Is Knowledge of the Original Languages Necessary for KJV Believers?

[Bible_Highlighter]

What? How is that Arianism?

NASB 95... John 1:18 says this.

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, ​

He has explained Him.​

What you are not aware of is that the Greek that was translated "explained Him."
I learned the following from another pastor who taught from the original languages.
" explained Him" Is the same Greek word commanded of pastors to exegete the Word of God to their congregation.

In other words?
Jesus takes God who we can not naturally perceive.

And?
He exegetes God to us in "human speak" via His humanity which is working together with His Deity.

Arianism? How?

See, the problem I have with being taught by a Pastor or teacher today as your main source of learning is that they do not teach you how to fish. Meaning, many of them are not teaching you how to be a good Berean but they are just feeding what they think the Hebrew and Greek says rather than teaching you how to look at the meaning of original language words through the classic older lexicons, early church writers, look at the context, and more.

Mostly it is about programming and or brainwashing you to believe what they believe rather than you looking to what words actually mean in history involving the Bible. Many do not get you to do an unbiased investigation of the history of the two popular Bibles lines and how they differ on a doctrinal level. They are not teaching you those verses on the purity and preservation of God's words and so you don't believe such verses. You believe the creed of the church or the mantra of modern scholars that only the originals are perfect.

In many ways, what we have in churches today is the Pastor is spoon feeding people what he wants them to believe. Sometimes he may get some things right and other times it is wrong and heretical. Many Christians are simply unable to research words and look things up. But now with AI, we are without excuse because we can get the links and verify the truth and find out information faster than ever.

I mean, you can right now, ask AI why denying the blood atonement is unbiblical and wrong within seconds it will give you the verses and reasons. Right now, you can ask those respected Christians who held to the blood atonement in history. No more do you have to be spoon fed by a man without verifying the truth of God's word for yourself and without looking to history.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

I was surprised to find about that dirt bag, the mass murder not the little pickle.
I couldn't find any response from Pastor Knapp, could you?

I imagine some of the sources may have been taken down.
Knapp did say that George Sodini was saved after the incident happened.

I don't agree with that kind of teaching. I think it is monstrous and evil to say that a man who murders others is saved just because he believed in Jesus for salvation. Could he repent (seek forgiveness of his sins with Jesus) later if he lived? Sure. But that didn't happen.

1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
George Sodini was a murderer right before he took his own life by self murder.

Like Nick Sayers, I believe the Bible teaches Conditional Salvation.



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[Bible_Highlighter]

I can agree with all of these statements:
God preserved His Word.
Every word matters.
Christians should care about textual accuracy.

The Hebrew and Greek text should not be treated casually.
What I'm still examining is whether those truths necessarily lead to the conclusion that the Ben Chayyim Masoretic Text and Beza 1598 TR are the uniquely preserved forms of Scripture.

I do appreciate your concern about confusion.
I've been in churches where the pastor jumped between multiple translations and the congregation struggled to follow along.
There is certainly value in having a stable text that people can read, memorize, and study together.

I guess my question remains the same: does the doctrine of preservation itself identify the TR/KJV, or does that conclusion require additional historical and textual arguments?

That's not me dismissing your view.
It's simply the point where I'm still weighing the evidence.
We agree that God preserved His words.
We're still discussing how that preservation is best recognized.

To help with your investigation, I think it may be best you wait to see my writeup when it is finished so you can see the whole case that I am making for the KJV. Granted, I have changed in my position while creating this writeup.

I used to approach the Bible more from an English perspective (although I occasionally looked up original language words at times).
My older position was Core KJV (Which meant that I did look to other outside sources to understand the KJV). As I may have said to you before, now, my position is best described as,

KJV + Its Underlying Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.​

My goal and focus now is not just the KJV but the original languages, too.
It's the chocolate and the peanut butter.

Anyway, the current title of my writeup that I am working on still is named, "177 Reasons for the King James Bible," but that number may grow higher (even if I personally do not want it to go higher). It has been a work in progress for 3-5 years. My goal was to only give the best reasons for the King James Bible. Not all reasons made the list and I had to remove points or reasons several times when I found that they were weak under further scrutiny.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

That was years after I left the church. I never met either of those guys. I remember a midget who was on staff who was violent and had an arrogant attitude. The pastor used to brag on him.
The guy sucker punched me out of the blue while I was sitting reading my Bible and waiting for the pastor to get there. Did Not see it coming.
Bop!
You can't win no matter what you do.
If you defend yourself and hit him back, it's like You hit a midget!
I just realized it was one of those if he strikes you on the left, offer the right moments.

I was surprised to find about that dirt bag, the mass murder not the little pickle.
I couldn't find any response from Pastor Knapp, could you?

Sorry to hear that a midget attacked you.
I know its been a long time, but pray for him.


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[HealthAndHappiness]

Sorry to hear that a midget attacked you.
I know its been a long time, but pray for him.


....

I'm way past that. Talk of violence from that church brought back memories.
I need sleep instead.

 

[Genez]

See, the problem I have with being taught by a Pastor or teacher today as your main source of learning is that they do not teach you how to fish.

You mean to say that you believe everything I think and say I have learned from my pastor?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You mean to say that you believe everything I think and say I have learned from my pastor?

Maybe not everything, but by the way you speak, it may be a good chunk of your learning.
I said what I did because nobody would come away from the Bible denying the blood atonement with a Berean spirit.
One only believes such false things because....

(a) They don't like the idea of the blood atonement,​

(b) They were spoon fed this idea by their masters rather than checking Scripture carefully to see whether those things be so or not.​

Meaning, when you have to ignore the plain meaning of Scripture in both the Greek and the English, alarm bells should be going off.
Then again, nobody even hears these types of alarms because they have not set themselves up in that kind of position to hear them.

