Is cessation an observation or theology?

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Perhaps I not being clear....I hear that alot. My point is no matter what the few elite and literary knew, there is no evidence that any of that was known by the masses, pre or post exilic. Elephante was post exilic yet these Jews named their kids after all kinds gods. Yet they had a liturgy that united them and connected them to the Temple in Jerusalem with whom they communicated and we have some of those documents. They knew nothing about the 10 commandments. There was a fair amount of literature starting around 700 BC will writing by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk and Zephaniah were probably in existence pre-exile.

These and other Hebrew Bible relied on a host of source materials all or which are named in the HB but none exist today. This indicates a cloistered elite writers doing research to craft their work using other writings including: the Book of Jasher, Book of the Wars of the Lord, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, (both mentioned over 30 times), Book of Shemaiah, Story of the Prophet Iddo, Book of Statutes, Acts of Solomon, Annals of King David, Book of Samuel the Seer, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Gad the Seer, Book of Anijah, Book of Jehu, Acts of Uzziah, Vision of Isaiah, Sayings of the Seers, Laments of Josiah and Chronicles of King Ahasuerus. As reference books were part of the composition of the early writers it is not a stretch they knew of the ancient legends of Sumeria (Home of Abraham) and Akkad.
You’re right that most ordinary Israelites weren’t literate and didn’t personally read written law or prophetic books. But in the Bible, the covenant was never built on everyone reading scrolls; it was built on priests teaching, prophets speaking, elders leading, and public reading that shaped the whole community.
Even when people couldn’t read, they still lived inside a world formed by sacrifices, festivals, clean/unclean laws, temple worship, and prophetic warnings.
That’s why the Old Testament keeps saying Israel “forgot” the covenant — you can’t forget something you never had.
Elephantine shows syncretism, not ignorance; they mixed Yahweh with other gods, but they still had a temple liturgy and wrote to Jerusalem about it.
As for the lost books you listed, that actually supports the opposite point: Israel had a long, deep tradition of writing, records, prophets, and history, even if only trained scribes handled the documents.
The biblical authors used sources just like any ancient historian would, but that doesn’t mean they invented Israel’s story or borrowed Babylonian myths wholesale.
Israel’s flood story, creation story, and covenant story have a completely different message than the Sumerian or Akkadian versions — they’re about one God, human sin, covenant, and redemption, not cosmic violence or royal propaganda.
So yes, the masses were mostly illiterate, but that never meant Israel had “no Torah” or “no tradition.” It just means the covenant was carried through teaching, worship, memory, and community, not personal reading.
 
Inquisitor:
You miss my point. I am not making any claim about when any part of the Hebrew Bible was WRITTEN. We do know it was under regular changes and merges after the original was written. Using the book of Joshua to prove anything is a big stretch.

My point is not when something might have been written, but when the population and the culture started observing anything that was written. The vast majority of Judeans were farmers, vintners and herders. They were illiterate. They didn't even have standard weights and measurements till the Assyrians who ran Israel for 100 years brought those standards. Because the population could not read or write the Assyrians taught them how to bullae which were a carved image unique to a town or a person with large wine production. Knowing that these people were illiterate, they could use their bullae to stamp the handles of unfired clay jars before being filled with wine. There were sizes of 38 and 42 liters. This reality on the ground is just one reality of why there was a huge gap in the literacy of the Judean population. As the book of Jeremiah says only 4,600 elites were taken into Babylonian captivity. The workers and illiterate farmers, herders and vintners were not needed. While in Babylon the Hebrews learned the Babylonian stories of a great flood and God selecting one family to save the world. In Babylon they learned the story of Sargon the Great whose mother had to hide him by putting him in a reed constructed basket with pitch to seal it and it was sent on the Euphrates river to be found by a gardner of the king. He was raised as part of that kings family and eventually Sargon became ruler of the Kingdom and the conqueror of the age. The book of Chronicles written after the exile retells the book of Kings story but completely changes the story of David and Solomon.
When it comes to literacy we are not discussing whether goat herders wrote a book in the O.T.

Nor are we discussing economic developments in Israel.

Ancient Israel and Judah developed a preliminary scribal and administrative literate class as early as the 10th century BCE,
according to archaeological and epigraphic evidence. (AI).

Did a priestly and administrative class exist before the 10th century? We are restricted by our archaeological and epigraphic
evidence that we have found and analyzed. No one has any idea when these classes began!

There is a limitation on drawing any strong conclusions in ancient history because of the lack of hard evidence.

You realize that Moses (Egyptian name) may well have been highly literate and may have written early law?

Obviously, events were memorized and the law was memorized and handed down mainly by word of mouth.

Yet, we are largely ignorant of when the law in what ever earlier form it took, could have been in a written form.

The modern population of the entire world is grossly ignorant and just as ignorant as goat herders.
 
I might make the observation that the Jews did not come under the Law of Moses until approximately 250 BC.

Prior to that, there is not only no evidence that the Jewish people and their Jewish culture had any knowledge much less practice of the Jewish law. They are non-kosher, they regularly violated the no graven images law. They worshipped YHWH as the chief God in the Divine Council but they continued to honor other "gods" as well. They used earthen vessels to cook which only very later were changed to stone cooking ware when they discovered the Law of Moses required them to destroy a earthen vessel if a bug walked across it. The movement to stoneware happened around the same time, 250 BC. When the Jewish Temple was built at Elephantine in the 400's BC the Temple in Jerusalem was in full support of the Jewish soldiers working in Egypt to have their own temple. Obviously, nobody knew of any prohibition against a Jewish Temple anywhere but Jerusalem. There is no written or cultural evidence that anybody had any knowledge of or paracted the 10 Commandment as there are large troves of documents taken from the Jewish Temple in Elephantine.

