Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Genez]

How do you think every Pentecostal on earth makes emotions his or her god?

Tell them the truth about the gifts that have ceased.

Then we watch them deny with determinism what it says...

.....

 

[Blade]

Praise God glory to Jesus.. not touching any other group that is not here nor can defend themselves.. I myself have not found anything in Gods word saying something stopped is dead gone. Like many others I can go on for pages of all the wonders the sweet sweet holy Spirit has done.. all I have personally seen. What I know is .. if I doubt this stuff...I will never see it. He will never go against out will.

Just read some of the posts here.. not of GOD.. we don't talk about others like this.. you disagree with them praise GOD.. speak words of life... Fact that NT you read you love so much? They are were "Charismatic". And these signs shall follow them that believe. We love to say we believe yet no and then give a excuses as to why we believe some of the word not all .. well its dead? That which is perfect has come huh.. not written. When.. when has not happened. Go for it.. tell that deaf girl.. deaf who can now hear.. say oops that stuff is dead.. that blind woman up there screaming jumping crying.. we all saw it. Tell her its fake.

No faith in that name. Peter and John.. did they have something you don't? They never prayed never asked God/Jesus to do anything. They told the.. why do you look at us as if we did this by our own power? That name faith in that name healed this man. All those gifts are for today as if it was worse back then then now? As if .. nope no longer needed.

Not here to defend anyone.. just saying what I believe. Take Pentecostal.. you ever notice they don't share the good they have done as in reached "more people worldwide than many other Christian denominations". That is saved....set free. So what you don't like speaking on tongues or the gifts.. ok so what? Its those coming to Christ.....oh its so wonderful. As He said about another preacher some thought .. why have you not judged this man with fire and brimstone. He said "oh but do you know all the good he does for me". No .. those who love Jesus.. yet make fun of attack never tell you the good. Same with you and me.. its not the faults the silly doctrines.. its the good we do that is what He sees. We help each other.. me? I don't care... if you they fall? I will be praying for you.. never giving up on you.. I don't care.. I am not your god I have been given no authority over you and. you as the word says.. you don't answer to me.. so I pray for.. love help... as I was told

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I see....

You are accusing me of being anti emotion.
When it was not what I was referring to.

I ask you...
When people make emotions their god?
Not simply, having emotions?

Can you discern the difference?


........

........

When you equate making one's belly one's GOD to mean excessive emotionality you have to accept the rest of the verse with it:

18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things.
(Philippians 3:18-19)

a. Are excessively emotional people necessarily ENEMIES of the cross of Christ?

b. Is their FINAL END DESTRUCTION?
The word translated "destruction" is apṓleia (ἀπώλεια - from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"). It refers to causing someone to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. The word is closely related to the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, which is the lot of those who are excluded from the kingdom of God:
Revelation 17:8, 11, cf. Revelation 19:20; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 3:16

c. This language is far too strong for a person who is excessively emotional. For this reason, I think we should understand "making ones belly their God" to mean those driven by the desire to satisfy their appetites for earthly things over serving God. They serve themselves and their fleshly lusts, is in stark contrast with being citizens of heaven (verse 20), walking in the ways of God and trusting in the only One who CAN satisfy.

 

[Genez]

When you equate making one's belly one's GOD to mean excessive emotionality you have to accept the rest of the verse with it:

18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
19Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things.
(Philippians 3:18-19)

a. Are excessively emotional people necessarily ENEMIES of the cross of Christ?

b. Is their FINAL END DESTRUCTION?
The word translated "destruction" is apṓleia (ἀπώλεια - from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"). It refers to causing someone to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. The word is closely related to the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, which is the lot of those who are excluded from the kingdom of God:
Revelation 17:8, 11, cf. Revelation 19:20; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 3:16

c. This language is far too strong for a person who is excessively emotional. For this reason, I think we should understand "making ones belly their God" to mean those driven by the desire to satisfy their appetites for earthly things over serving God. They serve themselves and their fleshly lusts, is in stark contrast with being citizens of heaven (verse 20), walking in the ways of God and trusting in the only One who CAN satisfy.

Emotions when they are not controlled by truth in the Spirit will over rule the truth, and find ways to distort and change it to what the emotions refuse to give up.

