Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Anchorite]

Our "greater works" is bringing the Gospel to ALL the world.

A sinner saved is the GREAT works.

We ALL have the message to the WORLD..........Greater works.

No. The whole world has not been evangelized. Not even close.

It is estimated that of the 8.08 billion people alive in the world today, 3.42 billion of them live in unreached people groups with little or no access to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to Joshua Project, there are approximately 17,269 unique people groups in the world with 7,188 of them considered unreached (over 42% of the world’s population)!

Jesus said the works that I do shall he do also, and greater.

What works did Jesus do? Healing was one of the main works He did.

 

[Mem]

Must? Why?

What does "negativity toward healing" have to do with the validity of modern healings?

Did not the Pharisees, Sadducees and Naaman not see the healing miracles?

Were those miracles not valid?

Abraham was aware of his body, but he didn't 'look at it.'
I don't know if that makes sense to anybody else as an explanation to those questions, but it does to me.

 

[Kroogz]

No. The whole world has not been evangelized. Not even close.

Yep. Believers are not focused on the evangelism of the world today..........They are focused on their personal self righteous "Super powers."

 

[Aussie52]

Yep. Believers are not focused on the evangelism of the world today..........They are focused on their personal self righteous "Super powers."

Yes, you are right. The great need today is real revival, not the Brownsville type, but one where the real Holy Spirit turns up, convicting believers of their sins, their carnality, worldliness and false idols. A revival of biblical holiness that produces godly men and women. A return to prayer and fasting and a preaching of the real Gospel that calls sinners to repentance, forsaking sin and restitution, and coming under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[presidente]

Hold on.

Did you not research this claim before you presented it???

Why would Lamar need to do research on a claim that you have presented but not researched?


No they are not and yes you are rather dishonest.

I told him there were claims. I believe I said I hadn't researched it, but asked him if he had researched the claim in the book he wrote with a death certificate printed in it. I haven't read it yet. The point was that he didn't research claims, just made his statements.

And you like to just falsely accuse. We should have conversations here that are made in good faith, without impugning other posters character for no reason at all.

 

[TrustandObey]

Your negativity toward healing must be abandoned before healing can happen.

Just a lame cop-out.

Deep down you know this.

 

[presidente]

Yep. Believers are not focused on the evangelism of the world today..........They are focused on their personal self righteous "Super powers."

I believe in spiritual gifts, but I see that as a problem.

But I think we should expand it to include glorifying God, discipleship and edifying other believers, and doing good to all men, especially them that believe.

 

[TrustandObey]

I told him there were claims. I believe I said I hadn't researched it, but asked him if he had researched the claim in the book he wrote with a death certificate printed in it. I haven't read it yet. The point was that he didn't research claims, just made his statements.

And you like to just falsely accuse. We should have conversations here that are made in good faith, without impugning other posters character for no reason at all.

Regardless, you are the one presenting claims of people being raised from the dead that you have not researched.
The onus is on you to do the research.
Lamar has no reason to do your research.

There is no good faith in your words. This is easy to see.
You are quite the dishonest disputant. Your own words prove it.

IOW, you knew there was no merit to the claim yet presented it anyway.

 

[presidente]

Regardless, you are the one presenting claims of people being raised from the dead that you have not researched.
The onus is on you to do the research.
Lamar has no reason to do your research.

There is no good faith in your words. This is easy to see.
You are quite the dishonest disputant. Your own words prove it.

IOW, you knew there was no merit to the claim yet presented it anyway.

I asked him if he had researched the claims that had some documentation. Goo look at how I wrote it. This was based on how he was arguing. Based on scripture, it is not reasonable to assert all miracles are false. It is also unreasonable to pretend there is no evidence to examine. I can think of another missionary claim of raising someone from the dead, but not one that has something other than testimony evidence, btw.

Also, the Mahesh Chavda story may have been one of those stories of someone being raised from the dead while the preacher was going on or praying for the audience type of claims. It has been years since I heard that testimony, but he did have a book with a death certificate. So I asked Lamar if he had researched the claim, because of the assertions in his post. If you think I have said something wrong, please quote specifically what you take issue with in the next post and I will consider what you have to say.

If we are talking about sin, slandering others is a sin. If you have some specific quote of mine that shows I sinned, I am willing to repent. If I was mistaken, I am willing to apologize. Why are you so eager to judge the brethren?