By about 250 BC with the rise of the Hasmonean Dynasty in Israel, the Synagog system started then and for the first time the largely illiterate population could hear the Torah, Prophets and the writings. Prior to about 250 BC there was little or no use of theophoric names. (Using some version of YHWH in name so children. There was no ritual use of bathing/cleansing as required in the Torah. Their coins had graven images on them including the images of foreign gods and images of the High Priest. Until around 250 BC the Jews failed totally to observe Mezuzah. Which was a command in Deuteronomy to put a sign on the right doorpost of your house with a small rolled up version of the Schema. After that time they were found everywhere that archeologists looked at those ancient houses.

The idea that Moses wrote the Torah is strictly a claim made in two limited places in the Torah and by tradition, but no matter when a historic Moses may have existed it was long before any literary Hebrew written texts existed or could have been used for a Torah.

Thus, IMHO, the proper claim is Gentiles were never under the Hebrew laws, though many read the same prophets and writings. By the time of Jesus, Jewish law instructs that people outside the Land of Israel should face toward the Holy Land and Jerusalem during the Amidah (the central silent prayer). In the Torah it clearly states that only in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem could God be worshipped. However, with the rapid spread of the Synagog system, those living outside of Judah worshipped in their Synagogues instead. This formed the bedrock of Christianity as Paul and other evangelists started their mission by preaching in the various Synagogues around the Mediterranean.
You have hit on the exact nerve that divides mainstream biblical minimalism/maximalism and drives modern textual criticism: the problem of the "Scribal Update" and the limits of epigraphic survival.
You are completely correct that ancient texts were routinely updated, modernized, and harmonized by successive generations of scribes. This fluid transmission makes pinning down an original "autograph" date using language alone incredibly complex, and it means the absence of physical evidence is the defining challenge of the field.
Here is a breakdown of how historians navigate the very limitations you pointed out, and why the debate remains so contentious.



The Problem of the "Scribal Update" (Anachronism vs. Archaisms)
Scribes did not treat texts like modern photocopiers; they treated them like living traditions. They updated spelling (orthography), grammar, and even place names to make sense to their contemporary audiences (e.g., using the name "Dan" in Genesis 14:14 long before the tribe of Dan conquered that territory).
Because of this, scholars look for two opposing signals:
  • The Floor (The Latest Layer): The modernized language tells us the minimum age—the text was still being actively copied or edited at that specific time.
  • The Anchor (The Archaic Layer): Scribes frequently left ancient poetic structures untouched because poetry is harder to update without ruining the rhythm. Texts like the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15) and the Song of Deborah (Judges 5) contain highly archaic Hebrew vocabulary and grammar that mirror 12th-to-10th-century BCE Canaanite/Ugaritic poetry. While the prose around them was updated, these poetic cores suggest a much older oral or written origin.



The Illiteracy Fallacy & The Elite Class
Your point about literacy is crucial. Debating whether the "average Israelite peasant" could read is a distraction. Ancient Near Eastern law codes were never written for the masses; they were tools of the priestly, royal, and administrative elites.
We know that complex scribal infrastructure existed in the region far earlier than the 7th century:
  • The Amarna Letters (14th Century BCE): Long before Israel existed as a kingdom, Canaanite scribes in Jerusalem, Shechem, and Megiddo were writing sophisticated diplomatic correspondence in Akkadian cuneiform to Egypt. The capacity for elite administration was already there.
  • The Epigraphic Gap: Perishable materials like papyrus and parchment rot rapidly in the damp soil of the Judean highlands. The only reason we have the Dead Sea Scrolls is the freakishly arid climate of the Qumran caves. In Jerusalem, unless something was carved in stone or stamped on clay (like bullae), it vanished.
Therefore, arguing that "the law didn't exist in 900 BCE because we haven't found a scroll from 900 BCE" is archaeologically naive.
(AI)
 
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You have hit on the exact nerve that divides mainstream biblical minimalism/maximalism and drives modern textual criticism: the problem of the "Scribal Update" and the limits of epigraphic survival.
You are completely correct that ancient texts were routinely updated, modernized, and harmonized by successive generations of scribes. This fluid transmission makes pinning down an original "autograph" date using language alone incredibly complex, and it means the absence of physical evidence is the defining challenge of the field.
Here is a breakdown of how historians navigate the very limitations you pointed out, and why the debate remains so contentious.



The Problem of the "Scribal Update" (Anachronism vs. Archaisms)
Scribes did not treat texts like modern photocopiers; they treated them like living traditions. They updated spelling (orthography), grammar, and even place names to make sense to their contemporary audiences (e.g., using the name "Dan" in Genesis 14:14 long before the tribe of Dan conquered that territory).
Because of this, scholars look for two opposing signals:
  • The Floor (The Latest Layer): The modernized language tells us the minimum age—the text was still being actively copied or edited at that specific time.
  • The Anchor (The Archaic Layer): Scribes frequently left ancient poetic structures untouched because poetry is harder to update without ruining the rhythm. Texts like the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15) and the Song of Deborah (Judges 5) contain highly archaic Hebrew vocabulary and grammar that mirror 12th-to-10th-century BCE Canaanite/Ugaritic poetry. While the prose around them was updated, these poetic cores suggest a much older oral or written origin.



