Is cessation an observation or theology?

[presidente]

I doubt very much they had Bible studies, like we do on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights. Women do participate in the adult class, but normally never teach kids above the accountability age.

Once worship begins, women are silent.

What do you think the 'accountability age' is?

 

[Anchorite]

Once again, false, since we’re all commanded to sing. No one sings alone, it’s done as a group.

Nobody prophesies today so it’s not even an issue.

The wine, just like the command about the women keeping silent, were universal statements.
Only elders are not to drink. The only command about alcohol is to NOT get drunk. This is pretty universal!!

No, plenty of vocalists sing alone, both male and female. They generally have musicians accompanying them.

Pay attention: this verse is what he referenced when he said Paul’s instructions to Timothy about wine not being universal, but being specific to Timothy.

1 Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thy frequent infirmities.

 

[TruthDefender]

What do you think the 'accountability age' is?

At what age did you understand, believe, have faith, and were baptized? It’s different for everyone.
The avg age is around (+12) yrs.

 

[TruthDefender]

No, plenty of vocalists sing alone, both male and female. They generally have musicians accompanying them.

Pay attention: this verse is what he referenced when he said Paul’s instructions to Timothy about wine not being universal, but being specific to Timothy.

1 Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thy frequent infirmities.

Vocalists, musicians? We don’t have such things?! There is NO example in the NT of such things. The whole church (members) sings hymns.

The letters maybe written to an individual, but are written for universal benefit, as is the whole bible.

Alcohol is not forbidden. There is no where in the bible that God forbids us from drinking. Jesus and His apostles drank wine. One of Jesus’ first miracles in Cana turned water into the best fermented wine ever! To say otherwise would be wresting Scripture.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I doubt very much they had Bible studies, like we do on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights. Women do participate in the adult class, but normally never teach kids above the accountability age.

Once worship begins, women are silent.

This goes too far. In Judges 5, Deborah, who was considered to be a prophetess and judge in Israel, sang before the people to celebrate their victory over Sisera. In the same way, Mirium, the sister of Moses, who was called “Miriam the prophetess” in Exodus 15:20 led the women in praise, dancing and celebrating with tamborines to celebrate their victory over Egypt at the Red Sea crossing. From these accounts we see that God uses women in in the prophetic office which involves speaking for God and leading congregations in worship. This is inconsistent with your idea that "once the worship begins, women must be silent"

You act like we can’t say anything. This is not what it says. We can’t usurp authority over men and this is what would happen during a worship assembly or conducting a class.

Far from it, I was saying women should not be put in the position of holding the ministerial office of a teacher which has been delegated to them by ELDERS (Ephesians 4:11)

When I mentioned the ministerial office of Prophet or Prophetess you denied these were still in effect

What you say doesn’t exist any longer. And I’m pretty sure they didn’t do it in the worship assembly.

Paul said the office of Prophet or Prophetess did exist at least it did when he wrote the epistle to the Corinthians.
What is the basis for your assumption that they ceased to exist? Paul said that the five-fold ministerial offices of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist had been given to the Church on the basis of Christ's ascension.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.7 Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8This is why it says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captives away,
and gave GIFTS to men.”
11 And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ,
13 UNTIL we ALL reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
(Ephesians 4:4-13)
Paul said that the work of the five fold ministry would cease only when the goals listed in verse 13 are reached

The edifying, exhorting, and comforting is done on a one to one basis.

Edification, exhortation and comfort is said to be the goal of prophetic speech. Can that only be accomplished ONLY on a private one-to-one basis? Don't you think others could also be blessed by something God speaks to an INDIVIDUAL. Also it would provide witnesses who could attest to the truth or falseness of the prophetic word.

The Jewish women were also not allowed to speak, let alone be with the men. They were separated.
Idk about the modern Jews; but this doesn’t matter any longer.

Among the Hasidim women are not allowed to be in the same service where their husbands are. I used to see the women outside attending to their many children while their husbands were inside their respective Beit Ha Cnessets. However, you might be onto something. If women were in the service but SITTING SEPARATELY. I can imagine how the women asking their husbands questions across the aisles might be why Paul had to tell them to be silent during Church service.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Vocalists, musicians? We don’t have such things?! There is NO example in the NT of such things. The whole church (members) sings hymns.

The letters maybe written to an individual, but are written for universal benefit, as is the whole bible.

Alcohol is not forbidden. There is no where in the bible that God forbids us from drinking. Jesus and His apostles drank wine. One of Jesus’ first miracles in Cana turned water into the best fermented wine ever! To say otherwise would be wresting Scripture.

