IS FAITH IN JESUS REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL SALVATION?

[arthurfleminger]

Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for all, to include those who never heard of Him. If a person never heard of Jesus, like Native American Indians for example, are they doomed to eternal damnation?

And what about the millions of children who died over the last 2,000 years, without reaching the age of reason and therefore not having faith in Jesus. Are they all doomed to an eternity in Hell . That doesn't sound like a Just and Loving God to me. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Bring the children unto Me."?

 

[cinder]

Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for all, to include those who never heard of Him. If a person never heard of Jesus, like Native American Indians for example, are they doomed to eternal damnation?

And what about the millions of children who died over the last 2,000 years, without reaching the age of reason and therefore not having faith in Jesus. Are they all doomed to an eternity in Hell . That doesn't sound like a Just and Loving God to me. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Bring the children unto Me."?

On the off chance that this is sincere and not just someone looking for a fight and to rail at God, and because the root of what will happen to those who didn't have the opportunity to hear when the final judgement comes is a good and reasonable question to ask and there's something wrong if the idea of the majority of the people who ever lived being sentenced to eternal suffering doesn't bother us, I'm going to take a crack at this question.

First it's worth saying that faith in God's justice and mercy would include faith that he will be consistent with those character traits in all situations including the case of those who've never heard.

Scripture seems to be pretty clear on a few points

1) there were people who lived before Jesus who were righteous and who if it's not expressly stated are for sure in heaven, most of us expect to see there. Further evidence of the salvation of those who lived before Christ existed would be that when Christ died, the graves of many of the righteous who had been buried were disturbed and people saw them up and walking around for a brief time ( Matt 27:51-53). If it's not because they were headed to heaven now that Jesus had died, what is the explanation.

2) If there is salvation apart from hearing about and accepting Christ, God hasn't revealed to us how that works. People hearing and believing the good news about Christ is plan A. I think we miss the mark when we think about salvation only as spending eternity in heaven; there's a here and now transformation and improvement living by the good news about Christ brings to individuals and communities as well. God desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth ( 1 Tim 2:4) so he wants everyone to hear about Christ and accept him.

3) No culture is innocent of sin just because they haven't heard about Jesus. Which Native Americans are you thinking of for an example? The Aztecs who sacrificed countless people every year to appease their gods, how many human sacrifices can you do to protect the world before you are excluded from heaven? The Mohawks or other cannibalistic tribes who would eat their enemies? How about all the generations of the cannibalistic Sawi of Irian Jaya (hope I spelled that right) who when missionaries came in the 1960's held treachery as their highest value and ideal and celebrated those who'd committed the most heinous betrayals (and initially thought Judas Iscariot was the hero of the Garden of Gethsemene story)?

4) What is just is for all people to be condemned because of their sin. What is loving is that God saves any of us. ( We don't like it, but the Bible makes that pretty clear)

As I said, if God has a plan B that covers people who haven't heard of Jesus; we haven't been told what it is. I think maybe because if we had a plan B it would lessen our commitment to plan A. But I think the Bible also makes it clear that God has done everything he can to make it as easy as possible for people to be saved, and his character as revealed in scripture makes me think that he's going to do everything he can and use any loophole or "excuse" he can to save as many people as possible.

 

[Amanuensis]

The Native Americans were pretty vile, many lived for the lust of capturing an enemy and watching him scream in agony in a slow and torturous death. They were some of the worst examples of human beings imaginable comparable to the time before the flood.

Why would it be hard to imagine them being lost.

Romans 1 talks about the decline of most humans who are given over to reprobate mind because they choose to reject the revelation of moral constraint and desire to cast it off. That is your average "innocent" native in the jungle. Don't kid yourself.

It also says that their conscience will be used to judge them. It will either excuse them or accuse them. Which one do you think it will do? Accuse them of course. It will remind them of all their sins and none will be innocent. No not one.

So don't worry, every man, woman and child over the age of accountability unless they repented were pulling a cartload of sin behind them that will follow them in judgment.

Those that sought the Mercy of God found it.

God is not unrighteous, but people are a plenty.

 

[Amanuensis]

The big question is not why would Native Americans burn in hell after all the sins they were guilty of. We can explain that one.
The Great Mystery is how could those who repented have their just punishment removed, because someone took their place. That one is harder to explain. It is the Great Amazing Grace that boggles the mind.