The Illiteracy Fallacy & The Elite Class
Your point about literacy is crucial. Debating whether the "average Israelite peasant" could read is a distraction. Ancient Near Eastern law codes were never written for the masses; they were tools of the priestly, royal, and administrative elites.
We know that complex scribal infrastructure existed in the region far earlier than the 7th century:
  • The Amarna Letters (14th Century BCE): Long before Israel existed as a kingdom, Canaanite scribes in Jerusalem, Shechem, and Megiddo were writing sophisticated diplomatic correspondence in Akkadian cuneiform to Egypt. The capacity for elite administration was already there.
  • The Epigraphic Gap: Perishable materials like papyrus and parchment rot rapidly in the damp soil of the Judean highlands. The only reason we have the Dead Sea Scrolls is the freakishly arid climate of the Qumran caves. In Jerusalem, unless something was carved in stone or stamped on clay (like bullae), it vanished.
Therefore, arguing that "the law didn't exist in 900 BCE because we haven't found a scroll from 900 BCE" is archaeologically naive.
(AI)
Much of what you said is accurate to the degree we can expect to achieve "accuracy." However your idea the absence of counter facts is proof of the facts is not logical. The dating of many original composers of the Hebrew bible is exactly because they reflect the issues and the events of their times as it relates to other known historic events.

Your idea that "epigraphic" is the only evidence we have is false. I won't go too far into the physical sciences to demonstrate all the ways that time stamp biblical events.
Chronology – Establishes the relative date and/or the specific date of a given sample
Paleomagnetic / Archaeomagnetic dating: By studying the changes in the magnetic signature of deposits, artifacts, but particularly soil disturbance, archaeologists and paleontologists can determine precise dates. There are two ways a magnetic signature forms - firstly through extreme heat such as in pottery production or hearth fires. The second is water deposition which essentially “freezes” that magnetic particle in places. This method has been a vital method for some 70 years in discovering dates for ancient archaeological/anthropological deposits. It has a limit of up to 10,000 years.
Paleobotany is used to determine the plants what existed in a stratum.
Coprolite Analysis: The analysis of ancient animal and human feces for dietary data.
Photogrammetry: The science and technology of obtaining reliable information about physical objects through the process of recording, measuring and interpreting photographic images and patterns of electromagnetic radiant imagery.
LiDAR: Makes it possible to measure and map objects that might otherwise remain hidden.
Near-surface geophysics: The use of geophysical methods to investigate small-scale features in the shallow (tens of meters) subsurface. Methods used include seismic refraction and reflection, gravity, magnetic, electric, and electromagnetic mapping.
Ground Penetrating Radar: Really help with surveying sensitive archeological sites remotely and non-destructively by identifying archeological components from the site’s natural soils.
DNA: The analysis that can determine the details of a once living plant or animal.
Archeologists take cores of sediments from the Dead Sea and Sea of Galilee in order to obtain information on paleoclimate, subsistence practices and settlement oscillations.
The life of Ancient Israel is seen via ceramic petrography: reconstructing production and trade patterns in ceramic vessels – the most common type of macro-artifact in the field.
They use metallurgy: tracking technological advances, specifically the shift from bronze to iron, during the Iron I–IIA period.
They examine the daily mathematics of dimensions: examining pottery vessels to discern, for example, the relationship between units of length and volume for the sake of determining the “mathematical” knowledge of the people of the Iron Age.
Epigraphy is the study of the development of writing in Israel and Judah using advanced computational methodologies
They identity of Ancient Israel is seen via residue analysis of pottery vessels to determine the usage of vessels, culinary practices and long-distance trade. They use Archaeo-zoology studying many different plant and animal remains to calculate the day-to-day eating and cooking techniques of ancient people.

Radiocarbon dating: Arguably the best-known of all absolute dating methods, radiocarbon dating has gone through several changes since discovery in 1960, initially measuring RC12 but now used RC14 as a much more reliable isotope for examination. It measures the amount of radiocarbon in the atmosphere against that in organic materials. When organic life dies, it stops a carbon exchange with the environment

As an example that vastly bigger and more powerful Northern Kingdom of Israel had a distinctly negative attitude about David and Solomon who competed with them. The idea that the kingdom was not split until Jeroboam, son of Solomon is most likely just a narrative of later scribes in Judah. Of the 12 tribes of Israel all but 2 lived in the northern kingdom so the effective divide happened before Jeroboam. Thus the northerners had a distinctively negative perspective of both David, murder, adulture and former protection racket rogue and Solomon who brough foreign gods and make the Jews worship them. . In David's time Jerusalem might have had 1,500 people, a small village of it's time of about 12 acres. In the time of Solomon Jerusalem was around 30 acres with perhaps 2,500 people. Later - post exilic writers of Chronicles rehabilitates David and Solomon because the returning from Babylonian captivity of 50+ thousand Jews needed to believe in a more "holy and Godly" origin story. The moral of this story is that Hebrew Bible writers were writing for their people, in their times abou issues most important to them. But they "forgot" to tell about the Great Bronze Age Collapse and the fact that Judea was a vassal state in the Assyrian Empire for 100 years.
 
There are lots of people out there who will promise you a miracle, given you can afford it.

Anytime I need a miracle, I deal directly with the Source (the Lord) Who already paid for any miracle I would ever be in need of.

I don't tolerate cessation or any of the false doctrine coming out of reformed theology in my household.

They done come way way too late to try and convince me the Lord doesn't do miracles anymore. My entire life is a miracle!
 
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Radiocarbon dating

That's so old.

They have internetcarbon dating now run by AI that claims AI is God and all the people will be following AI soon.

Christians taking AI's mark of the beast will no longer be saved.

Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
Anytime I need a miracle, I deal directly with the Source (the Lord) Who already paid for any miracle I would ever be in need of.

I don't tolerate cessation or any of the false doctrine coming out of reformed theology in my household.