I have cited several instances where women led congregational worship and played instruments. David, being a worshiper himself, set up teams of Levites who played instruments to glorify God. Why do you say you have no such thing? Do you belong to the Church of Christ which does not believe in instrumental worship?

 

[pinebeach]

At times, I have posed this question to those who are hard-line believers in WOF. "If you had been bitten by a dog who had symptomatic rabies, would you refuse treatment on the basis that you have been healed by faith - or would they take the vaccine?
I do not do this very often because I do not want to harden their hearts about it since, after all, rabies is universally known to be incurable as well as an utterly horrible way to die. I would likely advise them to go ahead and take the vaccine as a precautionary measure. This shows the dangers of dogmatically holding to WOF.

Issues relating to what is called Serious Mental Illness are also sometimes difficult to address because of the stigma associated with it and the fact that some fellow evangelicals believe mental illness is entirely due to demons. I have actually encountered people who had demons but, while it can RESEMBLE mental illness the demon always gives evidence of being a sentient being. As a Christian Counselor I have to discern the difference between people with damaged souls and those who are inhabited by demons. To tell you the truth, of these two possibilities, dealing with demons is easier.

By experience, I know that Christians can have mental illness since the brain is a physical organ which can malfunction just as any other physical organ can. When the brain's emotional/intellectual centers are malfunctioning, our inner spirit is taken for a stormy ride. However, I have learned (also by experience) how to ride out such storms of the soul while simultaneously feeling the presence and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is like the disciples being tossed about in a storm until Jesus who is in the boat with them says "fear not"

Great observations. WOF bascically tells God what to do and He does not do it, then your faith is 'weak'.

I would agree dealing with the demonic can be easier. Healing of the soul is a bigger challenge...so much spiritual abuse going on these days

 

[pinebeach]

I doubt very much they had Bible studies, like we do on Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights. Women do participate in the adult class, but normally never teach kids above the accountability age.

Once worship begins, women are silent.

What are you calling worship and why are women forced to be silent? If I understand what you are saying...

 

[Anchorite]

Vocalists, musicians? We don’t have such things?! There is NO example in the NT of such things. The whole church (members) sings hymns.

The letters maybe written to an individual, but are written for universal benefit, as is the whole bible.

There is also no example in the NT of:

hymnals
pianos
organs
collection plates
pledge cards
creed recitations
choirs
pews
pulpits
crosses
microphones
church bulletins
carpet
flags
seminaries
Bible colleges
daily devotions books
announcements
book clubs
nurseries
Sunday school
floral arrangements
tracts
coffee and donuts

 

[CS1]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

LOL what is funny is how you and your personal experience or lack therefore nullity's the healing and miraculous working of GOD by the Holy Spirit. I also do not see any Biblical text to support your own personal experience which means your opinion is just that. What do notice is the lack of acknowledging what is known as the Times of "Silence of God," Intertestamental Period."
There are gaps between the move of God where God did not speak nor do any recorded Miracles. 400 year between Old and New Testament. Was God dead? Did God no longer consider performing miracles? Four hundreds one might think God has ceased in speaking or performing signs and wonder as he did and is recorded throughout the Old Testaments

Mal 3:6-7


“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
7 Yet from the days of your fathers
You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
This is the issue God and man . Sin. Even today sin stops Gods hand from moving as he Said "You have gone away from my ordinances(word) and have not kept them.

Joel 2:12-13 is recorded as saying :

Now, therefore,” says the Lord,
“Turn to Me with all your heart,
With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning.”
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.


Joel 2:28-29


“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.


Notice that repentances precedes the move of God and his hand working for man.

Jesus said the same Spirit who is with him will be with us and in us John 14:


15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16; And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
repentance, Obedience, and empowerment is what Jesus said every Believer would receive. Acts 1:8.
This has not stopped. Just as the Bible records times and season of the people of God not receiving word from God or any experiences of the miraculous for four Hundred years did not mean he stopped doing them. The Church after the persecution age of the church stopped and the "Politics entered the church" with Constantine as the Roman emperor in 312 AD.
This was not a good thing for the church. Although persecution stopped so did the move of God in power as before.
This removed the real experience of God saving power which also led the church into a dark time of Error and unbiblical doctrine. Which continued until Around 1520 when the Reformers, led by Martin Luther in Germany, began to restore the truth of salvation by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus.

IN all these things God down through the ages we see documented eye witnesses of Healing and empowerments of the Holy Spirit. The Organized Church sought to control that. what was known as Movements were happening and documented. Healing , salvations and miracles.


This has not changed. The People of God must repent , and return to the word of God.

