Is it permissible for a Christian to use lethal force to protect himself, others, or his state?

[tourist]

What are we to do when we’ve done all that we can to live peaceably with all men but they refuse to live peaceably with us?

Should we kill them or should we love them?

If they are intent on harming us and those that we love and attempt to do so we kill them if necessary without hesitation.

 

[Mattathias]

Defend ourselves if that restores the peace.

It sounds trite but I’ll ask anyway, Is that what Jesus would do? (It’s not what he did when his enemies refused to live peaceably with him.)

It certainly depends on the situation. Am I or my loved ones in immediate danger?

Let’s say that you and they are in immediate danger. Can you run? Can you hide? Can you lock your doors? Can you call the police? Can you talk your way out of it? Can you make a noise that would scare them away? Can you delay the fiends long enough without using lethal force - possibly sacrificing your life or health - so your loved ones can escape? Can you pray for God’s protection and trust him to provide a means escape? Can you pray for your enemy? Will they not physically harm you if only you give them what they ask for? Are you prepared to be martyred if that’s what it takes to obey Jesus?

Must you kill your enemy?

 

[Mattathias]

If they are intent on harming us and those that we love and attempt to do so we kill them if necessary without hesitation.

Many years ago I watched a movie about the Crusaders, hacking and slashing their way through hordes of Jews and Muslims, to reclaim the Holy Land. I don’t remember the title of the movie but I remember thinking to myself, Killers For Christ - playing on the general themes of lethal violence in the name of God and king, and Christians of yore referring to the Jews as Christ killers - would be a “good” subtitle.

Killers For Christ

It doesn’t sound so good to me anymore.

 

[John146]

It sounds trite but I’ll ask anyway, Is that what Jesus would do? (It’s not what he did when his enemies refused to live peaceably with him.)



Let’s say that you and they are in immediate danger. Can you run? Can you hide? Can you lock your doors? Can you call the police? Can you talk your way out of it? Can you make a noise that would scare them away? Can you delay the fiends long enough without using lethal force - possibly sacrificing your life or health - so your loved ones can escape? Can you pray for God’s protection and trust him to provide a means escape? Can you pray for your enemy? Will they not physically harm you if only you give them what they ask for? Are you prepared to be martyred if that’s what it takes to obey Jesus?

Must you kill your enemy?

When are we asked to do what Jesus would do? His mission was to die for the sins of the world. He had no wife or family.

Yes, do whatever necessary to keep the peace, but sometimes it’s not possible.

When the Lord sent out the disciples, He told them to buy a sword. Why do you think?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 

[Mattathias]

When are we asked to do what Jesus would do?

Is Christ not our example to follow? (I’m sorry. I’m drawing a blank on where this is said in scripture.)

His mission was to die for the sins of the world.

He said in Luke 4:43 that he was sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God.

He had no wife or family.

It’s true that he wasn’t married and that he beget no children. But he had a mother and a father, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles, and cousins. He did say that believers are his brothers and sisters. When viewed from this perspective, he has a very large family.

When the Lord sent out the disciples, He told them to buy a sword. Why do you think?

To fulfill a prophecy in Isaiah 53 about him. Please see my response to tourist on this passage of scripture in post #37.

 

[Mattathias]

There is no provision for those serving in the military today to quit either.

I’m familiar with a case where a man came to faith in Christ after he had been in the military for some time. He became a conscientious objector and was willing to perform tasks which would not require him to harm anyone. That, as you might imagine, wasn’t well received by his commanding officers and his fellow soldiers. To make a long story short, he persevered and was finally granted a discharge.

If Jesus is a pacifist then He would not be coming back to earth ready to do battle with the forces of evil.

Did Jesus join the military? No. Did he instruct his followers to join the military? No. Did Jesus kill anyone? No. We’ve already seen what happened when he was arrested.

Does scripture tell us that he will kill when he returns? Yes.

I’m a pacifist but I will kill when Jesus returns, if he commands it.

Until He returns the military and police must do the battle against the forces of evil that wish to do harm to ourselves, our family, and the country that they protect.

The governments of the world are called God’s ministers in scripture. They bear the sword, with God’s approval, to keep order. I question that Christians should be involved in that activity. Christians from one country killing Christians from another country doesn’t sound to me like something Christ wants his brothers and sisters to do to one another, nor to those who are not his brothers and sisters.

Don't worry about being persecuted in the United States as the members of the armed forces are volunteers who have answered the call. This country no longer has a military draft so you would never be compelled to join.