They done come way way too late to try and convince me the Lord doesn't do miracles anymore. My entire life is a miracle!
ScooterJackson
As I have noted before, IMHO the idea of cessation only came about as the Roman Empire took control over the Christian church and booked no competition from those who claimed special knowledge from God or special powers from God. I also believe that by wrongly defining special gifts as only speaking in tongues we miss the real power of God to transform our lives and deliver special blessings in response to our prayers.
 
That's so old.

They have internetcarbon dating now run by AI that claims AI is God and all the people will be following AI soon.

Christians taking AI's mark of the beast will no longer be saved.

Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If ANY MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
ScooterJackson
I got your Radiocarbon dating is "so old." Very clever humor.
Carbon-12 is a stable, non-radioactive atom that makes up about 99% of all carbon on Earth. It does not break down or change over time, providing a steady baseline for measurement.Carbon-14 is a rare, radioactive atom created in the atmosphere by cosmic rays. Living plants and animals absorb it at a stable ratio relative to carbon-12 while they are alive.

The Decay Ratio: When an organism dies, it stops taking in new carbon. The carbon-14 slowly decays into nitrogen-14, but the carbon-12 stays the same. By comparing how much carbon-14 is left compared to the constant carbon-12, scientists can calculate how long ago the organism died. Limitations of the Carbon Ratio Half-Life: The half-life of carbon-14 is roughly 5,730 years, meaning half of the radioactive atoms disappear in that span. Age Limit: After about 50,000 to 60,000 years, the remaining amount of carbon-14 is too small to measure accurately against carbon-12

With good samples these methods have shown accuracy of +/- 100 years out of 1,000 years.

A.I. is not used as these are basic measurable atomic variables. A.I. may be used later to better combine all radiocarbon dating projects into one more unified perspective.
 
Acts 20:29,30
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

All manner of false teachings were brought in especially when Rome supposedly made Christianity their state religion and when doing so they had to allow all who were following false religions to come in too with their false doctrine (like Augustine)

This is where the roman catholic church got started and how it embraced all the false doctrine they teach today
 
A.I. is not used as these are basic measurable atomic variables. A.I. may be used later to better combine all radiocarbon dating projects into one more unified perspective.

AI will claim to be god eventually and the masses will follow the "image of the beast"

It's coming so check yourself before you wreck yourself.

AI is a tool of satan to be used to lead the masses to hell.

And BTW, so called carbon dating is faulty. Only what God says in His Word is Truth.
 
Acts 20:29,30
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

All manner of false teachings were brought in especially when Rome supposedly made Christianity their state religion and when doing so they had to allow all who were following false religions to come in too with their false doctrine (like Augustine)

This is where the roman catholic church got started and how it embraced all the false doctrine they teach today
ScooterJackson,
The fact on the ground before Rome took over the Church is that there was a very large and varied practice of Christianity. Not all congregations recognized the same scrolls as authoritative. Many revered as inspired books that modern Christians have never even heard of. What books that were "finalized." Regional Christian councils—including the Council of Rome in 382 AD, the Council of Hippo in 393 AD, and the Council of Carthage in 397 AD—formally affirmed these 27 books as authoritative. That did not mean that all churches everywhere accepted the choices of these Christian Councils. Those in those councils were Christian leader from around the Mediterranean and did not include any Roman government input. What did change is that number happened in 405 AD the total Biblical canon was increased to 73 books. In the 16th century the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books were moved into the Apropha leaving 66 books in the Protestant bible.

Importantly, in 1873 a "book" was found named the Didache. It was a first century description of the beliefs of the very early Church.. Among other things it forbade abortion and infanticide. It was not about Christian theology but about Christian practices. It had major headings. The Way of Life: Based on loving God and neighbor, praying for enemies, and following the commandments. It echoes Jesus's Sermon on the Mount closely. The Way of Death: A detailed catalog of sins, including theft, murder, hypocrisy, and greed. Baptism: It prefers baptism by immersion in "living" (running) cold water. However, it offers a realistic concession: if running water isn't available, warm water or even pouring water over the head three times (affusion) is acceptable.

Fasting and Prayer: Christians are commanded to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays to deliberately contrast with Jewish practices ("the hypocrites") who fasted on Mondays and Thursdays. It also orders the faithful to pray the Lord's Prayer three times a day.
 
Christians are commanded to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays

Chapter and verse please. From the new testament.

The fact of the matter is satan is continually doing the same thing he's always done which is to insert his own faulty interpretation of what the Lord says to lead people in to sin.

Most people are religiously gullible so they end up following the devil's religious teachings instead of following the Lord so there are many tares among the true children of the Lord
 
Much of what you said is accurate to the degree we can expect to achieve "accuracy." However your idea the absence of counter facts is proof of the facts is not logical. The dating of many original composers of the Hebrew bible is exactly because they reflect the issues and the events of their times as it relates to other known historic events.