There are millions today and many medical doctors who have testified it people being healed and do not know why. Other than the consistent narrative They believed God did it. Ones lacking experience an the lack of what is clearly seen in scripture as times when God was not speaking or doing any notable miracle that was witnessed by man. Yet as He did then and today he poured out His Spirit and confirms his word with signs and wonders.

 

[CS1]

In answering the question,' Is cessation an observation or a theology'?
I would think it is both. If one looks objectively at the activities of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements, there is little New Testament equivalence.
Theologically, the evidence from the New Testament points to the fact that the 'sign gifts' and Offices of Apostle and Prophet, were foundational.
As to healing, the Cessationalist position is that God still heals today in answer to prayer. But the 'gift of healing', is past.

it is not both LOL. in fact the poster of this thread said "

"I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament."



It's not lack of Biblical evidence, it is a bias. One says I find little in scripture to support Cessationism. that's because 1Corthat 13:8-10 doesn't say it has. That only text they have and created a false narrative of the Canonization of the Bible the gifts of the Spirit stopped. They were called on it. So they attack because they were exposed as being unbiblical.

many of us have said the foolishness done by those in the Pentecostal / Chiasmatic movements are error and wrong! None more than I. I don't follow Youtube or TBN personality "icons."

I learned that in the 80's when the word of faith movement took off . However, the eye witnesses and testimonies of millions are there. Are they all lying? Ones bad unwilling to forgive can prevent one from seeing the real over the fake. I get it. many were and are hurt by this foolishness. Yet many are not.

 

[CS1]

I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.

It seems that the miraculous New Testament types of manifestations have ceased to exist.

Most New Testament miracles were meant to be observed and not simply claimed.

They were used as a means to increase faith and their supernatural essence was not debated.

This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.

Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

nus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.

Jesus did.

So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.

you can't change the mind of one who is unwilling to see.

 

[TruthDefender]

This goes too far. In Judges 5, Deborah, who was considered to be a prophetess and judge in Israel, sang before the people to celebrate their victory over Sisera. In the same way, Mirium, the sister of Moses, who was called “Miriam the prophetess” in Exodus 15:20 led the women in praise, dancing and celebrating with tamborines to celebrate their victory over Egypt at the Red Sea crossing. From these accounts we see that God uses women in in the prophetic office which involves speaking for God and leading congregations in worship. This is inconsistent with your idea that "once the worship begins, women must be silent"

Yes, but they weren’t in the synagogue. And again, we are no longer under the OC. In the synagogue, the sexes were separated, and women kept silent.

Far from it, I was saying women should not be put in the position of holding the ministerial office of a teacher which has been delegated to them by ELDERS (Ephesians 4:11)

When I mentioned the ministerial office of Prophet or Prophetess you denied these were still in effect

They aren’t. It’s pretty simple to understand:

“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Paul said the office of Prophet or Prophetess did exist at least it did when he wrote the epistle to the Corinthians.
What is the basis for your assumption that they ceased to exist? Paul said that the five-fold ministerial offices of Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Teacher and Evangelist had been given to the Church on the basis of Christ's ascension.

Yes, during the time of the apostles. They didn’t have the Bible at that time (this was the perfect thing that came, which is why everything else ceased). The Holy Spirit was telling them where to go, what to speak, what to write, etc.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.7 Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8This is why it says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captives away,
and gave GIFTS to men.”
11 And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ,
13 UNTIL we ALL reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
(Ephesians 4:4-13)
Paul said that the work of the five fold ministry would cease only when the goals listed in verse 13 are reached

Amen! The unity of the faith has come. You may not see it where you worship. I see all of this in the NC, which the church should be following. If you don’t see it, then the church is not following the NC doctrine.

We have no apostles, or prophets today. They all ceased, because we have that which is perfect—-His written word.

Edification, exhortation and comfort is said to be the goal of prophetic speech. Can that only be accomplished ONLY on a private one-to-one basis? Don't you think others could also be blessed by something God speaks to an INDIVIDUAL. Also it would provide witnesses who could attest to the truth or falseness of the prophetic word.

Yes of course!

Among the Hasidim women are not allowed to be in the same service where their husbands are. I used to see the women outside attending to their many children while their husbands were inside their respective Beit Ha Cnessets. However, you might be onto something. If women were in the service but SITTING SEPARATELY. I can imagine how the women asking their husbands questions across the aisles might be why Paul had to tell them to be silent during Church service.

There you go! This is an example during the first century. Although, I don’t see this as an example in the church (the sexes, as far as I can see, were not separated) only in the synagogue (Maybe someone else can give scripture for examples?). Remember, there were many Gentiles who joined the church so Jewish traditions waned considerably.

