Is Jesus a creature??
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Now that has made me laugh
Thanks PPS
Maybe that is why some Trins are so arrogant and won't accept the Biblical requirement for salvation
No.
You will not endure sound doctrine from a basic understanding of Greek versus your casual-English-only preference that leads to many misperceptions.
He couldn't be sequentially firstborn as you understand it and not pre-exist the Incarnation.
But nothing will deter you from what you believe, so there's no use providing more information for you to be able to seek the truth by the Spirit.
Who really cares whether I or anyone else answers your questions but you? You are so self absorbed with having your questions answered that no one really cares what you think and those that respond to you are either doing it out of love or empathy because of your unbelief, and others are just waiting to be able to mock because they also live in unbelief.
Well I have given up expecting you to answer any of my questions, that would be a forlorn hope
You see when you debate Red, it is customary to answer each others questions. Something I know you seem to find difficult to do.
As for my unbelief. Well according to the men you blindly follow, yes it is unbelief, but according to scripture and Christ it is not
No wonder you have to settle for so little
...including "unbelieving" non-Trinitarians that DO absolutely affirm the Deity of Christ... leaving the sole criteria for salvific eternal life as belief in a Trinity doctrine that is nowhere in Scripture.
You may as well be RCC.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life
If anyone acknowledges Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1 John 4:15
I know this simply relates to how we must see Christ
Preaching the gospel to them that are lost is a beautiful thing because it involves the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father draws them to the Son, the Son shed His blood and paid for all their sins through death and the precious Holy Spirit convicts their heart that they might believe. It takes the Trinity to save the sinner, every sinner and it has always been that way, which even includes those that don't like to adhere to that doctrine. Go figure, the goodness of God.
I find it quite amazing that to some we have as the basis for our salvation reqirements that are not laid down in scripture for us to believe
Hence the doctrine of man is put before the truth of the Bible
And there you have it. Trinity doctrine declared as the minimum threshhold for salvific faith unto eternal life.
(If that's NOT what you're saying, please indicate what IS the minimum threshhold for salvific faith unto eternal life. Perhaps recite a creed or maybe a Latin orthodox chant and a few rituals and/or gestures.)
hi PPS, brother.
this question is for you only
what is the mininum threshold for salvific faith, (and by what means is that faith received - where does it come from and exactly what is it)?
maybe we could do it using a hypothetical conversation (i know you are a minister):
let's say i am 7 years old (i'll be Billy), and i say something like:
"my friend Bobby's grandpa died, but he isn't even sad! he said his grandpa will be in Heaven with Jesus....what does Bobby mean?"
I'm Billy I m 7 years old
I say something like
My friend Bobbys Grandpa died but he isn't even sad, he said his Grandpa will be in Heaven with Jesus.......what does Bobby mean?
Well I guess we must asume that Bobby is also 7 and is saved if he believes his Grandpa is in Heaven
So 7 year old Bobby had a chat with his dad say about becoming a Christian
Bobby) Dad, my sunday school teacher was telling me that God sent his son Jesus to die for my sins and all I have to do is ask him into my life and I will be a Christian. Is that right dad? Can I ask Jesus, God's son into my life now please?
Bobbys dad) Well, there's more to it than that son, Jesus is actually God Himself and we have to believe that to become a Christian
Bobby) I don't understand dad, my Sunday school teacher told me Jesus was God's son, not God Himself
Bobbys dad) Well you see son, you have to realise that as Jesus has the nature of his Father and is the express image of his being and he said in John's Gospel-it's OK son, we'll start reading in the OT and I can explain the scriptures to you
Bobby) But I am confused now dad. My sunday school teacher told me Jesus was God's son, why are you telling me he is God (Dad sighs)
Bobbys dads) Well yes Jesus is God's son, but he is also God
Bobby) How come dad, I don't get it you are confusing me
Bobbys dad) But you see Bobby Jesus is part of the Trinity three people in one We have God his Father, Jesus who is also God, but also the son of God , and the Holy Spirit who is also God. God is three persons you see, not one
Bobby) No I don't understand dad, I only know I was told that Jesus was God's son(Dad sighs deeply)
Bobbys dad) But you have to believe Jesus is God himself Bobby, you cannot just believe he is God's son.
Bobby) But my sunday school teacher never told me Jesus was God dad
Bobbys dad) Well he should have explained all this to you Bobby
Jesus was set above the angels, his Father commanded us to worship him, you see God says only He must be worshipped. And then Jesus did refer to himself as the I Am in John's Gospel(Bobby is getting frustrated)
Bobby) What has I am got to do with Jesus being God's son and God Himself dad. When was Jesus set above the angels , my sunday school teacher told me it was simple to become a Christian, I don't understand now
Only one question
How in the world did Bobby become a Christian?