Your idea that "epigraphic" is the only evidence we have is false. I won't go too far into the physical sciences to demonstrate all the ways that time stamp biblical events.
Chronology – Establishes the relative date and/or the specific date of a given sample
Paleomagnetic / Archaeomagnetic dating: By studying the changes in the magnetic signature of deposits, artifacts, but particularly soil disturbance, archaeologists and paleontologists can determine precise dates. There are two ways a magnetic signature forms - firstly through extreme heat such as in pottery production or hearth fires. The second is water deposition which essentially “freezes” that magnetic particle in places. This method has been a vital method for some 70 years in discovering dates for ancient archaeological/anthropological deposits. It has a limit of up to 10,000 years.
Paleobotany is used to determine the plants what existed in a stratum.
Coprolite Analysis: The analysis of ancient animal and human feces for dietary data.
Photogrammetry: The science and technology of obtaining reliable information about physical objects through the process of recording, measuring and interpreting photographic images and patterns of electromagnetic radiant imagery.
LiDAR: Makes it possible to measure and map objects that might otherwise remain hidden.
Near-surface geophysics: The use of geophysical methods to investigate small-scale features in the shallow (tens of meters) subsurface. Methods used include seismic refraction and reflection, gravity, magnetic, electric, and electromagnetic mapping.
Ground Penetrating Radar: Really help with surveying sensitive archeological sites remotely and non-destructively by identifying archeological components from the site’s natural soils.
DNA: The analysis that can determine the details of a once living plant or animal.
Archeologists take cores of sediments from the Dead Sea and Sea of Galilee in order to obtain information on paleoclimate, subsistence practices and settlement oscillations.
The life of Ancient Israel is seen via ceramic petrography: reconstructing production and trade patterns in ceramic vessels – the most common type of macro-artifact in the field.
They use metallurgy: tracking technological advances, specifically the shift from bronze to iron, during the Iron I–IIA period.
They examine the daily mathematics of dimensions: examining pottery vessels to discern, for example, the relationship between units of length and volume for the sake of determining the “mathematical” knowledge of the people of the Iron Age.
Epigraphy is the study of the development of writing in Israel and Judah using advanced computational methodologies
They identity of Ancient Israel is seen via residue analysis of pottery vessels to determine the usage of vessels, culinary practices and long-distance trade. They use Archaeo-zoology studying many different plant and animal remains to calculate the day-to-day eating and cooking techniques of ancient people.

Radiocarbon dating: Arguably the best-known of all absolute dating methods, radiocarbon dating has gone through several changes since discovery in 1960, initially measuring RC12 but now used RC14 as a much more reliable isotope for examination. It measures the amount of radiocarbon in the atmosphere against that in organic materials. When organic life dies, it stops a carbon exchange with the environment

As an example that vastly bigger and more powerful Northern Kingdom of Israel had a distinctly negative attitude about David and Solomon who competed with them.
You can employ scientific information in your replies if you wish.

Of the 12 tribes of Israel all but 2 lived in the northern kingdom so the effective divide happened before Jeroboam. Thus the northerners had a distinctively negative perspective of both David, murder, adulture and former protection racket rogue and Solomon who brough foreign gods and make the Jews worship them. . In David's time Jerusalem might have had 1,500 people, a small village of it's time of about 12 acres. In the time of Solomon Jerusalem was around 30 acres with perhaps 2,500 people.

The paragraph is partially correct regarding the modest size of early Jerusalem and the theological motivations of post-exilic writers, but it is incorrect about the Bronze Age collapse and claims that Assyrian vassalage was omitted from the Bible.



Jerusalem’s Size and Population (Mostly Correct)
    • David’s Time: Archaeological estimates place Jerusalem (the City of David) at roughly 10 to 12 acres, with a modest highland population of around 1,000 to 1,500 people. [1, 2]
    • Solomon’s Time: The city expanded somewhat northward toward the Temple Mount, growing to roughly 30 to 40 acres and a population of 2,000 to 4,500 people. While some maximalist archaeologists argue for a larger administrative center, this depiction aligns with minimalist archaeological consensus describing a small regional capital rather than a massive empire. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Post-Exilic Writers and Chronicles (Correct in Spirit)
    • Rehabilitating the Monarchy: Books like 1 and 2 Chronicles were compiled during the post-exilic period (Persian era) to rebuild community identity.
    • Theological Focus: They do tend to gloss over the flaws of David and Solomon compared to the earlier books of Samuel and Kings, providing returning exiles with an idealized, holy heritage and blueprint for restoration.

The Bronze Age Collapse and Assyrian Vassalage (Incorrect)
    • The Bronze Age Collapse: This massive societal collapse occurred around 1200 BCE, which predates King David by roughly two centuries (c. 1000 BCE). It was not omitted out of forgetfulness; it simply happened before the United Monarchy period began. [1]
    • Assyrian Vassalage: The Hebrew Bible does not forget or omit that Judah was an Assyrian vassal. The Books of Kings and Isaiah explicitly document Judah paying heavy tribute to Neo-Assyrian emperors like Tiglath-Pileser III, Sargon II, and Sennacherib (famous for besieging Hezekiah). The text records these events through a theological lens—attributing political defeat or survival to the spiritual faithfulness of the kings—rather than ignoring them. [1, 2, 3]

The paragraph is partially correct regarding the modest size of early Jerusalem and the theological motivations of post-exilic writers, but it is incorrect about the Bronze Age collapse and claims that Assyrian vassalage was omitted from the Bible.


 
Inquisitor:
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I want to take up the conversation further on several issues.
Historical timelines: You recognize there are biblical scholars that look at a series of facts and come to different opinions. The idea of the "Maximalists" and "Minimalists" are inventions of popular culture, not of scholarship. When "Biblical Archeology" evolved in the 19th and early 20th century, churches funded "research" in Israel and surrounding areas with a bible in one hand and a shovel in the other figuratively speaking. In this period there was little or not "archeological sciences." Data was compared to the bible for confirmation of it's interpretation. Between large gaps in data, these biblical archeologists filled in the gaps using their understanding of the biblical sources. Today's archeologists deploy a huge panoply of scientific and engineering tools to evaluate data. The archeological excavations Megiddo have been ongoing since the 1920's. Conclusions drawn today based on scientific verification provide massively more data that the "biblical archeologist of old." The Burden of proof for a maximalist, an "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". They argue that just because archaeologists haven't found physical proof of an event (like the Exodus) doesn't mean it never happened. Minimalists counter that relying on unproven text is unscientific; they require independent epigraphic or physical proof before accepting any biblical claim.