Why sinful wicked people who were guilty of heinous acts of evil but never heard the scriptures and never repented will be condemned is not a difficult question. They will be judged by their conscience because a certain level of right and wrong was revealed to them and they sinned against that knowledge so that none will be able to say they did not know. That is an easy answer.

But when we begin to comprehend ("begin" I say because we will never fully comprehend it in this life) the sinfulness of sin, and the just judgment of God and the punishment that sins deserves, then we will be far more occupied with the question "how can people be saved?" and that will be the great mystery that boggles our minds.

How can such heinous acts be forgiven? There is no question that they should be punished, burned, destroyed, beaten with many stripes, eternally tormented forever, all that is very very fair and just when we see sin as it is, but How can one be forgiven as if they had never sinned???

That is the Great and Glorious Mystery. It requires faith because our logic fails us when we try to grasp it.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

The Native Americans were pretty vile, many lived for the lust of capturing an enemy and watching him scream in agony in a slow and torturous death. They were some of the worst examples of human beings imaginable comparable to the time before the flood.

Why would it be hard to imagine them being lost.

Romans 1 talks about the decline of most humans who are given over to reprobate mind because they choose to reject the revelation of moral constraint and desire to cast it off. That is your average "innocent" native in the jungle. Don't kid yourself.

It also says that their conscience will be used to judge them. It will either excuse them or accuse them. Which one do you think it will do? Accuse them of course. It will remind them of all their sins and none will be innocent. No not one.

So don't worry, every man, woman and child over the age of accountability unless they repented were pulling a cartload of sin behind them that will follow them in judgment.

Those that sought the Mercy of God found it.

God is not unrighteous, but people are a plenty.

God stops holding back the sinful nature that are in the nonelects. While God gives the Holy Spirit to the remaining elect. Than the end shall come. The reason why people are in the lake of fire in the future is because they are Satan's children and their name is not written in the Lamb's book of life.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
King James Version

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Amanuensis]

God stops holding back the sinful nature that are in the nonelects. While God gives the Holy Spirit to the remaining elect. Than the end shall come. The reason why people are in the lake of fire in the future is because they are Satan's children and their name is not written in the Lamb's book of life.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
King James Version

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Because they believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

That describes it for sure.

 

[Lynx]

Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for all, to include those who never heard of Him. If a person never heard of Jesus, like Native American Indians for example, are they doomed to eternal damnation?

And what about the millions of children who died over the last 2,000 years, without reaching the age of reason and therefore not having faith in Jesus. Are they all doomed to an eternity in Hell . That doesn't sound like a Just and Loving God to me. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Bring the children unto Me."?

All these questions have been asked before... Like, a LOT! I bet they've been asked on this forum alone more than 7,300 times.

Answers? Well, let's just say there's a reason these questions have been asked a lot. We have fewer answers than we have answers for questions about dinosaurs.

Nota bien: One reason these questions have been asked so often is because they are troll favorites. If someone calls you a troll in this thread, don't be surprised. This is from troll question set #37, frequently used in chatrooms. Not saying YOU are a troll, just saying it's something trolls ask a lot, so don't be all offended if someone thinks you're a troll. Just explain that they are legitimate questions everyone wonders about.

 

[phil36]

Paul gives us the answer to this very question in Romans itself. Here is just a snippet.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18ff.

Please take the time and read Romans 1 and 2. The point Pual is making is that no man or woman is without excuse.. They can't say I didn't know. They did but through their own sinfulness suppressed the truth and worshipped either themselves or some sort of idol.

All those of faith from the beginning of time before christ are also saved by Christs work on the cross and His. Resurrection. They believed in the promises of God. In fact Paul also states this in Romans (and Galatians). Read chapter 4. Old testament faith was also righteousness by faith.

but the righteous person shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4b.

Regarding children (young) I believe that since they have not got the capacity to mentally absent in faith, that is to fully understand faith, their sinfulness etc they will not be held accountable. At what age can a child understand these things 🤔 I Don't know, and each individual is different.

But all that to say.. There be no one who can say I did not know..

That's just the basic overview. No one will be able to charge... I did not know.. They know about God... And if they seek him they will find him.!

 

[Robertt]

interesting discussion in the singles forum. still amazes me but i need to get used to it. That the forums titles are not representative of the topics. maybe just the people.

Oh well

 

[Lynx]

interesting discussion in the singles forum. still amazes me but i need to get used to it. That the forums titles are not representative of the topics. maybe just the people.

Oh well

We discuss a lot of stuff here.

You want us to ONLY discuss how to find a spouse? People also complain when there is too high a concentration of those threads. Either way somebody gonna be complaining.

