Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Aussie52]

What I am trying to communicate to you is that judge a tree by its fruit, not its branches, trunk, leaves or flowers. Don't be reactionary, go investigate such claims, seek real evidence, record and testimony of such healings & miracles, then draw your conclusion.

I have done those things you suggest and have put them forth in my posts which you doubt and reject. I am not being reactionary but examining these so called 'supernatural gifts' by God's Word and they are found wanting.
The view that the 'sign gifts' are here today and functioning as such has no Biblical foundation. You are directing me to what you see, I am directing you to the Word of God. Big difference.

 

[Aussie52]

Again, what counts as healing and miracle? The way I see it, for a modern day pastor, leaving behind a comfortable life for a missionary trip to a primitive and dangerous nation to preach the gospel, for no monetary gain or other benefits, this by itself is a miracle, a manifestation of God's grace shed upon a group of forsaken people in a forsaken land.

Your kidding? Derek Prince announced night after night that hundreds were healed. The facts, none were healed. It is a matter of integrity and honesty in ministry. Remove your 'rose tinted glasses' and see reality. This is evil. This is sinful. And all you can say is, this is' a manifestation of God's grace'? Unbelievable!

 

[Lovette]

I have done those things you suggest and have put them forth in my posts which you doubt and reject. I am not being reactionary but examining these so called 'supernatural gifts' by God's Word and they are found wanting.
The view that the 'sign gifts' are here today and functioning as such has no Biblical foundation. You are directing me to what you see, I am directing you to the Word of God. Big difference.

The Word of God states the Word of God is living and powerful, Heb. 4:12. I don't think you've done any of those things, since you only focus on the Pentacostal churches, instead of signs, healings and wonders in broader sense beyond any church denomination. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and its power?

 

[Lovette]

Your kidding? Derek Prince announced night after night that hundreds were healed. The facts, none were healed. It is a matter of integrity and honesty in ministry. Remove your 'rose tinted glasses' and see reality. This is evil. This is sinful. And all you can say is, this is' a manifestation of God's grace'? Unbelievable!

Again, it's their fault of preaching false prosperity gospel, it's your fault of paying them so much attention.

 

[Aussie52]

The Word of God states the Word of God is living and powerful, Heb. 4:12. I don't think you've done any of those things, since you only focus on the Pentacostal churches, instead of signs, healings and wonders in broader sense beyond any church denomination. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and its power?

May I correct you, the Holy Sprit is not an 'it'.
Do I believe in the Holy Spirit and His power?

At the age of 14 years, I experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in my life when I yielded to the Lord Jesus Christ, and became a believer. My life was totally changed.
At 21 years, at Bible College I experienced the Holy Sprit's power as He came in His fullness, filling me with His Divine love.
I have since experienced the Holy Spirit as the 'Spirit of Holiness' as He has sanctified me and delivered me from sin.
I have experienced the Holy Spirit's power in healing in answer to prayer, multiple times over.
So, yes. I believe in the Holy Sprits power.

 

[TrustandObey]

The Word of God states the Word of God is living and powerful, Heb. 4:12. I don't think you've done any of those things, since you only focus on the Pentacostal churches, instead of signs, healings and wonders in broader sense beyond any church denomination. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and its power?

If you would simply read the OP you would understand that this is about the claims of the Pentecostal churches.

And there are no "signs, healings and wonders in broader sense". If there were there would be no need to insist on its existence.

If the New Testaments manifestations were active today you would not need to bring up Heb. 4:12 to support the existence of the manifestations.

You are not wearing rose-tinted glasses, you are simply blind.

 

[TrustandObey]

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and its power?

The question is are you believing in the Holy Spirit and its power?

It seems you are putting your faith into unproven claims of "wonders" and not the Biblical examples of "wonders".

 

[lrs68]

That speaks of His character, not His actions. One example where God does things different from one age to the next.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit are what God is. So if God doesn't change neither does His attributes. They're the same until God returns.

