Is it LAWFUL to kill animals?

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#61
If DNA has not changed, how could it deteriorate?
It has not changed, in that God has not recreated us with different DNA, It is still the same DNA that we were given at creation.
BUT the DNA given at creation has deteriorated since sin and we are not as strong as we once were. The DNA that God gave Adam has been past on through the generations to today but we have deteriorated because of sin.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#62
It has not changed, in that God has not recreated us with different DNA, It is still the same DNA that we were given at creation.
BUT the DNA given at creation has deteriorated since sin and we are not as strong as we once were. The DNA that God gave Adam has been past on through the generations to today but we have deteriorated because of sin.
Pretty speculative.
 
T

tstumf

Guest
#63
The way I look at this is…. After the fall our human bodies and all of creation changed death entered the world . Something in our DNA undoubtedly changed since pre-fall humanity and While we can make much progress to being restored spiritually with God in this life we will still suffer physically regardless of how much spiritual progress we make. we no longer live forever, Paul mentions our physical Body as only a temporary tent to our soul in 2Corinthians. I believe Jesus came to give our fallen bodies some grace including our diet we have since the fall…. Knowing things are not how God designed them to be . The lion today wants to eat the lamb instead of laying with the lamb…. Nature as God designed it is still way out of balance beyond what we can effect. A plant based diet will kill a Lion or Dog make them terrible sick just as it does for us humans. Till the day fallen humanity is fully restored into Gods glory we will have a human physical need to eat meaty proteins for proper nourishment . You abstaining from meat to somehow make you “more Holy “ will not matter and in fact there are studies out there showing plant based proteins insufficient for the human body. I think we should worry more about all the high processed foods and preserves in food rather than the meat vs plant arguments. The chemicals they use in some twinkies and yes some plant derived “soy burger “ should give us all pause to pick healthier foods. However


“The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭11:6-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Till this becomes our reality,Gods grace on our meat diet is sufficient
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#64
What about the tests written in the Word, do they prove?

Daniel 1:5 And the king appointed for them a daily provision of the king’s delicacies and of the wine which he drank, and three years of training for them, so that at the end of that time they might serve before the king

8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies, nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

11 So Daniel said to the steward whom the chief of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
12 “Please test your servants for ten days, and let them give us vegetables to eat and water to drink.
13 Then let our appearance be examined before you, and the appearance of the young men who eat the portion of the king’s delicacies; and as you see fit, so deal with your servants.”
14 So he consented with them in this matter, and tested them ten days.

15 And at the end of ten days their features appeared better and fatter in flesh than all the young men who ate the portion of the king’s delicacies.
16 Thus the steward took away their portion of delicacies and the wine that they were to drink, and gave them vegetables.

17 As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

-The results of the test are positive: "better and fatter" within ten days.

You are full talk and no walk, if you say you have compassion with your tongue, but your hand doth kill them.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

You need to put your money where your mouth is.

Are the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate and the KJV 1611 Scripture?

This is one of those things everyone has to decide for themselves, either you believe God delights in the innocent blood of murdered animals, or not. I can only present the verses:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Murder was unlawful since the beginning:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

-The Law cannot change, murder will never be allowed:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Baruch 4:1 This is the book of the commandments of God, and the law that endureth for ever: all they that keep it shall come to life; but such as leave it shall die.


No, that is why He gave the herbs and fruits to Adam, who lived almost a 1000 years:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Jesus ate fish. Is he guilty?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
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#65
Do what you think is best for your health.
Killing animals is not a sin....
Eating meat is not a sin.....
I just know that Adam and Eve were created in Gods image and were vegetarians, The DNA has not changed (it has deteriorated), and because of sin meat was added to the diet.
My personal research points me to a plant based diet, (and many other things) for best health.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient. I agree, if you research the healthiest, longest living groups of people in the world, you will find they eat very little meat and tons of organic vegetables, fruits, grains, and potatoes.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#66
What about the tests written in the Word, do they prove?
Nothing on this matter.

Daniel 1:5 And the king appointed for them a daily provision of the king’s delicacies
There's the key word that undermines your point. The offending fare was not simply meat.

17 As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
There's another statement that undermines your point. Their knowledge and skill were not at all dependent upon their diet.

You are full talk and no walk, if you say you have compassion with your tongue, but your hand doth kill them.
I didn't say I "have compassion with my tongue"; I made a joke. It's unfortunate you didn't get it; you sure could use some levity.

Are the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate and the KJV 1611 Scripture?
Yes. Do you understand the difference between these and Baruch?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,587
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#68
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient. I agree, if you research the healthiest, longest living groups of people in the world, you will find they eat very little meat and tons of organic vegetables, fruits, grains, and potatoes.
I would encourage you to read up on the Inuit peoples. They traditionally eat meat exclusively, and, where their ways are preserved, are among the healthiest on the planet.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
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#69
Personally, I don't like the idea of killing an animal for sport, but for food don't see a problem with it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,100
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#70
Murder was unlawful since the beginning:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
God killed an animal (perhaps more than one) to clothe Adam and Eve...

Say, DanieLL, I owe you an apology for a couple of posts I made to you in error
thinking I was speaking to O-J in that thread that got shut down yesterday...


I will try not to make that mistake again :)
 
Mar 12, 2022
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#71
have a human physical need to eat meaty proteins for proper nourishment
Adam lived almost 1000 years on vegetables with a "fallen nature". There is no such thing as "human physical need" for meat.
studies out there showing plant based proteins insufficient for the human body.
The "study" of the Word is greater:

Daniel 1:12 “Please test your servants for ten days, and let them give us vegetables to eat and water to drink.
15 And at the end of ten days their features appeared better and fatter in flesh than all the young men who ate the portion of the king’s delicacies
16 Thus the steward took away their portion of delicacies and the wine that they were to drink, and gave them vegetables.