Perhaps the most clear differentiation of the two camps relates to the Book of Joshua. The maximalists claim it demonstrates the biblical account is accurate but due to time, (which they do not agree about) there is no longer any evidence of the fall of Jericho in the time of Joshua. Minimalists argue this lack of destruction layers completely refutes the Book of Joshua. They believe the stories were invented during the reign of King Josiah to justify territorial expansion. Both agree that during the iron age a large (at the exact same time as the Bronze Age Collapse) number of small settlement appear in the Canaanite hill country. The minimalists say this this is the Children of Israel coming into the land from Egypt. The minimalists note that there are perhaps 800 - 1,000 new settlements on land not previously occupied. Thus, there could be as many as 50,000 people settled there over two centuries not the 2 million described in Exodus. These were small settlements of more more than a few hundred people each. They showed no Egyptian clothing, pottery, language or any of the vast wealth the bible says the Egyptians gave the departing Israelites.

Today, many mainstream biblical archaeologists take a middle-ground position. They note that while the Book of Joshua is a late theological construct preoccupied with religious ideals, the Book of Judges—which describes a much slower, messy, and incomplete coexistence with Canaanites—matches the archaeological record far better


The Books of Kings and the Books of Chronicles offer starkly different evaluations of King David and King Solomon. This divergence stems directly from their different historical contexts, audiences, and theological goals. While Kings provides a realistic, unvarnished historical record of their flaws to explain why Israel fell into exile, Chronicles presents an idealized, "sanitized" portrait of a golden age to inspire a community rebuilding after that exile. Written during the Babylonian exile. It answers "Why are we here?" by showing how royal disobedience led to judgment. The book of Chronicles is written after the return from exile. It answers "Who are we now?" by offering hope and encouraging temple worship. The book of Kings focuses heavily on political intrigue, military battles, and personal sins (such as his adultery with Bathsheba) and murder of suspect military leaders. Chronicles completely omits his sins, family scandals, and civil wars. Portrays him as the grand architect and liturgical founder of the temple. In Kings the evaluation is grounded in political realism. It includes David's moral failures (like the murder of Uriah), the violent rebellion of his son Absalom, and the ruthless deathbed instructions he leaves for Solomon. David is the standard against whom future kings are judged, but his human flaws are on full display. In Chronicles the author actively bypasses David's flaws to present him as a proto-Messianic figure and the grandfather of Israel's worship culture. Even highly controversial events are reframed; for example, the illicit census that brought a plague upon Israel is attributed to the instigation of Satan rather than David's own pride, transforming the narrative into a holy discovery of the future temple site.

As for Solomon, Kings highlights his early wisdom and building projects, but severely condemns his later years for multiplying wives, wealth, and falling into idolatry. The Solomon of Chronicles totally omits his foreign wives, his worship of pagan gods, and the heavy tax burdens he placed on the people. He is portrayed as the perfectly obedient successor.

In Kings Solomon is an Idolater vs. A Pure BuilderKings: Solomon's life is a tragic arc. It builds up to his immense wisdom and wealth, but ends with a scathing evaluation in 1 Kings 11, which details how his foreign wives turned his heart away from God. His failures are explicitly cited as the reason the United Kingdom fractured into North and South. [

In Chronicles Solomon's evaluation is entirely positive. His apostasy, pagan altars, and the resulting domestic rebellions are completely expunged from the record. He and David are presented as a unified, idealized duo who successfully established the "Throne of the Lord" and the house of God.

In Kings Solomon is portrayed almost entirely with the vision, construction, and dedication of the temple. In Chronicles David is credited with the administrative blueprints, collecting materials, and organizing the temple priests and music. Solomon simply executes his father's detailed plan.

If you find any biblical references to the Bronze Age Collapse or the total domination of Assyria over all of Israel in the bible please list your references.

Your excuse that the events of the Bronze Age Collapse was before a united kingdom while accurate is misleading as the entire book of Judges is written about that period with no recognition of it.
 
If you find any biblical references to the Bronze Age Collapse or the total domination of Assyria over all of Israel in the bible please list your references.

Your excuse that the events of the Bronze Age Collapse was before a united kingdom while accurate is misleading as the entire book of Judges is written about that period with no recognition of it.
The argument that the Book of Judges should explicitly mention the systemic, macro-level global events of the Late Bronze Age Collapse misunderstands both the specific literary purpose of the biblical text and the localised reality of Canaan during that transition.

The defense that these events occurred before the United Kingdom is not a misleading "excuse"; rather, it aligns with how ancient tribal societies experienced and recorded history.

1. Literary Intent vs. Modern Historiography
The Book of Judges was not written as a comprehensive, objective geopolitical textbook of the ancient Near East. It is a theological and highly regional narrative. Its primary purpose is to illustrate a recurring spiritual cycle: Israel sins, suffers under a local oppressor, cries out to God, and is rescued by a localized leader (a "judge"). The authors intentionally focused on immediate, proximate threats—like the Moabites, Midianites, and Philistines—rather than the collapse of distant empires like the Hittites, because those regional conflicts directly served the book's theological message.

2. The "Power Vacuum" as Indirect Evidence
While the Book of Judges does not explicitly name the "Bronze Age Collapse," the entire setting of the book is actually a direct consequence of it.
  • The Egyptian Absence: Prior to the collapse, Egypt heavily garrisoned and controlled Canaan.
  • The Anarchy of Judges: The very fact that small, fractured tribes of Israel could battle localized city-states and regional actors without interference from major superpowers (like Egypt or the Hittites) is only possible because those empires had just collapsed.
  • The Verdict: The text does recognise the Bronze Age Collapse, not by naming it, but by existing within the geopolitical power vacuum it left behind.