 

[Psalm1]

You probably find "even less" in Scripture about manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today because the Bible was completed about 2,000 years ago.

While it is the responsibility of the claimant to support their claim, "proof" is a ridiculous standard because it depends on the recipient of evidence. Those who have already convinced themselves (usually by bad arguments) that manifestations of the Spirit don't occur today are unlikely to be convinced by any evidence.

I know what I have seen and experienced. I know it is consistent with things described in Scripture. I don't care who else believes me.

Well put.

 

[lrs68]

It is both one leads to the other. One of the ways God speaks to us is through our circumstances. Having no money, or bring locked up in jail for example cause us to review how we got there, and with enough of these things happening one eventually changes thier mind (repents).

Thus the family cutting off money is literally facilitating the next part and can be seen easily as God working through or parents, or whomever.

you are discounting Gods plan through time. For example, God planned for Jesus to do what he did. And to change to a new covenant, do away with sacrifices, etc.... God Plan can appear as a change because we see it in a progression. In other word it could be that god allowed the apostles to perform miracle and had no plan to let future generations do them... that isn't god changing its gods plan. assuming he did something like that)

As long as the Holy Spirit is active on earth then nothing concerning the Holy Spirit will change or cease.

The 2 Witnesses in the Tribulation are able to call fire down from Heaven. This isn't their power doing it. It's the Holy Spirit doing it. So the Gifts are continual until the Holy Spirit is done on earth.

 

[Lovette]

May I correct you, the Holy Sprit is not an 'it'.
Do I believe in the Holy Spirit and His power?

At the age of 14 years, I experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in my life when I yielded to the Lord Jesus Christ, and became a believer. My life was totally changed.
At 21 years, at Bible College I experienced the Holy Sprit's power as He came in His fullness, filling me with His Divine love.
I have since experienced the Holy Spirit as the 'Spirit of Holiness' as He has sanctified me and delivered me from sin.
I have experienced the Holy Spirit's power in healing in answer to prayer, multiple times over.
So, yes. I believe in the Holy Sprits power.

Then there you have it, cessationism is erroneous.

 

[Lovette]

If you would simply read the OP you would understand that this is about the claims of the Pentecostal churches.

And there are no "signs, healings and wonders in broader sense". If there were there would be no need to insist on its existence.

If the New Testaments manifestations were active today you would not need to bring up Heb. 4:12 to support the existence of the manifestations.

You are not wearing rose-tinted glasses, you are simply blind.

If so, Lord Jesus has opened my eyes to see, while it is you who're in denial. Paul warned about this, praising God while denying His power, that's truly being blind.

 

[Psalm1]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

I feel sorry for the baptists.
I was saved during the charismatic renewal.
What a ride.

You guys missed out.
QUOTE
"It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist."

that baloney is like a fan at a major league ball game hollering at the right fielder :" hey baseball does not exist, this whole thing is fake"

nothing has changed.
Pharisees everywhere.
even when miracles and manifestations are right under their nose, they call it fake.
Read the book of acts.
The Holy Spirit falls on THE HUNGRY ONES, then the religiously dead Pharisees chant " they are full of wine" mocking and unable to connect the dots right under their noses.

the only true separation in the church is hungry believers vs those full of religion and trivia.
A powerless God vs a God of power.

I got a big big God.

 

[Lovette]

The question is are you believing in the Holy Spirit and its power?

It seems you are putting your faith into unproven claims of "wonders" and not the Biblical examples of "wonders".

No I ain't. Depending on the wonder, certain "wonders' are fulfillment of biblical prophecies, not proof of random "claims", and I put my faith in biblical prophecies.

ANd once again, define what qualifies as "wonder" to you, 'cause one person's wonder could be another's delusion.

 

[Psalm1]

By no means. I received the Holy Spirit when I was immersed for the remission of my sins.

I am simply saying that there is no reason to believe the claims of Pentecostals of physical, supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They are just stories without substance.