Dino246 you undermined, but haven't answered, they were better and fatter within ten days, this test proves it is healthier to eat vegetables. I knew you didn't have compassion on the animals, at least you admit that. And Baruch is a book in the Bible, you know the Book that says Bible on the cover, has Baruch in it. You can't diminish from the Word, it is written there for a reason.
God killed an animal
It is not written that God killed the animals. "He made coats of skins", after death had entered the world, so the animals may have died on their own, and God used their skins. You can't prove God killed them. But I can prove God didn't killed them, because their blood was innocent.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,100
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#72
It is not written that God killed the animals. "He made coats of skins", after death had entered the world, so the animals may have died on their own, and God used their skins. You can't prove God killed them. But I can prove God didn't killed them, because their blood was innocent.
I think it a larger stretch by far to say God used animal skins He had
not killed Himself. And since it is the first prefiguring of Christ shedding
His blood for the remission of sins, it would be unseemly any other way.
Like, Oh, here, I found these dead animals, you can have their skins? Um, no.
 
Mar 12, 2022
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#73
Jesus ate fish. Is he guilty?
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Every one has to decide for themselves, I hope you read the verses I compiled for you, if you did, you understand that shedding innocent blood is an abomination, and no abomination can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,100
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#74
Every one has to decide for themselves, I hope you read the verses I compiled for you, if you did, you understand that shedding innocent blood is an abomination, and no abomination can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
Jesus was innocent.

Do you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ?

It seems you ignored the verses I gave... and all the laws in Leviticus.

The law required the killing of animals.

Genesis 9:3-4
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants,
I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.


Leviticus 11:2-3
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying,
These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth...


Deuteronomy 14:4-6
These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the
roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. Every animal that parts
the hoof and has the hoof cloven in two and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat....


Mark 7:19
Since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Romans 14:1-3
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes
he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise
the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, ...


Romans 14:6b
Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God;
and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
 
T

tstumf

Guest
#75
Adam lived almost 1000 years on vegetables with a "fallen nature". There is no such thing as "human physical need" for meat.
do strict vegetarians live to be that age today? NO. Most by modern medical standards show malnutrition if they were given full bloodwork . Like I said nature is not in balance since the fall. A bear would die if it had a diet of straw like an ox. A modern human cannot live as Adam and Eve in our current state. God changed Something in our genetic makeup and kept changing it as time went on so we would live less years as the world grew more wicked.
Daniel 1:12 “Please test your servants for ten days, and let them give us vegetables to eat and water to drink.
15 And at the end of ten days their features appeared better and fatter in flesh than all the young men who ate the portion of the king’s delicacies
16 Thus the steward took away their portion of delicacies and the wine that they were to drink, and gave them vegetables.
Nowhere does that say the kings delicacies were meat products….. just saying. Don’t you think that it may have been the work of our supernatural God? So a point may be proven. one must remember we have a God who has been known to defy all human logic and understanding when he needs to. Thinking Baal vs God , The Lords army of Chariots of fire Elijah prayed for his servants eyes to be opened . Jesus walked on water and so did Peter for a minute. It was God who sealed the door to the Ark and kept it afloat. By modern standards the ark by itself without God never would have floated much less survived. You cannot expect humans or fallen nature to be able live up to the standard of pre-fall Eden. We cannot sneak our way back into Eden by diet or otherwise. Only by Gods grace through Jesus.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#76
Adam lived almost 1000 years on vegetables with a "fallen nature". There is no such thing as "human physical need" for meat.
There is, however, a human physical need for eight specific amino acids. It is difficult to obtain these in bioavailable form and in balance from plant sources only. Eat meat, get them all, in balance. It's an easy choice.

you undermined, but haven't answered, they were better and fatter within ten days, this test proves it is healthier to eat vegetables.
No, it doesn't. It proved that for Daniel and his companions, eating vegetables was healthier than eating the king's delicacies. It says nothing about eating vegetables generally, and nothing at all about the subject of this thread.

I knew you didn't have compassion on the animals, at least you admit that.
Again, learn how to read.

I did not say that I don't have compassion on the animals. You are a liar for claiming that I said something I didn't say.

And Baruch is a book in the Bible, you know the Book that says Bible on the cover, has Baruch in it. You can't diminish from the Word, it is written there for a reason.
Wow... okay, you are simply ignorant on this.

The Bible has 66 books and letters within it. "Baruch" is not one of them.

Baruch is part of the 'apocryphal' books that the Catholics consider Scripture. Protestants do not, and with good reason. Don't argue the point; just accept it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#77
I think it a larger stretch by far to say God used animal skins He had
not killed Himself. And since it is the first prefiguring of Christ shedding
His blood for the remission of sins, it would be unseemly any other way.
Like, Oh, here, I found these dead animals, you can have their skins? Um, no.
Also, given that He later forbade the Israelites from touching a carcass, it's rather unlikely. :)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#78
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
When it comes to the Bible's record of what Jesus did, one "witness" is enough... for that witness is God Himself. Your premise is simply wrong.
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#79
I personally love meat and cannot be a vegetarian, and believe animals serve as food.

However, I do believe animals suffer when they being processed. My consolation is at least this process is (supposed to be) quick. Another consolation is that the animals do not know what is awaiting them. If people do not want to eat meat because of animal suffering I understand. Certain cultures eat dogs and cats and consider them food, but I never so I can empathize with vegetarians if they say they do want to eat any meat. One doesn't have to eat meat anyway, there are other ways to get protein, etc.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#80
Num 11:4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
Num 11:32 And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
Num 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
 
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