I remember going to register for the draft when I was 18. (I wasn’t a conscientious objector at that time in my life.) The draft had just ended but I wasn’t aware of it. The Navy recruiter I spoke with informed me of the fact. I went to college, not to the Navy. My brother-in-law is a West Point graduate. (Go Navy! Beat Army!)

I’m not concerned for myself about the draft ever becoming reinstated. I’m too old for it, and I‘m a conscientious objector. If it were reinstated, my concern would be for young Christian men and women.

Jesus would certainly not demand that the police be defunded. That stance is ludicrous.

I think you’re right about that.

 

[surfer14]

OK, so this is an issue I seriously struggle with.

Some think that our country could be involved in a civil war in the near future due to leftist groups like Black Lives Matter.

I own a firearm and carry one regularly in a pocket holster. I am not personally concerned with my safety, but in the current environment, I could be present when someone else's life, especially a police officer, is in danger and I might be able to help.

So, the question is, from a biblical standpoint, do you think it is acceptable to use lethal force to protect yourself or others?

I think the answer to the question is "yes, it is permissible". I fail to see how Jesus is glorified by a father allowing his wife and daughter to be raped and killed, while he is carefully obeying the scripture to not resist and evil person. But I also think you should stop carrying a gun until you get this figured out for yourself. Any weapon you carry without the willingness to use is more of a liability than an asset.

Also, never forget there's a whole class of people out there that looooove to find passages that they can repeat for the purpose of making themselves look really, really holy and spiritual. They're just modern day pharisee's who load you up with a burden that they themselves don't want to bear. They don't want the responsibility, and when someone else is willing to take on that responsibility, it makes them feel inadequate. So they come up with a bunch of holy sounding reasons why you should be like them. Don't be taken in. No one is that holy.

 

[Mattathias]

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

The official slogans of the English Socialist Party of Oceania (INGSOC), inscribed in large letters on the white pyramid building housing the Ministry of Truth. (George Orwell, 1984)

doublethink - a mind control program of the Party; describes the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.

WAR IS PEACE

Thinking about this slogan brings to mind a beautiful line from the hymn, God of Grace and God of Glory.

”Cure your children’s warring madness;”

May it happen in our day.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I think the answer to the question is "yes, it is permissible". I fail to see how Jesus is glorified by a father allowing his wife and daughter to be raped and killed, while he is carefully obeying the scripture to not resist and evil person. But I also think you should stop carrying a gun until you get this figured out for yourself. Any weapon you carry without the willingness to use is more of a liability than an asset.

Also, never forget there's a whole class of people out there that looooove to find passages that they can repeat for the purpose of making themselves look really, really holy and spiritual. They're just modern day pharisee's who load you up with a burden that they themselves don't want to bear. They don't want the responsibility, and when someone else is willing to take on that responsibility, it makes them feel inadequate. So they come up with a bunch of holy sounding reasons why you should be like them. Don't be taken in. No one is that holy.

I am convinced now that using deadly force to protect self, family or state is righteous. One of my major holdups was the verse that says something like "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword". My pastor mentioned that "living by the sword" is likely a reference to a lifestyle of violence and not defending self, family and state from lawless invaders or opponents.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

So was the first church sinning ?
From my understanding they didnt fight back only hid

They were under persecution by the government of the Roman empire, fighting back would have gotten them decimated. That is different than protecting the weak from rogues, and thugs. Wisdom matters.

 

[Mattathias]

While I was at the gym today, I heard a song played that was in the top one hundred on the charts, this week in 1968. “Sky Pilot,” by The Animals.

“He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and the bayonets they shine
He’s there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted he’s a good holy man

Sky pilot.....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

He smiles at the young soldiers
Tells them it’s all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there’ll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry

Sky pilot....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

He mumbles a prayer and it ends with a smile
The order is given
They move down the line
But he’s still behind and he’ll meditate
But it won’t stop the bleeding or ease the hate

As the young men move out into the battle zone
He feels good, with God you’re never alone
He feels so tired and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage in the words that he said

Sky pilot....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

You’re soldiers of God you must understand
The fate of your country is in your young hands
May God give you strength do your job real well
If it all was worth it only time will tell

In the morning they return with tears in their eyes
The stench of death drifts up to the skies
A young soldier looks at the sky pilot
Remembers the words
Thou shalt not kill

Sky pilot...Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky”

 

[crossnote]

A matter of conscience.
Outside that, no comment.

