Is Jesus a creature??
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M
Meridoc
Guest
Firstly I want to say that this is one of the most debated scriptures, though this is what the scripture says to me. First note that it doesn't say he is the "firstborn creature", but "firstborn of every creature", two very different statements. Think about that firstborn of EVERY creature, at first glance it seems to be saying he is not just man but every creature. . .since its kinda physically impossible to be all creatures at the same time, we need to look at the context to gain an understanding of what Paul is talking about. If you look a couple of verses later you see "firstborn from the dead" I don't see this as a coincidence, as the bible rarely contains coincidences. The concept of firstborn when it comes to Jesus makes alot of sense cause the bible also says through the psalmist in a Messianic prophecy "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." and being that Jesus was "born" through God via Mary he would be the firstborn of God. Then when he was resurrected he became the first born from the dead and all true christians are children of God, but not God's firstborn.
Then there is verse 16, which says all things were created by him, ALL things in heaven and on earth, if he was created then unless he created himself this statement would be a lie. Again I don't claim to know everything but in the context of the passage that is what it is saying to me.
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
H
HeWhoOvercomes
Guest
Of course He's not...
I guess the word "firstborn" of "... the firstborn over all creation (Colossian 1:15)" is bothering you. Am I right?
I don't know Greek, the original language of the New Testament, so I can't explain it well. But our pastor told us that it doesn't just mean in Greek Jesus was born like other creatures. Well, in NLT version, it says " He existed before God made anything at all ..." And Jesus is not only equal to God (Philippians 2:6), he is God(John 10:30, 38, John 1:1~3, etc). Actually, when we read the Bible, we need to see an event or a word in the whole picuture; all of God's words are interrelated. And we need to understand its background as well.
I think my reply is not enough. But I hope some others can give you more explanations about this soon.
I guess the word "firstborn" of "... the firstborn over all creation (Colossian 1:15)" is bothering you. Am I right?
I don't know Greek, the original language of the New Testament, so I can't explain it well. But our pastor told us that it doesn't just mean in Greek Jesus was born like other creatures. Well, in NLT version, it says " He existed before God made anything at all ..." And Jesus is not only equal to God (Philippians 2:6), he is God(John 10:30, 38, John 1:1~3, etc). Actually, when we read the Bible, we need to see an event or a word in the whole picuture; all of God's words are interrelated. And we need to understand its background as well.
I think my reply is not enough. But I hope some others can give you more explanations about this soon.
It would depend on how you define "creature," I would think. Jesus is God in flesh, I believe.
that is not an answer,it is not about what i believe or what anyone believe; it is about what does the scripture say. Is he the first born of every creature?
A
AnandaHya
Guest
Colossians 1:15 (New King James Version)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15 (Amplified Bible)
15[Now] He is the [a]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
"Firstborn (the ancient Greek word prototokos) can describe either priority in time, or supremacy in rank. As Paul uses it here, it probably has both ideas in mind, with Jesus being before all created things, and Jesus being of a supremely different order than all created things. In no way does the title firstborn indicate that Jesus is less than God. In fact, the ancient Rabbis called Yawhew Himself “Firstborn of the World” (Rabbi Bechai, cited in Lightfoot)."
Before creation Christ was! HE is SUPREME above all of creation!
Do you believe He is your savior? Isn't that the Gospel we should speak about? Worship the Creator not the creation. Worship our Lord and Savior!
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15 (Amplified Bible)
15[Now] He is the [a]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
"Firstborn (the ancient Greek word prototokos) can describe either priority in time, or supremacy in rank. As Paul uses it here, it probably has both ideas in mind, with Jesus being before all created things, and Jesus being of a supremely different order than all created things. In no way does the title firstborn indicate that Jesus is less than God. In fact, the ancient Rabbis called Yawhew Himself “Firstborn of the World” (Rabbi Bechai, cited in Lightfoot)."
Before creation Christ was! HE is SUPREME above all of creation!
Do you believe He is your savior? Isn't that the Gospel we should speak about? Worship the Creator not the creation. Worship our Lord and Savior!
So, to you he is not, ok so, what shall we do with that scripture; shall we just ignore it, or shall we tear out that page. Or shall we call Paul a teacher of great error? we can not do that so, JUST IGNORE IS THE BEST WAY, we dont realy need to know those things.
Just believe in the lord; Nothing wrong with that, just ignore any scripture that you can not understand. What does it leave you with? With a doctrine: That has more holes than swiss cheese.
''wakeup''.
15[Now] He is the [o]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation. 16For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.
17And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).(A)
18He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].
19For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him [p]permanently.
17And He Himself existed before all things
17And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).(A)
18He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].
19For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him [p]permanently.
