Is cessation an observation or theology?

[presidente]

Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.

This is kind of a fuzzy argument. Apostles and prophets are in the foundation of the church. But the New Testament teaches that in the assembly, all may prophecy, to let the prophets speak, two or three, etc.

Also, the laying of foundations in Paul's ministry was an ongoing thing. He brought the gospel to an unreached area, to previously unreached people-- in Corinth in the case where he mentioned it-- laying the foundation that others built upon. Missionaries can still do that sort of thing even into the modern era.

The scriptures teach that the Spirit gives gifts of the Spirit to members of the body of Christ as He wills. The foundation argument seems to be a rather weak argument for arguing that this work of the Spirit is not ongoing.

 

[presidente]

Yep. I should’ve looked up cessation. I was thinking succession. Good points btw.

Spiritual gifts or the US Civil War....

 

[presidente]

If the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit were still active today as it was during the New Testament you would not need to present such silly anecdotal evidence as you are presenting.

There would simply be no debate.

Was the roof of your middle school pulled away to lower those in need of healing? Were the clothes of your healers being grabbed by those in need of healing?

You are only fooling those who want to be fooled.

I see no critical thinking on your part.

You are no different than the Mormons who claim these same abilities.

BTW, the Mormons believe the Pentecostal claims are fake also.

I do not know when the "perfect" came or what is was but it has certainly come.

I can say that probably in _most_ Pentecostal churches I have attended, I haven't heard the pastor claim the ability to perform miracles. Generally, Pentecostal pastors believe God works miracles and that he can do them through people.

Also, the idea that first century apostles performed miracles at will.... I suspect many Pentecostals do not see it that way. Even with the apostles, their ability to do miracles was cosntrained if they did nto have faith to do the miracle. Peter did walk on water, but he doubted adn he sank.

There is also the idea that miracles were done 'at will'... which I am guessing might be your viewpoint. Do you think the Philip could translate himself, teleporting wherever he wanted at will? What about Peter? After Acts 2, if he wanted to go get a cheeze pizza from the city of the Gadarenes, could he just lace up his Nikes and go for a quick run across the Sea of Galillee to go get it? If he wanted to preach on the other side of the Jordan River, did he just run on top of the Jordan River?

Why did Peter pray before raising Dorcas from the dead? Why bother with that if he could just raise her up, then walk over to the graveyard and clear it out.

Paul had some kind of infirmity _early_ in his ministry, such that the Galatians would have been willing to give him their own eye, but was doing great miracles later. Apparently, miracles and healing weren't totally an 'at will' thing for him unless he just wanted to be sick and keep his friends sick.

Also, you have a naive view of the world if you think that if someone is healed or a miracle occurs that everyone will just believe it. Do you really think if these miracles people tell you about are true that you will believe it? Obviously, that isn't happening. And an atheist newsperson might be equally skeptical to yourself and dismiss reports of miracles without examining them.

Take the case of Delia Knox. She'd been prayed for numerous times. There was an old human interest type piece on her on a news show. She was a pastor's wife, a gospel singer in a wheelchair after an accident left her brain damaged. One day, an evangelist laid hands on her, and they started walking her, at first awkwardly, after she hadn't been neurologically able to walk for 20 years or however long it had been.

A local news channel did cover her story, though, when she visited Ohio and walked up the stairs of her home to meet her parents after not being able to walk for so many years. I was able to find old footage of her in that story on her from before her healing and the news maybe a year after her healing.

But have all the atheists converted? No. Do all people know about this healing? No. Lots of people grew up watching Scooby Doo, and that's their world view.

I don't know what your theological background is, btw, but John Calvin called your interpretation stupid. Some translations say 'foolish.' In his commentary on I Corinthians 13, he argues that the idea that the coming of the perfect occurred before death or the resurrection was foolish or stupid.

 

[Genez]

This is kind of a fuzzy argument. Apostles and prophets are in the foundation of the church. But the New Testament teaches that in the assembly, all may prophecy, to let the prophets speak, two or three, etc.

Yes... Active in those early days of the Church...
But, we are no longer living in the infancy stage of the Church age!

Need some historical context!
Back then, they hardly had any New Testament in writing yet!
Prophesy would fill in blanks that they had no Scripture for yet.
The temporary gifts were designed to take up the slack until 'the perfect" came!

At one point?
Even Paul's gift to heal had come to an end!

Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. ​

Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus." 2 Timothy 4:19-20​

​

​

But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker ​

and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. ​

For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. Indeed he was ill, ​

and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare ​

me sorrow upon sorrow." Philippians 2:25-27​

grace and peace ............

 

[presidente]

Yes... Active in those early days of the Church...
But, we are no longer living in the infancy stage of the Church age!

Need some historical context!
Back then, they hardly had any New Testament in writing yet!
Prophesy would fill in blanks that they had no Scripture for yet.
The temporary gifts were designed to take up the slack until 'the perfect" came!

At one point?
Even Paul's gift to heal had come to an end!

Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. ​

Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus." 2 Timothy 4:19-20​

​

​

But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker ​

and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. ​

For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. Indeed he was ill, ​

and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare ​

me sorrow upon sorrow." Philippians 2:25-27​

grace and peace ............

Yes... Active in those early days of the Church...

But, we are no longer living in the infancy stage of the Church age!

The Bible does not support your assumptions. If you look at I Corinthians 13, Paul compares his speech, knowledge, and understanding, when he was a mature Christian, planting churches, writing scripture. So are you saying that now, you are so mature compared to Paul, that your speech, knowledge, and understanding that his was like a child's.... when he was writings scripture and you are not?

Back then, they hardly had any New Testament in writing yet!

How is that evidence for your point? The church still needs edifying.

Prophesy would fill in blanks that they had no Scripture for yet.

The Bible does not teach this theory of yours that prophecy would cease after the blanks in scripture were filled in.

The temporary gifts were designed to take up the slack until 'the perfect" came!

Paul will be transformed at the resurrection, like other believers.

At one point?

Even Paul's gift to heal had come to an end!

Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus.

Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus." 2 Timothy 4:19-20

But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker

and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs.

For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. Indeed he was ill,

and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare

me sorrow upon sorrow." Philippians 2:25-27

That doesn't prove Paul's gift faded. Early on, he had some kind of infirmity that caused him to first spend time among the Galatians. They would have plucked out their eyes to give him if they could. This was probably on Paul's first missionary journey, but we know that he was in Galatia at least by Acts 16 delivering a letter from the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.

So if you keep reading AFTER this ailment God worked through Paul to do great miracles in Ephesus. And then by the end of Acts, every sick person brought to him on an island was healed.

We also see in the New Testament that at first the Twelve apostles were doing signs and wonders. Aside from a few exorcisms done in Jesus' name, we just read about apostles doing miracles. But the end of Mark predicts them that believe would do miracles. In Acts, we see two of the seven doing miracles. Then Ananias lays hands on Saul of Tarsus and he is healed. There are prophets in the Jerusalem church. Some time later, gifts are distributed among saints. There are prophets in churches in predominantly Gentile areas like Corinth and numerous gifts are present in the congregation.

And as late as the book of Revelation, the two witnesses prophesy.

 

[presidente]

Heard???

This is about the Pentecostals claiming their abilities are ongoing.

Why should we concern ourselves about something that happened on a tropical island in the 1960's.

What about now? What about here?

Are the claims of the Pentecostal physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit ongoing?

That comes off as snobby and ethnocentric. Why is where you live supposed to be the center of the universe. I haven't quite made it to Timor, but I've known a lot of people from there. Why is their location any less important or less real than wherever you live?

If miracles happen from time to time in different locations, they still happen. Your unbiblical attitude about them is problematic. If you have faith in God, then you shouldn't be overly skeptical of God doing the types of things the Bible teaches God does.

If you pray, do you believe God will answer your prayers, or do you approach that topic with such unbelief?

 

[Genez]

The Bible does not support your assumptions. If you look at I Corinthians 13, Paul compares his speech, knowledge, and understanding, when he was a mature Christian, planting churches, writing scripture. So are you saying that now, you are so mature compared to Paul, that your speech, knowledge, and understanding that his was like a child's.... when he was writings scripture and you are not?

I have no idea what you think you saw I said.

 

[presidente]

I have no idea what you think you saw I said.

You mentioned the perfect, and I was referring to the passage:

I Corinthians 13
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[Gideon300]

Why even need tongues today?
Take out your phone and use a translation ap into another language.

Try reading your Bible to find out.

 

[Aussie52]

Remember folks, the Holy Spirit through Paul put, the 'Love Chapter' in the middle of the discussion of spiritual gifts. Let's just pause and think about why that might be. Selah.

 

[Genez]

Try reading your Bible to find out.

When tongues was active they did not have much of the Bible!!!
Not the New Testament...