 

[listenyoumustAll]

Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for all, to include those who never heard of Him. If a person never heard of Jesus, like Native American Indians for example, are they doomed to eternal damnation?

And what about the millions of children who died over the last 2,000 years, without reaching the age of reason and therefore not having faith in Jesus. Are they all doomed to an eternity in Hell . That doesn't sound like a Just and Loving God to me. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Bring the children unto Me."?

My friend ,Yes you got that right ,Jesus died for all the world, John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. I had to read the bible twice to grasp the rightness in its text. You have to understand that man's interaction with God is a " creator and creature". Having that holistic view will guide you greatly .. All of mankind kind is one creation . the devil interruption God's original plan by deceiving the woman Eve . God being holistic in view exists outside of time, note: which also is his creation by God , God chooses to interacts with mankind in intervals of time according to his pertect will to Savage what's left of the creation . My friend ,All through the old testament to the new testaments there is always one new revelation of God's will to manifest. God is out to safe his creation mankind unto life and death. There is a parable in the bible ,please be patient to read .
Matthew 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. This parable here gives a good revelation to the people about God's actions .. The tares are the evil planted by the wicked one and his helpers . .. God has savaged mankind to be given a new body in Christ Jesus my friend .that's why Jesus is a key piece ..a royal piece in all of this

.. The God of Jerusalem is a good God in all ways .. Now what the wicked meant for evil has translated mankind to a better place ,which is being within God. God bless you .

 

[Robertt]

We discuss a lot of stuff here.

You want us to ONLY discuss how to find a spouse? People also complain when there is too high a concentration of those threads. Either way somebody gonna be complaining.

yep it what i want. but i dont control anything lol

seems the way of the world. if both sides complain then lets not make a change is the answer apparently.

 

[Lynx]

yep it what i want. but i dont control anything lol

seems the way of the world. if both sides complain then lets not make a change is the answer apparently.

Yeah, no, life is too short to play a one note song here in the singles forum. Let BDF forum play the same note over and over. Here in the singles forum we are single people with busy lives and we don't have time for anything less than a full symphony.

 

[Lanolin]

I dont think you can blanket an ENTIRE group of people and say they have never heard of Jesus
when clearly many that have ears will hear and have heard and DO have salvation


just as many refuse Him and will go their own way. Also the kind of christianity that was at the time being introdcued to native americans was not easily translated, and one of the fundamental things new believer needs is the Bible translated into their own langauge so they can understand it and get into His Word, rather than say rocking on up to church and not understanding anything that is being said.

But now there are indigenous translations of the Bible so, this will really help with people hearing the gospel and discipleship, in their own tongue rather than a quick 'say the sinners prayer, repeat after me" kind of conversion.

 

[Lanolin]

or in indigenised english which is more of a pidgin, that can work for native speakers as well as english speakers. It would be like translating the Bible into Pinyin so both chinese and english speakers could read it.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/n...on-indigenous-bible-ivp-translation-wild.html

 

[BrotherMike]

God knows the heart and will judge by that. If they have been given an opportunity to know Him, they will be held accountable.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for all, to include those who never heard of Him. If a person never heard of Jesus, like Native American Indians for example, are they doomed to eternal damnation?

These are questions the Bible actually has answers to.

First off, the Bible never actually teaches eternal torment in hell. I know people will argue against this, but the verses to support eternal torment for all unsaved people don’t exist. This misconception comes from false doctrines in the church and people projecting the idea of eternal torment into the scripture. If you aren’t sure, ask me about any verse, but read the verse carefully before you do.

The Bible teaches destruction of unsaved:
John 3:16
Matthew 10:28
James 4:12
Hebrews 10:39
Philippians 3:18,19
Psalm 92:7
Psalm 37:20
2 Peter 3:7
and many more…

And what about the millions of children who died over the last 2,000 years, without reaching the age of reason and therefore not having faith in Jesus. Are they all doomed to an eternity in Hell . That doesn't sound like a Just and Loving God to me. After all, didn't Jesus say, "Bring the children unto Me."?

The Bible doesn’t say anywhere that people who don’t receive the gospel are on a one way ticket to hell. No one will show up to the judgement ignorant and totally blindsided by a judgement to hell without having a fair chance to respond to the gospel. Jesus is quite clear:

John 3:17,18
17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You can’t be condemned if you haven’t had a chance to believe. Condemned means judged. Jesus didn’t come to condemn the world, but rather save the world.