Their end is destruction for believers is not the Lake of Fire.
It's this.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

​

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, ​

straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because ​

it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. ​

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. ​

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, ​

but only as through fire.​

Face destruction - Not perdition.

Because, all their "good works" done in their flesh?
They will be *burned up* by the Lord. (end is destruction)

Because of that destruction?
They will be denied rewards.
Not lose their salvation!
For it says... they will be saved as a person running from a burning house. Saved.


Grace and peace......

 

[presidente]

Being large in number means nothing to validate oneself.

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:14​

For many are called (are saved).

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​

those he justified, he also glorified (resurrection body). (Rom 8:30)​

The "called" are all saved ones!

Yet...

Only a few out of the many are the chosen!

To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, ​

just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev 3:21)​

Few are chosen out from all who are saved, to reign with the Lord!
Only those who overcome shall reign with Jesus!

To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, ​

just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev 3:21)​

So much for my "stretchy" exegesis.

.....

Well, you sure did argue against that straw man argument. I do not think large numbers saves. I notice you did not address the part about millions believing Christ died and rose from the dead. My point is that there are millions of Pentecostals and you are making such broad sweeping statements.

Show me your evidence for saying that Pentecostals' God is their belly. Do you have a Biblical basis for that, do you claim some divine revelation of this, or are you spouting skubala?

 

[presidente]

Tell them the truth about the gifts that have ceased.

Then we watch them deny with determinism what it says...

.....

Why don't you address the points I made on this topic. Paul Wright's in U Corinthians 1:7 'so that you come behind and no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

Press corinthians 13 speaks of tongues prophecy in the coming of the perfect. Then follow the flow of argument as the elaborate on each topic on tongues prophecy and the state of the believer ar the resurrection at the coming of the Lord.

Also you can comment on the post where I mentioned that one of the Gospels has a middle use of the Greek word translated cease here that is instantaneous. Another gospel uses a word in the active.

This is a tactic that some people use to argue that some feature of the Greek language that you're regular english speech here doesn't know proves some specific point of doctrine. But when you actually look up that feature of the Greek language in other passages it doesn't hold true to the argument. Then this 'Greek mythology' circulates in his repeated and we read about it on forms like this.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Emotions when they are not controlled by truth in the Spirit will over rule the truth, and find ways to distort and change it to what the emotions refuse to give up.
Their end is destruction for believers is not the Lake of Fire.
It's this.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, ​

straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because ​

it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. ​

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. ​

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, ​

but only as through fire.​

Face destruction - Not perdition.

I certainly agree that believers should not let their emotions rule them but the passage we were discussing was not dealing with merely hyper-emotionalism but something far more serious. If we read it as it is written we see that:

…18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their (final) end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,…
(Philippians 3:18-19)

The passage is referring to those whose FINAL END is destruction. The word translated "destruction" is apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"). The prefix APO intensifies the relational distance between God and who the Apostle is alluding to
which is why ἀπώλεια carries the sense of being CUT OFF (completely) from God.

Another example of how the word "destruction" is used can be found in Matthew 7:13 where Jesus says:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to LIFE, and only a few find it.
The issue is about eternal life vs eternal death.

The final destinations of the two exemplars [who take different routes] are either eternal LIFE or DESTRUCTION not life versus the lesser penalty of being DEPRIVED of rewards. Vines Expository Dictionary adds further explanation about the meaning of DESTRUCTION: "...apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

 

[presidente]

I certainly agree that believers should not let their emotions rule them but the passage we were discussing was not dealing with merely hyper-emotionalism but something far more serious. If we read it as it is written we see that:

…18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their (final) end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,…
(Philippians 3:18-19)

The passage is referring to those whose FINAL END is destruction. The word translated "destruction" is apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"). The prefix APO intensifies the relational distance between God and who the Apostle is alluding to
which is why ἀπώλεια carries the sense of being CUT OFF (completely) from God.

Another example of how the word "destruction" is used can be found in Matthew 7:13 where Jesus says:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to LIFE, and only a few find it.
The issue is about eternal life vs eternal death.

The final destinations of the two exemplars [who take different routes] are either eternal LIFE or DESTRUCTION not life versus the lesser penalty of being DEPRIVED of rewards. Vines Expository Dictionary adds further explanation about the meaning of DESTRUCTION: "...apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

I suspect this is a one-man doctrine that no one else besides Genez holds to. It would be sad to add this other requirement for salvation to the Gospel, this other little one-verse 'gotcha' that damns people to Hell... for some vague emotional requirements.... some vague idea that being too emotional makes emotions one's god, and emotional people can just be damned based on just one verse that native speakers of Greek and most preachers and commentators interpret some other way.