Are you getting that aspect yet?
The church did not start out with NT Scriptures except for a few epistles.
1 Corinthians and James were the earliest.

The temporary gifts were acting like a stop-gap measure of God's until the "perfect" had come.

During the Bible days.... "Perfect" could mean 'mature' or 'complete.'

We are not trying to put down those who have been sucked into the power-sphere that has taken in certain believers.
We are trying to open your eyes. That is why we read... "Test the spirits."

Love never fails. ​

​

But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, ​

they will be stilled; where there is (the gift of) knowledge, it will pass away." 1 Corinthians 13:8​

Keep in mind:

That is speaking of gifts.
Some would get the gift of knowledge because the church still did not have the completed Scriptures.
It does not mean that knowledge would cease.

grace and peace .........

 

[lrs68]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

Seeing that the Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians that the {Holy Spirit} (being the Restrainer) holding back the coming of the Antichrist [Revelation 13 which connects to the Last Days] means the Holy Spirit is active until at least until the 2 Witnesses fulfill their roles.

The 2 Witnesses need the Holy Spirit to do the miracles written about.

The Churches mentioned in Revelation shows great works that could only happen via the Holy Spirit are active until the Resurrection.

When multiple Holy Spirit filled people are together it allows Yeshua to be in the midst. Of course this couldn't happen if the Holy Spirit had ceased.

So actually Scripture defends Continuation more so than anything else.

The Blind will always be BLIND!

 

[presidente]

When tongues was active they did not have much of the Bible!!!
Not the New Testament...

In the first century when Acts 2 was recorded, they didn't have McDonald's hamburgers. They didn't have a large interational structure for the Christian church.

But speaking in tongues is not meant to be replaced by McDonald's hamburgers, a large international church structure... or the Bible.

The temporary gifts were acting like a stop-gap measure of God's until the "perfect" had come.

During the Bible days.... "Perfect" could mean 'mature' or 'complete.'

Let's look at the actual context of the book and of the passage to figure out what Paul is talking about. Let's look at chapter 1.

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice Paul addresses topics that he will discuss in the book-- utterance and knowledge. He will later write about knowledge puffing up, and various forms of utterance-- such as tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy.

In verse 7 we see that while the chruch is waiting for Jesus Christ to come back, he says that they come behind in no spiritual gift.

That is not align well with the idea of these spiritual gifts ceasing before Jesus comes back.

In verse 8 he mentions the 'end', which translates (a grammatically infected form of) τέλος (telos). This word is also used in I Corinthians 15:24 in a passage about the resurrection. Christ comes back, the resurrection occurs, then comes to END when Christ delivers the kingdom to God.

Now let's also consider topics mentioned and elaborated on in I Corinthians 13-15. Let's compare some topics in the two chapters.

I Cor. 13 I Cor 14-15
tongues------------------------------------>tongues
prophecy---------------------------------->prophecy
the coming of the perfect-------------> the state of the believer in the resurrection
and those transformed at the return of Christ.
The idea that 'that which is perfect' refers to the Bible does not fit the passage either.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.




We are not trying to put down those who have been sucked into the power-sphere that has taken in certain believers.

We are trying to open your eyes. That is why we read... "Test the spirits."



Love never fails.



But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues,

they will be stilled; where there is (the gift of) knowledge, it will pass away." 1 Corinthians 13:8



Keep in mind:



That is speaking of gifts.

Some would get the gift of knowledge because the church still did not have the completed Scriptures.

It does not mean that knowledge would cease.



grace and peace .........

 

[presidente]

When tongues was active they did not have much of the Bible!!!
Not the New Testament...

In the first century when Acts 2 was recorded, they didn't have McDonald's hamburgers. They didn't have a large interational structure for the Christian church.

But speaking in tongues is not meant to be replaced by McDonald's hamburgers, a large international church structure... or the Bible.

The temporary gifts were acting like a stop-gap measure of God's until the "perfect" had come.

During the Bible days.... "Perfect" could mean 'mature' or 'complete.'

Let's look at the actual context of the book and of the passage to figure out what Paul is talking about. Let's look at chapter 1.

5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice Paul addresses topics that he will discuss in the book-- utterance and knowledge. He will later write about knowledge puffing up, and various forms of utterance-- such as tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy.

In verse 7 we see that while the chruch is waiting for Jesus Christ to come back, he says that they come behind in no spiritual gift.

That is not align well with the idea of these spiritual gifts ceasing before Jesus comes back.