3. Immediate Survival vs. Global Awareness
From an anthropological perspective, the proto-Israelites of the Iron Age I period were an agrarian, decentralized tribal society. A peasant farmer or a local tribal leader in the hills of Ephraim would not have a "global" view of Mediterranean trade routes collapsing or the fall of Mycenaean Greece. Their history was entirely defined by whether their immediate neighbor stole their crops (Judges 6:3-4). Expecting a tribal anthology to report on international geopolitical shifts applies anachronistic expectations of modern global journalism to ancient oral traditions.

4. Setting the Record Straight on Assyria
Regarding Assyria, the Bible does not ignore the empire; it documents Assyrian domination extensively. However, this occurs in the books of 2 Kings and Isaiah, not Judges. The Neo-Assyrian Empire did not rise to dominate the Levant until the 8th century BCE—centuries after the era of the Judges. Conflating the Bronze Age Collapse with the Assyrian conquest merges two entirely different historical eras separated by nearly 400 years.


 
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The argument that the Book of Judges should explicitly mention the systemic, macro-level global events of the Late Bronze Age Collapse misunderstands both the specific literary purpose of the biblical text and the localised reality of Canaan during that transition.

The defense that these events occurred before the United Kingdom is not a misleading "excuse"; rather, it aligns with how ancient tribal societies experienced and recorded history.

1. Literary Intent vs. Modern Historiography
The Book of Judges was not written as a comprehensive, objective geopolitical textbook of the ancient Near East. It is a theological and highly regional narrative. Its primary purpose is to illustrate a recurring spiritual cycle: Israel sins, suffers under a local oppressor, cries out to God, and is rescued by a localized leader (a "judge"). The authors intentionally focused on immediate, proximate threats—like the Moabites, Midianites, and Philistines—rather than the collapse of distant empires like the Hittites, because those regional conflicts directly served the book's theological message.

2. The "Power Vacuum" as Indirect Evidence
While the Book of Judges does not explicitly name the "Bronze Age Collapse," the entire setting of the book is actually a direct consequence of it.
  • The Egyptian Absence: Prior to the collapse, Egypt heavily garrisoned and controlled Canaan.
  • The Anarchy of Judges: The very fact that small, fractured tribes of Israel could battle localized city-states and regional actors without interference from major superpowers (like Egypt or the Hittites) is only possible because those empires had just collapsed.
  • The Verdict: The text does recognise the Bronze Age Collapse, not by naming it, but by existing within the geopolitical power vacuum it left behind.

3. Immediate Survival vs. Global Awareness
From an anthropological perspective, the proto-Israelites of the Iron Age I period were an agrarian, decentralized tribal society. A peasant farmer or a local tribal leader in the hills of Ephraim would not have a "global" view of Mediterranean trade routes collapsing or the fall of Mycenaean Greece. Their history was entirely defined by whether their immediate neighbor stole their crops (Judges 6:3-4). Expecting a tribal anthology to report on international geopolitical shifts applies anachronistic expectations of modern global journalism to ancient oral traditions.

4. Setting the Record Straight on Assyria
Regarding Assyria, the Bible does not ignore the empire; it documents Assyrian domination extensively. However, this occurs in the books of 2 Kings and Isaiah, not Judges. The Neo-Assyrian Empire did not rise to dominate the Levant until the 8th century BCE—centuries after the era of the Judges. Conflating the Bronze Age Collapse with the Assyrian conquest merges two entirely different historical eras separated by nearly 400 years.
This is great stuff. You’re trying to protect the literary purpose of Judges from anachronistic expectations, and that’s exactly right, but one refinement i would make is the book doesn’t “recognize” the Late Bronze Age Collapse so much as it presupposes the geopolitical vacuum it created.
Judges is not a macro‑historical chronicle; it’s a theological cycle narrative focused on Israel’s covenant failures and local deliverances, so it naturally highlights Moabites, Midianites, Philistines, and Canaanite city‑states rather than the fall of Hatti or Mycenae.
But your argument is strongest where you note that Egypt’s withdrawal from Canaan — a direct result of the collapse — is precisely what made the decentralized, tribal conflicts of Judges possible.
The proto‑Israelites were agrarian hill communities with no horizon beyond immediate survival, so expecting them to narrate international systems‑failure is anachronistic.
And you’re right to separate eras: the Neo‑Assyrian rise belongs to 8th‑century texts like Kings and Isaiah, not Judges. If you refine anything, refine the claim that Judges “recognizes” the collapse; better to say it reflects the collapse’s aftermath by the very world it depicts.👍
 
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What we have is a twofold phenomenon.

Greater works for us in our day will be in the expounding of God's word as understanding progressively keeps increasing over the years. Greater teaching is possible today that was not possible when Jesus walked the earth as far as insight and knowledge in His day.


But when Jesus was sending out his disciples?


Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account
of the works themselves.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and
greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you
ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jn 14:11-13


We need to think about it...

Were there any churches to be found where they were going to go?
None.

Where they were going to?
Was the name of Jesus even known?
No one yet knew.

They were to be going out into the devil's world to invade his domain with an invasion of gospel truth!
It would no longer remain confined to the relatively small area of Israel, like Jesus did.
They were going to do greater things.

Even unheard of things.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do

My question is, were signs and wonders part of Jesus' work? If do then there's no argument for cessationism.
 
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do

My question is, were signs and wonders part of Jesus' work? If do then there's no argument for cessationism.

A sign and wonder is not a work of a person.
It is merely being present when God does a work to verify to others that this person was sent by God.

For example.... Moses did not part the Red Sea.
It was not a work of Moses.

Feeding and caring for the poor is a work.
Studying and teaching is a work.

....
 