Correct but my desire is to witness it.
But I am blessed to believe without seeing.


This is just silly.

This may help.

cessation
noun
/seˈseɪ·ʃən/
the ending of a condition or the stopping of an activity:

Read the book of acts.
The Holy Spirit was recieved via laying on of Hands.

Water baptism is what all believers recieve.

A guy in Rome, back then, knows nothing of the manifestations in Jerusalem. He just may hear of it.

You got to get moving
Get into the "water"...the river of God.
Find out where God is moving and go get into the river.
Takes time and money and air fare.

If people want the Holy Ghost, they seek and find.
A cost.
No hunger....No Holy Ghost.

Book of acts is the same.
We are in the book of acts.
Same Holy Ghost, same hunger vs skeptics.

 

[Psalm1]

If you would simply read the OP you would understand that this is about the claims of the Pentecostal churches.

And there are no "signs, healings and wonders in broader sense". If there were there would be no need to insist on its existence.

If the New Testaments manifestations were active today you would not need to bring up Heb. 4:12 to support the existence of the manifestations.

You are not wearing rose-tinted glasses, you are simply blind.

Pot <> kettle big time

You got it 100% backwards.

 

[Psalm1]

Your kidding? Derek Prince announced night after night that hundreds were healed. The facts, none were healed. It is a matter of integrity and honesty in ministry. Remove your 'rose tinted glasses' and see reality. This is evil. This is sinful. And all you can say is, this is' a manifestation of God's grace'? Unbelievable!

Prove Jesus healed somebody.

Go up to someone that has been baptized in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, and tell them it was fake.
Then when someone tells you your own testimony is fake you need to believe them... not your experience.
Maybe you think God is fake if you were told that?
God is not fake? Prove it.
See how it is.
Even if you saw it personally, maybe your mind will tell you it is fake.

I was present in the Holy laughter revival in the mid 90's
I heard of it through my mother and she said " at my church in Alvin, people are laughing histerically ."
She insisted I go with her that night.
I told her "I think they are trying to draw attention to themselves".
I thought right away( like how you are doing), this is got to be fake.

When we got there, during and after the worship , some people started laughing uncontrollably.
The power of God was there in super intensity and God was manifesting Himself powerfully.

I knew FOR A FACT it was God, but I never got "hit" like them, instead I was brought to my knees at the strong powerful weight of the Holy Spirit.
About a month later, we learned that Vicki Jameson Peterson was going to be at San Antonio at a church that we were acquainted with.
little Did I know, it was my turn to get hit.
When I got hit by the Holy Spirit with the holy laughter, I laughed, and cried at the same time for over an hour and all I could think of was. I hope this never stops.
What a rotor router job. It was the most incredible, ceansing, exhilarating, beautiful, wonderful thing that I ever experienced.
one of many many Holy Ghost adventures that I took the time and money to GO to.
( you got to get going....if you are hungry)

God is real, He will take a person up on it if they are hungry.

the church is fat and backslidden.
No hunger...no desperation for more of God.
"as the deer panteth for the water "
God's protocol.

The hungryiest bird in the nest gets the worm.

 

[Lamar]

The hungryiest bird in the nest gets the worm.

No.

The "hungryiest" bird in the nest will eat anything!

They will swallow whatever is put into their mouths.

Such is the fate of the Pentecostals.

 

[Dino246]

No.

The "hungryiest" bird in the nest will eat anything!

They will swallow whatever is put into their mouths.

Such is the fate of the Pentecostals.

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Matthew 5:6 (NIV) - Blessed are those who hunger and th - Bible App

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

bible.com

 

[Lamar]

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Matthew 5:6 (NIV) - Blessed are those who hunger and th - Bible App

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

bible.com

The key word being "righteousness".

Unmet spiritual hunger often leads to making irrational, destructive choices to satisfy immediate, surface-level needs.
Falling into the hands of a modern day Simon Magus.

Such is the fate of Pentecostals.

Such is the fate of Psalm1 and his unholy laughter.