In verse 8 he mentions the 'end', which translates (a grammatically infected form of) τέλος (telos). This word is also used in I Corinthians 15:24 in a passage about the resurrection. Christ comes back, the resurrection occurs, then comes to END when Christ delivers the kingdom to God.

Now let's also consider topics mentioned and elaborated on in I Corinthians 13-15. Let's compare some topics in the two chapters.

I Cor. 13 I Cor 14-15
tongues------------------------------------>tongues
prophecy---------------------------------->prophecy
the coming of the perfect-------------> the state of the believer in the resurrection
and those transformed at the return of Christ.
The idea that 'that which is perfect' refers to the Bible does not fit the passage either.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Is your knowledge of God full and complete now, so that you can learn nothing from the apostles? Was Paul's first century understanding like a child's, but yours is like an adult's?

If you have ever had the experience of reading Paul's writings, coming back later and seeing some insight that he clearly had, some knowledge of doctrine, this disproves the interpretation that 'the perfect' refers to New Testament scripture. Clearly you did not know fully just from having the Bible, and it did not make your understanding superior to Paul's.

 

[Genez]

In the first century when Acts 2 was recorded, they didn't have McDonald's hamburgers.

Chapter and verse, please.

Tongues today is a mutation of the original intent.
The mutation is designed to divide the body of Christ.

 

[Genez]

In the first century when Acts 2 was recorded, they didn't have McDonald's hamburgers. They didn't have a large interational structure for the Christian church.

But speaking in tongues is not meant to be replaced by McDonald's hamburgers, a large international church structure... or the Bible.

Note...

Historical Testimony: Key early church theologians, such as Augustine and Chrysostom (4th century), described the gift of tongues as a defunct or obsolete practice by their time.

Then?
Only the in 20th century they were to reappear?


I wonder what went wrong.

 

[presidente]

Note...

Historical Testimony: Key early church theologians, such as Augustine and Chrysostom (4th century), described the gift of tongues as a defunct or obsolete practice by their time.

Then?
Only the in 20th century they were to reappear?


I wonder what went wrong.

There were some references to it afterward. Prophecy was practiced in 2nd century church meetings. It probably got liturgy'ed out as churches moved toward liturgical practices and away from obeying the 'commandments of the Lord' in scripture regarding church meetings, which also address tongues and interpretation. The liturgy eventually did not allow space for it.

Augustine also had other cessationist views early on, but later after witnessing and finding out about many healings, was urging Christians to come forward with more testimonies.

Augustine was a doctrinal innovator.

 

[presidente]

Chapter and verse, please.

Tongues today is a mutation of the original intent.
The mutation is designed to divide the body of Christ.

I don't have a verse that proves it, but
"breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart"

I'll just leave it at that.

Speaking in tongues edifies the speaker, and with interpretation edifies the assembly. The manifestations of the Spirit are for the common good.

 

[Genez]

There were some references to it afterward. Prophecy was practiced in 2nd century church meetings. It probably got liturgy'ed out as churches moved toward liturgical practices and away from obeying the 'commandments of the Lord' in scripture regarding church meetings, which also address tongues and interpretation. The liturgy eventually did not allow space for it.

Augustine also had other cessationist views early on, but later after witnessing and finding out about many healings, was urging Christians to come forward with more testimonies.

Augustine was a doctrinal innovator.

Augustine changed his thinking concerning healings after seeing them happen.
But, there was a vast difference between the gift of healing, and having the power of prayer where God was sovereignly causing a healing.

I was healed after being prayed over in a church service.
But no one there had the gift of healing.

When Peter had the gift?
People would be healed by merely having his shadow touching them as he walked by.

Now the following was the *gift* of healing.

As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats
so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.
Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and
those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed." Acts 5:15-16​

Instantaneous healings and demons fleeing. It did not depend upon the faith of the one being healed.

 

[Genez]

There were some references to it afterward. Prophecy was practiced in 2nd century church meetings. It probably got liturgy'ed out as churches moved toward liturgical practices and away from obeying the 'commandments of the Lord' in scripture regarding church meetings, which also address tongues and interpretation. The liturgy eventually did not allow space for it.

Augustine also had other cessationist views early on, but later after witnessing and finding out about many healings, was urging Christians to come forward with more testimonies.

Augustine was a doctrinal innovator.

The ending for the gifts in the Greek text had different points of ending.
They were not supposed to all end simultaneously.
When I get home later I hope to get the details needed to reveal this factor.