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Actually, the gospel did make its way to most of the known world in the 1st century.

…7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.…
(Acts 1:7-9)

Rather than accept what Jesus said as He said it you attempt to reduce the scope and impact of the gospel by adjusting the scope of Jesus words in order to fit some presupposition you have by amending the phrase the ends of the earth by adding the words MOST of the KNOWN world in the IN THE FIRST CENTURY. Historically, the Twelve original Apostles did not take the gospel to the entire world. The one who went the farthest was probably Simon the Canaanean who, reportedly went into Britain before he was killed.
Do you think the Father did not know that evangelizing the world would be a multi-generational mission?

 

[Lamar]

I told him there were claims. I believe I said I hadn't researched it, but asked him if he had researched the claim in the book he wrote with a death certificate printed in it. I haven't read it yet. The point was that he didn't research claims, just made his statements.

And you like to just falsely accuse. We should have conversations here that are made in good faith, without impugning other posters character for no reason at all.

I am supposed to research your claims that you have not researched?

Okay, how about you research Dr. Joe Blow who claimed that God told him that all Pentecostals are faking speaking in other languages.
I think I saw this on a You Tube video a few years ago.

Let me know about this claim. I have not researched this myself.

 

[Cameron143]

…7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.…
(Acts 1:7-9)

Rather than accept what Jesus said as He said it you attempt to reduce the scope and impact of the gospel by adjusting the scope of Jesus words in order to fit some presupposition you have by amending the phrase the ends of the earth by adding the words MOST of the KNOWN world in the IN THE FIRST CENTURY. Historically, the Twelve original Apostles did not take the gospel to the entire world. The one who went the farthest was probably Simon the Canaanean who, reportedly went into Britain before he was killed.
Do you think the Father did not know that evangelizing the world would be a multi-generational mission?

Of course every generation is to evangelize, but the Great Commission was given to the Apostles. They were commissioned for a particular task. And if you believe Jesus' words, they were to begin in Jerusalem and take the gospel increasingly further away. You are the one who actually changes Jesus' words by making them include all Christians in all times.
The gospel did go to the known world in the 1st century. To make the Commission to include every single person in the world at that time is not what was in view.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Yes, you are right. The great need today is real revival, not the Brownsville type, but one where the real Holy Spirit turns up, convicting believers of their sins, their carnality, worldliness and false idols. A revival of biblical holiness that produces godly men and women. A return to prayer and fasting and a preaching of the real Gospel that calls sinners to repentance, forsaking sin and restitution, and coming under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

True outpourings of the Spirit, or as we now refer to them "REVIVALS" are always accompanied by humbling ourselves and allowing our hearts to be searched by the Spirit of God. Too often, what we have is groups who attempt to reproduce the manifestations of a move of God. When I was a Church musician, we were used to facilitate such effects which, in retrospect, was more about manipulation than anything.
Charles Finney, whom many Calvinists have accused of being manipulative, in reality put prayer above everything else. Before he even went to a town to preach, he or one of his ministry partners would go in and do nothing but pray and get a feel for the spiritual state of the people. In this way, he would come to understand the kind of spiritual bondage the people were in. This insight would direct the focus of his messages.

 

[presidente]

I am supposed to research your claims that you have not researched?

Okay, how about you research Dr. Joe Blow who claimed that God told him that all Pentecostals are faking speaking in other languages.
I think I saw this on a You Tube video a few years ago.

Let me know about this claim. I have not researched this myself.

That's not even rational. Who cares what your hypothetical Dr. Joe thinks, and how is that relevant to the conversation.

You were writing as if there is no evidence to examine and I was asking if you researched claims that exist before making your proclamations of fact.... that don't line up with being a Christian and claiming to believe the Bible anyway. (There is no Biblical basis for the idea that God might not do a miracle or heal through someone.) Of course, the problem with this is we may meet dozens or hundreds of people who are healed, etc., but not have their medical records or go around videoing everything, so a couple of publicly available sources came to mind and I mentioned them, that you could research.

If you make a claim of no miracles being done, you back that up.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Of course every generation is to evangelize, but the Great Commission was given to the Apostles. They were commissioned for a particular task. And if you believe Jesus' words, they were to begin in Jerusalem and take the gospel increasingly further away. You are the one who actually changes Jesus' words by making them include all Christians in all times.
The gospel did go to the known world in the 1st century. To make the Commission to include every single person in the world at that time is not what was in view.