 

[Mattathias]

A matter of conscience.

On the one hand, it must be so.

But on the other hand, right and wrong isn’t determined by conscience.

A person can have a clear conscience and still be on the road to destruction.

 

[crossnote]

On the one hand, it must be so.

But on the other hand, right and wrong isn’t determined by conscience.

A person can have a clear conscience and still be on the road to destruction.

A matter of conscience.
Outside that, no comment.

At least my conscience isn't formulated by songs from the Animals, but rather God's Word.

 

[notuptome]

Pray everyday for Gods grace to have the strength to act to protect myself, my family and others with deadly force if necessary. Pray everyday that by Gods grace it will never be necessary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

OK, so this is an issue I seriously struggle with.

Some think that our country could be involved in a civil war in the near future due to leftist groups like Black Lives Matter.

I own a firearm and carry one regularly in a pocket holster. I am not personally concerned with my safety, but in the current environment, I could be present when someone else's life, especially a police officer, is in danger and I might be able to help.

So, the question is, from a biblical standpoint, do you think it is acceptable to use lethal force to protect yourself or others?

I see no New Testament permission to do this, however, in Hebrews 11, these verses indicates that it could be the action of a faithful person:

Hebrews 11:32-34 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

Additionally, I fully support the right of the government to inflict punishment upon the wicked in society (Rom 13).

Several sound teachers have said that it is permissible to use lethal force in protection of self and family if innocent lives would be spared by taking the life of the person. However, it is not permissible to kill someone in order to avoid martyrdom.

Any thoughts?

I don't really know which one I would choose, but my guess is that if it came down to a matter of saving innocent lives, I would shoot an aggressor. I mean, I am carrying a gun regularly already. However, I don't think it would be an easy decision to make.

Chances are this decision would not come about for me, because I don't really care to be traveling in larger, leftist-leaning states.

I would suggest be harmless of a dove but as wise a a serpent. Doves do not start but as a serpent no one steps on the head without it striking the opponent.

We turn our carnal weapons in plowshares Not target practice for the lost.

 

[Mattathias]

While I was at the gym today, I heard a song played that was in the top one hundred on the charts, this week in 1968. “Sky Pilot,” by The Animals.

“He blesses the boys as they stand in line
The smell of gun grease and the bayonets they shine
He’s there to help them all that he can
To make them feel wanted he’s a good holy man

Sky pilot.....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

He smiles at the young soldiers
Tells them it’s all right
He knows of their fear in the forthcoming fight
Soon there’ll be blood and many will die
Mothers and fathers back home they will cry

Sky pilot....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

He mumbles a prayer and it ends with a smile
The order is given
They move down the line
But he’s still behind and he’ll meditate
But it won’t stop the bleeding or ease the hate

As the young men move out into the battle zone
He feels good, with God you’re never alone
He feels so tired and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage in the words that he said

Sky pilot....Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky

You’re soldiers of God you must understand
The fate of your country is in your young hands
May God give you strength do your job real well
If it all was worth it only time it will tell

In the morning they return with tears in their eyes
The stench of death drifts up to the skies
A young soldier so ill looks at the sky pilot
Remembers the words
Thou shalt not kill

Sky pilot...Sky pilot
How high can you fly
You’ll never, never, never reach the sky”

I like that this anti-war song goes after the clergy, not the soldiers.

 

[Mattathias]

Pray everyday for Gods grace to have the strength to act to protect myself, my family and others with deadly force if necessary. Pray everyday that by Gods grace it will never be necessary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I’ve read your comment several times, and it keeps coming to mind as I go about my morning activities.

I often say that I’m thankful when someone causes me to think deeply about something. Whether I agree with them or not, they have done me a good service. For various reasons, I don’t always get around to thanking those folks. I’m thanking you now.

As I ruminated on what you said, something Jesus said came to mind. FWIW, I’d like to share it with you.

”For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it.”

(Matthew 16:25)

Among other things, I connect this with Jesus’ admonition to his disciples to love our enemies.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I certainly would hate to have to, but if needs be

 

[Mattathias]

I am convinced now that using deadly force to protect self, family or state is righteous. One of my major holdups was the verse that says something like "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword". My pastor mentioned that "living by the sword" is likely a reference to a lifestyle of violence and not defending self, family and state from lawless invaders or opponents.

Would your pastor kill his enemies?