However, the women being quiet during worship assembly still stands, except maybe during adult class time. There are some women who won’t even speak during class, too.

 

[TruthDefender]

What are you calling worship and why are women forced to be silent? If I understand what you are saying...

Worship is when all the members are in the assembly listening to the preacher. Worship would include communion, prayer, singing, sermon (although we all sing acapela).

We try to do things according to Scripture.

“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭14‬:‭34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[TruthDefender]

There is also no example in the NT of:

hymnals
pianos
organs
collection plates
pledge cards
creed recitations
choirs
pews
pulpits
crosses
microphones
church bulletins
carpet
flags
seminaries
Bible colleges
daily devotions books
announcements
book clubs
nurseries
Sunday school
floral arrangements
tracts
coffee and donuts

There are no examples of cars either, your point?

 

[CS1]

No, you are thinking of the revival that started in New York. The Azuza Street revival, so called, was started by a one eyed, Afro-American preacher. He had recently imbibed the doctrine that the initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, was speaking in tongues. And that is what he preached and admonished Christians to seek after. Unfortunately, He spent his time in the meetings with his head in a box while the meetings were bedlam.

that is simply not correct. William Joseph Seymour was a man of God who had to go to Bible school and learn while sitting in the hall with the door open because he could not be in the room with white Christians. The context of initial evidence that you are grossly unfamiliar with. failed to point out prophesying also. IN every documented empowerment of the Holy Spirit all spoke in an unknown language or prophesied. As recorded in the book of Acts. 1cor chapter 12 through 14 tell us to use them in love and in discipline and to desire them and forbid not speaking in tongues. If you read chapter 12 though 14 contextually one will see that all three chapters are known as units. Meaning the context did not end in 1cor 13:8-10 but ended in 1cor chapter 14:40. (Also Paul did not write numbering verses that was added many years letter. )


Those for and against must stop cherry picking the text. That being said my Cessationists brother's and sister's

only have 1cor 13:8-10 as their supporting text.

Rev. William Joseph Seymour a one-eyed man for biblical support has:

Joel 2:28, John 14, 15, and 16, mark 16:16-18 Luke 24:49. Acts 1:8, 2:4, Acts 8:14–17, Acts 10:44–45, Acts 19:2–6, 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

Rev. Seymour saw all that with one eye and during white discrimination. You only have one text or two verses?

I think his one eye is far ore discerning then your two. Just my observation. But I can be wrong, can you show me with Scripture?

 

[Anchorite]

There are no examples of cars either, your point?

You said your church does not use musicians because there is not NT example of it. I am sure your church uses many things that are not exemplified in the NT.

You post on an online Christian forum. But there is no NT example of this either.

You live in contradictions.

 

[CS1]

There are no examples of cars either, your point?

Manic laughter is not supernatural but a sign of a frenzied state of emotions. It can also be Pseudobulbar affect or simply fake.

Is it physical? Yes.
Is it a manifestation? Yes.
Is it supernatural? No.


No, the Pentecostal Movement is simply a man made fraud.
It is not supernatural, it is not demonic, it is just a theology based on lies. Much like Mormonism.
Does Satan approve of this movement? Certainly.
But the Pentecostals do not need his help, they are doing a great job on their own.

well, the hate i have seen here is very interesting. yet none of you have provided biblical text to support your position. It is very funny.


You use things outside of the word of Gos to prove your position. Feelings, personal experiences or the lack therefore. As if GOD needed you to validate HIS Healing or word LOL.

 

[CS1]

This is about the claims of the Pentecostal Movement, not whether God is still doing miracles.

Of course God is still doing miracles!!!

My exposing the farce of the Pentecostal Movement does not deny the physical supernatural ability of God to act in our world.
What is wrong with you. Get a grip on your emotions.

God is not limited by the unbelief of humans to produce miracles. Just read Mark 3:1-6.
Jesus healed the crippled hand in front of hard hearted unbelievers.

Jesus was not bound to not perform miracles in Nazareth.
He certainly did perform miracles in Nazareth.
Just not as many.

Your reasoning here is a sign of your uncritical judgement toward scripture.

IOW, you are grasping for reasons why the Pentecostal Movement is not mimicking the New Testament.

LOL yes God still does Miracles but I have not seen one. Talking out both side of the mouth. Tell all to geta grip on our emotions LOL but is upset because he has not seen God do what other have. Call other devils but acts like a big baby.

 

[CS1]

How does this have anything to do with the claims that the miraculous events of the New Testament are still ongoing???

how can you say they are not ?