17And He Himself existed before all things
M
Meridoc
Guest
Sometimes yes
, the amplified bible can be a very useful tool as instead of a choosing a single english word for whatever Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic word that was used, they take the time to give a fuller definition as words in greek and hebrew especially mean more than just the one word chosen.And in regards to the answer your looking for, the passage tells us that Jesus is not a creature, in the context of the bible we see the fuller picture that Jesus is firstborn because he was born in the likeness of man through Mary, Firstborn of all creatures(not the firstborn creature). The Greek word used that is in this case translated "creature" by the KJV, means more than just that, it means the act of original formation which goes with the next verse that says that Jesus was involved in the original formation of EVERYTHING.
Jesus is not a created being, he is perfect, and because he is perfect he was able to die for our sins which is the core, the only truth that can save us.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
thought you might actually listen to Bible scholars, what do you think GOD says of the subject?
I've given you BIBLE verses and definitions for the translated words, but in the end it is up to you and others who read to accept or reject the message in the words clearly written or to twist it into their own version of "reality"
do you think Jesus is a "creature"?
Its probably a good idea to have all the different versions of all the bible handy when debating, then you should always be able to find a translation that fits more in with your point of view in the debate you are having
That makes it harder for the person you are debating with to say you cannot back up what you believe scripturally
That makes it harder for the person you are debating with to say you cannot back up what you believe scripturally
here's a handy translation for the "jesus is a creature" crowd put together by The Watchtower Society (FREEMASONS):
John 1:1, "The word was a god"
~
" I am very glad to have this particular opportunity of saying a word about some of the things in which we agree with our Masonic friends, because we are speaking in a building dedicated to Masonry, and we also are Masons. I am a Freemason." Charles Taze Russell.
see this symbol in the corner?
~
The picture on the left is the cover of the recent book (1999) by Tim LaHaye called The Power of the Cross. The one on the right is a centuries old Masonic symbol and can be seen on an official site of the Knights Templar at http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/kt.htm
John 1:1, "The word was a god"
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. The New World Translation
This is one of the most common verses of contention between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians. Their false assumption is that Jesus is not God in flesh, but Michael the archangel who became a man. Therefore, since they deny that Jesus is divine, they have altered the Bible in John 1:1 so that Jesus is not divine in nature. The New World Translation has added the word "a" to the verse so it says, "...and the Word was a god." The correct translation for this verse is "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." This is how it is rendered in the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, etc.
~
" I am very glad to have this particular opportunity of saying a word about some of the things in which we agree with our Masonic friends, because we are speaking in a building dedicated to Masonry, and we also are Masons. I am a Freemason." Charles Taze Russell.
see this symbol in the corner?
~
The picture on the left is the cover of the recent book (1999) by Tim LaHaye called The Power of the Cross. The one on the right is a centuries old Masonic symbol and can be seen on an official site of the Knights Templar at http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/kt.htm
Luke 10:22 All thigs are delivered to me of my father; AND NO MAN KNOWETH WHO THE SON IS , BUT THE FATHER; AND WHO THE FATHER IS, BUT THE SON
and to whom the son will reveal him.
''wakeup''.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
If your cup of knowledge is full how can even God add to it?
perhaps pouring some out and waiting for God's answer might be a good idea?
Sorry to deviate slightly, but a Church of England minister wrote on another website
Anyone who thinks they have an understanding of the Trinity and the workings of it shows they nothing of the subject
I liked that quote
Anyone who thinks they have an understanding of the Trinity and the workings of it shows they nothing of the subject
I liked that quote
Does that same notion carry over to God's salvation through Christ, His plan of redemption, the putting away of all sin through the shedding of His blood, who eternal life and redemption comes from, how we receive grace through humility, how we are to worship God in spirit and truth, or concerning the gifts of the Spirit given to the church?
This man unfortunately does not know that we have been given the mind of Christ and we are to let this mind be in us as it was in Christ Jesus (Phil 2:5), that we are new creatures created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24), that we have over 7,800 promises from God that are all yea and amen (2Cor 1:20), that we can have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1Jn 1:3), that we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that guides us into all truth (Jn 16:13) and that God has begun a work in our lives and will perform it until the day of redemption (Phil 1:6).
Doesn't this man know that we are to be prepared to give answer to anyone who asks us of the hope that we have within, and that would include the Godhead (1Pt 3:15). To not have an understanding of the workings of the Godhead is to be ignorant, unprepared and not knowing the will of God (Rom 12:2, Eph 6:6). It would mean that we are not students of God's word and have no hunger for it or to be approved by it (2Tim 2:15).
How does this man treat these verses of inspired scripture within their context?
Do you have humilty in your heart?
'We must always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks and that would include the Godhead'
Are you serious with the above?
Do you actually believe that anyone who has noted your failure to answer practically all of the questions put to you on this subject will be impressed with what you are writing here?
This is an awful post for it says much of the heart that wrote it