The argument that the Book of Judges should explicitly mention the systemic, macro-level global events of the Late Bronze Age Collapse misunderstands both the specific literary purpose of the biblical text and the localised reality of Canaan during that transition.

The defense that these events occurred before the United Kingdom is not a misleading "excuse"; rather, it aligns with how ancient tribal societies experienced and recorded history.

1. Literary Intent vs. Modern Historiography
The Book of Judges was not written as a comprehensive, objective geopolitical textbook of the ancient Near East. It is a theological and highly regional narrative. Its primary purpose is to illustrate a recurring spiritual cycle: Israel sins, suffers under a local oppressor, cries out to God, and is rescued by a localized leader (a "judge"). The authors intentionally focused on immediate, proximate threats—like the Moabites, Midianites, and Philistines—rather than the collapse of distant empires like the Hittites, because those regional conflicts directly served the book's theological message.

2. The "Power Vacuum" as Indirect Evidence
While the Book of Judges does not explicitly name the "Bronze Age Collapse," the entire setting of the book is actually a direct consequence of it.
  • The Egyptian Absence: Prior to the collapse, Egypt heavily garrisoned and controlled Canaan.
  • The Anarchy of Judges: The very fact that small, fractured tribes of Israel could battle localized city-states and regional actors without interference from major superpowers (like Egypt or the Hittites) is only possible because those empires had just collapsed.
  • The Verdict: The text does recognise the Bronze Age Collapse, not by naming it, but by existing within the geopolitical power vacuum it left behind.

3. Immediate Survival vs. Global Awareness
From an anthropological perspective, the proto-Israelites of the Iron Age I period were an agrarian, decentralized tribal society. A peasant farmer or a local tribal leader in the hills of Ephraim would not have a "global" view of Mediterranean trade routes collapsing or the fall of Mycenaean Greece. Their history was entirely defined by whether their immediate neighbor stole their crops (Judges 6:3-4). Expecting a tribal anthology to report on international geopolitical shifts applies anachronistic expectations of modern global journalism to ancient oral traditions.

4. Setting the Record Straight on Assyria
Regarding Assyria, the Bible does not ignore the empire; it documents Assyrian domination extensively. However, this occurs in the books of 2 Kings and Isaiah, not Judges. The Neo-Assyrian Empire did not rise to dominate the Levant until the 8th century BCE—centuries after the era of the Judges. Conflating the Bronze Age Collapse with the Assyrian conquest merges two entirely different historical eras separated by nearly 400 years.


Well thought out apologetics. I find it interesting that you can declare that Judges is "a theological and highly regional narrative. Theology is in the eye of the beholder. One can easily read these hero stories of men and women who acquired fame worth repeating or inventing as foundational to the next 1,250 years of literary heroes which comprise the Hebrew Bible. it is a continuous recounting of heros as the vitality of the Hebrews waxes and wains.

I do not believe you can make a case that those living in Canaan prior to 1,000 BC were "Israelites." My contention is that they were Canaanites. As noted, in this period there is no evidence of literary writing in Hebrew, thus the events in Judges were later recounting of folklore as Canaanite culture evolved into Israeli culture. Israelite culture even retained the pantheon of the Canaanites who's chief God was EL. El in incorporated into the meta narrative of the founding of Israel via the interaction of EL with Abram, Isaac, Jacob and later Moses, where the terminology of El changed to YHWH. In fact they took their national name that means "contends with EL. All this happened before the Canaanite High God EL was much later renamed YHWH. The Egyptians noted that the Canaanites had elevated YHWH from the "Children of God" into the place of the high God EL as they recorded the destruction of a people group that called themselves the people who contend with God aka Israel around 1,200 BC

I contend that based on the texts of Isaiah 1 and Isaiah 2 the events are prior to the Assyrian rule. Isaiah only predicted the future fall of Israel to the Assyrians. There is no conceptualization a vassalage.

What you are not accounting for in the Great Bronze Age Collapse is the displacement of thousands of people many of which moved into the hill country of Canaan. In a brief time over 600 new settlements were established totaling about 50,000 people. Here are the things unrecorded in the Hebrew Bible about the most important event of the ages.

Well thought out apologetics. I find it interesting that you can declare that Judges is "a theological and highly regional narrative. Theology is in the eye of the beholder. One can easily read these hero stories of men and women who acquired fame worth repeating or inventing as foundational to the next 1,250 years of literary heroes which comprise the Hebrew Bible. it is a continuous recounting of heros as the vitality of the Hebrews waxes and wains.

I do not believe you can make a case that those living in Canaan prior to 1,000 BC were "Israelites." My contention is that they were Canaanites. As noted, in this period there is no evidence of literary writing in Hebrew, thus the events in Judges were later recounting of folklore as Canaanite culture evolved into Israeli culture. Israelite culture even retained the pantheon of the Canaanites who's chief God was EL. El in incorporated into the meta narrative of the founding of Israel via the interaction of EL with Abram, Isaac, Jacob and later Moses, where the terminology of El changed to YHWH. In fact they took their national name that means "contends with EL. All this happened before the Canaanite High God EL was much later renamed YHWH. The Egyptians noted that the Canaanites had elevated YHWH from the "Children of God" into the place of the high God EL as they recorded the destruction of a people group that called themselves the people who contend with God aka Israel around 1,200 BC

I contend that based on the texts of Isaiah 1 and Isaiah 2 the events are prior to the Assyrian rule. Isaiah only predicted the future fall of Israel to the Assyrians. There is no conceptualization a vassalage.

What you are not accounting for in the Great Bronze Age Collapse is the displacement of thousands of people many of which moved into the hill country of Canaan. In a brief time over 600 new settlements were established totaling about 50,000 people. Here are the things unrecorded in the Hebrew Bible about the most important event of the ages