I hope no large group grabs onto this and starts promoting this potentially damaging teaching. But it comes off as so stupid, prima facie, that I hope no group will, but there have been even more egregious teachings to get a following.

Emotional Paul warned about those whose god is their stomach while weeping.

 

[Genez]

I suspect this is a one-man doctrine that no one else besides Genez holds to. It would be sad to add this other requirement for salvation to the Gospel, this other little one-verse 'gotcha' that damns people to Hell...

When was I damning you to hell?

Your emotions are blinding you and keep you from seeing what was said, and seeing what was not said.

 

[presidente]

When was I damning you to hell?

Your emotions are blinding you and keep you from seeing what was said, and seeing what was not said.

Talking about the scripture you misapply. People can infer draw other conclusions from false teachings other than those drawn by the one who teaches it.

If you believe there are genuine Christians among the Pentecostals, why would the Spirit of God not work through them in genuine spiritual gifts? Why wouldn't the grace of God be at work among Pentecostals, sanctifying individuals in the movement, so that they not worship other gods?

Do you believe worshippers of another god are saved?

 

[pinebeach]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

And so you decide, because you find little evidence of what other people live and understand, that your opinion overrides all other peoples of the earth.

Sounds about right.

 

[Genez]

Talking about the scripture you misapply. People can infer draw other conclusions from false teachings other than those drawn by the one who teaches it.

That's how you ended up thinking tongues are for today. Precisely.

 

[pinebeach]

In answering the question,' Is cessation an observation or a theology'?
I would think it is both. If one looks objectively at the activities of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements, there is little New Testament equivalence.
Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.
As to healing, the Cessationalist position is that God still heals today in answer to prayer. But the 'gift of healing', is past.

I don't doubt your experience(s). I had the worst time of my life when I became involved with Pentecostals. I would like to say that all churches and people who are of that group are not deserving of the biggest kick in the behind because of the emphasis on 'experience' and gifts rather than God who gives them, and I hope that is so. But the worst treatment I ever received at the hands of so called 'Christians' came from that group. I will never enter a Pentecostal church again. They are not led by the Holy Spirit. They are emotional quacks who represent the very worst of Christianity IMO.

However, the gifts are real.

 

[pinebeach]

^^^Holy Spirit (obviously not the Hoky Spirit)

This made me laugh. You know, hoky spirit is what many seem to have sadly.

I've seen things for sure; some just emotionalism but some demonic and most do not seem able to tell the difference.

God is not the author of confusion so when that starts, people should head for the door if the so called pastor or whoever is in charge, cannot tell the difference.

 

[Genez]

I certainly agree that believers should not let their emotions rule them but the passage we were discussing was not dealing with merely hyper-emotionalism but something far more serious. If we read it as it is written we see that:

…18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their (final) end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,…
(Philippians 3:18-19)

The passage is referring to those whose FINAL END is destruction. The word translated "destruction" is apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off"). The prefix APO intensifies the relational distance between God and who the Apostle is alluding to
which is why ἀπώλεια carries the sense of being CUT OFF (completely) from God.

Another example of how the word "destruction" is used can be found in Matthew 7:13 where Jesus says:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to LIFE, and only a few find it.
The issue is about eternal life vs eternal death.

The final destinations of the two exemplars [who take different routes] are either eternal LIFE or DESTRUCTION not life versus the lesser penalty of being DEPRIVED of rewards. Vines Expository Dictionary adds further explanation about the meaning of DESTRUCTION: "...apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

Yes.... the fire used for the evaluation of unfaithful believers will utterly destroy their receiving rewards for all eternity. Utterly!

​

If we endure,​

We shall also reign with Him.​

If we deny Him,​

He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12​

All "works" that were motivated by false doctrinal thinking will be utterly destroyed.
BURNED UP! Cut off from ever receiving from God!
1 Corinthians 3:11-14

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, ​

straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be ​

revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. ​

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. ​

​

But! The believer who having only dead works, are burned up?
Will still be saved from the Lake of Fire!