1) So the purpose of God to witness to people and share the gospel with the world must be accomplished through appointed leaders and not even by EVERY leader but ONLY by the 12 specific leaders who Jesus originally recruited?
2). No wonder you have to alter the literal sense of the scriptures to prove your thesis
3). I find your statement that the Great Commission does not include every single person in the world to be misleading. Does God not wish that all men would be saved.
4). Jesus Himself said that believers involved in the harvest could pray for more laborers to be sent to work in the field and that if they did God would respond by sending more. It sounds like MANY who are working in the field and that God can recruit more
5) Must the good news only be shared by a duly appointed class of ministers? If so, then who would be responsible to evangelize once they had died?
5) If the Church is Christ's body would not the members be directed to carry out the desires of the Head (the main desire of which is to reconcile every individual to Himself?
6) Saying that making the Commission to include every single person in the world at that time is not what was in view is a gratuitous assertion you have not attempted to prove. After all, God's DESIRE to save mankind or at least as many as are willing and, if this is so, why would not the members of His body be animated by this same purpose?

 

[Cameron143]

1) So the purpose of God to witness to people and share the gospel with the world must be accomplished through appointed leaders and not even by EVERY leader but ONLY by the 12 specific leaders who Jesus originally recruited?
2). No wonder you have to alter the literal sense of the scriptures to prove your thesis
3). I find your statement that the Great Commission does not include every single person in the world to be misleading. Does God not wish that all men would be saved.
4). Jesus Himself said that believers involved in the harvest could pray for more laborers to be sent to work in the field and that if they did God would respond by sending more. It sounds like MANY who are working in the field and that God can recruit more
5) Must the good news only be shared by a duly appointed class of ministers? If so, then who would be responsible to evangelize once they had died?
5) If the Church is Christ's body would not the members be directed to carry out the desires of the Head (the main desire of which is to reconcile every individual to Himself?
6) Saying that making the Commission to include every single person in the world at that time is not what was in view is a gratuitous assertion you have not attempted to prove. After all, God's DESIRE to save mankind or at least as many as are willing and, if this is so, why would not the members of His body be animated by this same purpose?

You miss the point. The Great Commission wasn't given to the church. It was given to the Apostles. So while there is application for us today to evangelize, I've never met anyone who went to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and then to the rest of the world. Secondly, you are saying that Jesus didn't expect the Apostles to fulfill the mission He gave them. I don't believe that is so. And it doesn't say they personally had to reach each person.

 

[Anchorite]

The Great Commission was given to the church as a whole, not just the 12 apostles. For each generation needs to have the gospel taught to them, not just the 1st century people.

The mandate was to go to the remotest part of the world, not just what the apostles knew of their currently known world.

All this is necessary to ensure that all mankind have the opportunity to be saved.

I Timothy 2

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Anchorite]

Not only the Great Commission, but also the instructions to tarry in Jerusalem for the promised Holy Spirit, were given to the 12 apostles, but included all believers. On the day of Pentecost, it was not just the 12 apostles, but 120 believers who were gathered together. They all received the Holy Spirit and were all obligated to be witnesses and evangelize.



Acts 1

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[Cameron143]

The Great Commission was given to the church as a whole, not just the 12 apostles. For each generation needs to have the gospel taught to them, not just the 1st century people.

The mandate was to go to the remotest part of the world, not just what the apostles knew of their currently known world.

All this is necessary to ensure that all mankind have the opportunity to be saved.

I Timothy 2

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The church didn't exist when the Commission was given. It was delivered to 11 disciples.

If you believe it was given to the church, why wouldn't the church today begin in Jerusalem? That's what the Commission calls for.

 

[JohnDB]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

"Gold or Silver have I none"
Churches today can't say this.

Nor can they say the other half.
"What I do have I give you; In the Name of Jesus arise and walk"

Nothing invites crazies like religion and politics....
For whatever reason both seem to attract a huge number of those with a rather loose grip on reality.

However,

With Christianity there is the promotion of altruistic endeavors as well as restitution and forgiveness for past wrongs.....which promotes peace.

It's doing better than the others.
Kinda.

Of course there's the cultural Christians....
Then the crazy superpromoters
Prophet Peddlers for profit.