For any rule that applies to adults must apply to children
I say something like
My friend Bobbys Grandpa died but he isn't even sad, he said his Grandpa will be in Heaven with Jesus.......what does Bobby mean?
Well I guess we must asume that Bobby is also 7 and is saved if he believes his Grandpa is in Heaven
So 7 year old Bobby had a chat with his dad say about becoming a Christian
Bobby) Dad, my sunday school teacher was telling me that God sent his son Jesus to die for my sins and all I have to do is ask him into my life and I will be a Christian. Is that right dad? Can I ask Jesus, God's son into my life now please?
Bobbys dad) Well, there's more to it than that son, Jesus is actually God Himself and we have to believe that to become a Christian
Bobby) I don't understand dad, my Sunday school teacher told me Jesus was God's son, not God Himself
Bobbys dad) Well you see son, you have to realise that as Jesus has the nature of his Father and is the express image of his being and he said in John's Gospel-it's OK son, we'll start reading in the OT and I can explain the scriptures to you
Bobby) But I am confused now dad. My sunday school teacher told me Jesus was God's son, why are you telling me he is God (Dad sighs)
Bobbys dads) Well yes Jesus is God's son, but he is also God
Bobby) How come dad, I don't get it you are confusing me
Bobbys dad) But you see Bobby Jesus is part of the Trinity three people in one We have God his Father, Jesus who is also God, but also the son of God , and the Holy Spirit who is also God. God is three persons you see, not one
Bobby) No I don't understand dad, I only know I was told that Jesus was God's son(Dad sighs deeply)
Bobbys dad) But you have to believe Jesus is God himself Bobby, you cannot just believe he is God's son.
Bobby) But my sunday school teacher never told me Jesus was God dad
Bobbys dad) Well he should have explained all this to you Bobby
Jesus was set above the angels, his Father commanded us to worship him, you see God says only He must be worshipped. And then Jesus did refer to himself as the I Am in John's Gospel(Bobby is getting frustrated)
Bobby) What has I am got to do with Jesus being God's son and God Himself dad. When was Jesus set above the angels , my sunday school teacher told me it was simple to become a Christian, I don't understand now
Only one question
How in the world did Bobby become a Christian?
For any rule that applies to adults must apply to children
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hi PPS, brother.
this question is for you only
what is the "mininum threshold for salvific faith", (and by what means is that faith received - where does it come from and exactly what is it)?
maybe we could do it using a hypothetical conversation (i know you are a minister):
let's say i am 7 years old (i'll be Billy), and i say something like:
"my friend Bobby's grandpa died, but he isn't even sad! he said his grandpa will be in Heaven with Jesus....what does Bobby mean?"
...BUMP.....
Can you than explain what Jesus is talking about in that verse, i have posted?luke10:22
Cant anyone post scripture any more without being seen as an heretic?
I
Izdaari
Guest
No, Jesus isn't a creature. He was never created, but as one of the three divine Persons of the Trinity, He has always existed. However, He was born on earth as a human, and so has briefly (for one human lifespan) been a creature... or partially one, since He was both God and man at the same time.
In bringing many sons to glory it is fitting that God for whom and through all things exist should MAKE THE AUTHOR OF THEIR SALVATION PERFECT THROUGH SUFFERING
Heb 2:10
So God Himself had to be made perfect through suffering
Although he was a son HE LEARNED OEDIANCE from what he suffered and once MADE PERFECT he bewcame the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
So God Himself had to learn obediance
Heb 5:9
But the oath which came aftyer the law, appointed the son who has BEEN MADE PERFECT FOREVER
Heb 7:28
So God Himself was MADE perfect forever
But that is just taking verses out of context isn't.
Praise be to THE GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ
Eph 1:3
So God himself has a God that is 'his God'
And God Himself constantly refers to someone as 'My God'
But I know, that is just taking verses out of context again
Then the Lord said to Moses
Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, I will give it to your descendants
I will SEND AN ANGEL BEFORE YOU and drive out the Cananites, Amorites, Hittites, Perrizites, Hivites and Jebusites
Go up to the land flowing with milk and Honey. BUT I WILL NOT GO WITH YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE A STIFF NECKED PEOPLE and I might destroy you on the way
Ex 33:1-3
So, God himself did not travel in the wilderness with the Israelites and bring them to the promised land.
But I am told that it indeed was God Himself who trave,lled with the Israelites in the dessert and supposedly given scripture to back this up, and that the angel was God Himself
So who accompanied the Israelites in the deessert?
The all ate the same spiritual food, and drank from the same spiritual rock that accompanied them, AND THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST
1 Cor 10:4
But God said he did not go with them, but I know, I am just taking verses out of context and not understanding from the context of the whole chapter.
The theme of the Bible is that the Father is greater than all and the one true God. But it is people who do not believe this that grab verses and take them out of context to fit what man has taught them
So God Himself is an angel? Would the JWS go that far?
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