth. It is not naturally apprehended by the intellect. It is a matter of revelation.

Do you seriously think that man, apart from biblical revelation, automatically believes there is one God, yet three Persons, each co-eternal and co-essential?

And, how does the concept of justification by faith alone have anything to do with the Trinity? It's like you're speaking gibberish.
Knowing God as three persons requires that God reveal it to man. Natural reason can reach an understanding of God as one, none beside Him creator of all that is. In fact man did.

Why do you put the Word 'alone ' after faith?. Why not the simpler 'by faith'?
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Knowing God as three persons requires that God reveal it to man. Natural reason can reach an understanding of God as one, none beside Him creator of all that is. In fact man did.

Why do you put the Word 'alone ' after faith?. Why not the simpler 'by faith'?
I believe, It was Luther, in protest of RCC that Inpired by the devil to sale forgiveness
 

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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That kind of desire became a problem later on.
You think that the Lord wouldn't have known that IF He made Peter a pope that would cause MAJOR problems later on?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Is there an exception somewhere for popes? In the bible, I mean. Not oral traditions made up by the RCC...
 
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You think that the Lord wouldn't have known that IF He made Peter a pope that would cause MAJOR problems later on?
Worldly desires caused scandal but the Church isn't judged by those who disobey what it teaches.
He knew creating Woman would cause major problems later on. Woman is a greater good.
 

Grandpa

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Worldly desires caused scandal but the Church isn't judged by those who disobey what it teaches.
He knew creating Woman would cause major problems later on. Woman is a greater good.
As soon as there was a pope there was a problem.

Christ didn't make anyone into a pope.

Peoples worldly desire for power made people into popes.