1 Corinthians 3:15

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, ​

yet so as through fire.​

It's the Word. Some wish to deny it and say we can lose our salvation! ​

​

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

2 Timothy 2:12


.​

 

[presidente]

That's how you ended up thinking tongues are for today. Precisely.

I'm trying to keep poster's arguments straight. Wasn't your argument basically that because of the Greek middle form of the word translated 'cease' there, tongues would gradually cease permanently.... and then I show you from the Gospels where a middle form of the verb is used in one gospel when Jesus calmed the storm, but another gospel shows an active form of the same passage. Does anyone thing it took decades for the storm to calm?

I also pointed out that I Corinthians 1:7 says 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' And also, the textual argument that Paul is leading up to a discussion of the resurrection and the return of Christ.

But you act like you proved something in the thread.

I don't like your fast and loose attitude with scripture, and your willingness to judge millions of Christians as worshippers of other gods based on some of the weakest, loosest eisegesis.

I am curious, do you know of anyone else in the history of the church that thinks that 'their god is their belly' refers to serving emotion? You also haven't explained what you think constitutes having one's god as his belly, what the characteristics are, or your exegetical basis?

We all give account of every idle word at the day of judgment. The 'judge not that ye be not judged' passage comes to mind. Judging brothers based on flimsy eisegesis is not a good thing. The fear of the Lord should keep us from being too reckless.

 

[Lamar]

And so you decide, because you find little evidence of what other people live and understand, that your opinion overrides all other peoples of the earth.

Sounds about right.

And so you decide, because you find validity of the unproven claims of other people that this overrides the blessings of faith without sight that we live in today.

Sounds about right.

This is true of those who insist that space aliens are walking among us today.
Welcome to their club.

 

[Genez]

I'm trying to keep poster's arguments straight. Wasn't your argument basically that because of the Greek middle form of the word translated 'cease' there, tongues would gradually cease permanently...

You found a detail to argue over. Good job! Keep it going.

 

[pinebeach]

And so you decide, because you find validity of the unproven claims of other people that this overrides the blessings of faith without sight that we live in today.

Sounds about right.

This is true of those who insist that space aliens are walking among us today.
Welcome to their club.

It seems the thought of people knowing God in a closer relationship with Him than you apparently have, scares any modicum of
temperance right out of your cererebral cortex, resulting in a knee jerk defiance of 'how dare anyone question my opinions' and false authority granted only to those who think too much of themselves.

No, I have no aspirations towards aliens from other planets whatsoever. The limited ability you have to attempt to discredit what you fear and do not understand, gives credence to spritual gifts and those who benefit from them. The function you have chosen for yourself to perform in, in a public forum with an audience wider than the actual members, is common with less originality than a child picking its nose and examing the results.

You cannot stop anyone from attaining the gifts God wishes to give anymore than I can stop the fools who try to use those gifts for their own purposes.

It is what it is and God is not mocked by your definition of what He can and cannot do.

 

[Lamar]

It seems the thought of people knowing God in a closer relationship with Him than you apparently have, scares any modicum of
temperance right out of your cererebral cortex, resulting in a knee jerk defiance of 'how dare anyone question my opinions' and false authority granted only to those who think too much of themselves.

No, I have no aspirations towards aliens from other planets whatsoever. The limited ability you have to attempt to discredit what you fear and do not understand, gives credence to spritual gifts and those who benefit from them. The function you have chosen for yourself to perform in, in a public forum with an audience wider than the actual members, is common with less originality than a child picking its nose and examing the results.

You cannot stop anyone from attaining the gifts God wishes to give anymore than I can stop the fools who try to use those gifts for their own purposes.

It is what it is and God is not mocked by your definition of what He can and cannot do.

It seems the thought of people knowing God in a closer relationship with Him by the blessings of faith without sight scares you. You seem to be a Doubting Thomas with a need to see physical miracles in order to believe. You know that you cannot claim this blessing because of the many claims of physical supernatural manifestations that you have bought into.

We live in an age of faith without sight and you cannot stop anyone from attaining these blessing no matter how many baseless claims and parlor tricks you and your ilk label as movements of the Holy Spirit.

It is what it is and God is not mocked by your definition of what is a physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit and what are manmade slight of hands.

When the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit return (and it will) you and those like you will be ashamed of the mundane events you called acts of God.