I mean, is one ignorant to the Passover event and all the animal sacrifices?
God purchased the church with his blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.


....

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I'm way past that. Talk of violence from that church brought back memories.
I need sleep instead.

Sleep well.

May the Lord Jesus bless you.



....

 

[Genez]

Maybe not everything, but by the way you speak, it may be a good chunk of your learning.
I said what I did because nobody would come away from the Bible denying the blood atonement with a Berean spirit.
One only believes such false things because....

(a) They don't like the idea of the blood atonement,​

(b) They were spoon fed this idea by their masters rather than checking Scripture carefully to see whether those things be so or not.​

Meaning, when you have to ignore the plain meaning of Scripture in both the Greek and the English, alarm bells should be going off.
Then again, nobody even hears these types of alarms because they have not set themselves up in that kind of position to hear them.

I mean, is one ignorant to the Passover event and all the animal sacrifices?
God purchased the church with his blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Go ahead.
Find out how good you are at it.

There are people who will listen to truth.
Others want power to harass and break up the presentation of truth.
The Devil likes that kind.
The kind that had Jesus crucified in the name of religion.

 

[Genez]

Maybe not everything, but by the way you speak, it may be a good chunk of your learning.
I said what I did because nobody would come away from the Bible denying the blood atonement with a Berean spirit.
One only believes such false things because....

(a) They don't like the idea of the blood atonement,​

(b) They were spoon fed this idea by their masters rather than checking Scripture carefully to see whether those things be so or not.​

Meaning, when you have to ignore the plain meaning of Scripture in both the Greek and the English, alarm bells should be going off.
Then again, nobody even hears these types of alarms because they have not set themselves up in that kind of position to hear them.

I mean, is one ignorant to the Passover event and all the animal sacrifices?
God purchased the church with his blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Did Jesus physically bleed to death like an animal sacrifice? No.

Prove it?

Jesus declared salvation was finished while he was yet physically alive.

How could he declare that it was finished if your primitive, superficial thinking were true?

Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.​

​

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, ​

said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, ​

put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. John 19:27-30​

​

What was finished?
Was he simply commenting on the wine being finished?

Don't worry.
You'll have your following.
Just got to get them emotionally charged up first.

Are you good enough?
There are plenty of stupid people it will work on.

 

[Genez]

Maybe not everything, but by the way you speak, it may be a good chunk of your learning.
I said what I did because nobody would come away from the Bible denying the blood atonement with a Berean spirit.
One only believes such false things because....

(a) They don't like the idea of the blood atonement,​

(b) They were spoon fed this idea by their masters rather than checking Scripture carefully to see whether those things be so or not.​

Meaning, when you have to ignore the plain meaning of Scripture in both the Greek and the English, alarm bells should be going off.
Then again, nobody even hears these types of alarms because they have not set themselves up in that kind of position to hear them.

I mean, is one ignorant to the Passover event and all the animal sacrifices?
God purchased the church with his blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Go grab a cross.
Or, maybe just a rope?

In the mean while.
You are guilty of what you accuse of.

God is wise.
He makes the guilty to first become their own judge.

 

[Genez]

Maybe not everything, but by the way you speak, it may be a good chunk of your learning.
I said what I did because nobody would come away from the Bible denying the blood atonement with a Berean spirit.
One only believes such false things because....

No one is denying a blood atonement.

Jesus perfectly fulfilled spiritually what animal blood could only symbolize materially.

In case you're wondering.

Do not think I have any hope of making sense to you.
You are enjoying this too much.

God is my witness.

 

[Genez]

I mean, is one ignorant to the Passover event and all the animal sacrifices?
God purchased the church with his blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

I attended many PASSOVER SEDARS while I was a Jew.

You equate Jesus' sacrifice on the same level as an animal?
You are totally missing the spiritual death that Jesus agonized through while he bore all mankind's sins.
A mere animal could not experience spiritual death.
Its death could only symbolize spiritual death with physical props provided in the animal sacrifice itself.

Jesus screamed out.. "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?
What does that mean to you?

Why was God forsaking him?
How was God forsaking him?

Answer those questions.

 

[Qt]

Now I know that I cannot take this conversation seriously anymore. You just by-passed all the lexical information I provided and provided your own source that does not have it. So is your info more authorative than the lexicons I provided? You would have to establish that fact with sources, and you really haven not done that.

The fact that another poster actually liked your post here establishes the lack of lazy research on original language words that goes on here.


…..

It is the LSJ to which you said backed up the KJV translation. It obviously doesn't. Here is the BDAG. It doesn't either.

κατέχω impf. κατεῖχον; fut. καθέξω LXX, 3 pl. κατασχήσουσι (JosAs 16 [p. 64, 18 Bat. and cod. A]); 2 aor. κατέσχον. Pass.: fut. 2 pl. κατασχεθήσεσθε Ruth 1:13; aor. 3 sg. κατεσχέθη LXX (s. ἔχω; Hom.+). Trans. in all mngs. below, except 7.
to prevent the doing of someth. or cause to be ineffective, prevent, hinder, restrain
to hold someone back from going away hold back, hinder, prevent from going away (Hom. et al.; BGU 1205, 27 [28 B.C.]; 37, 6 [50 A.D.];

PFay 109, 11; Gen 24:56; cp. Jos., Ant. 7, 76; Just., A I, 45, 1) Hs 9, 11, 6. ὃν ἐβουλόμην πρὸς ἐμαυτὸν κ. whom I wished to keep with me Phlm 13. Foll. by gen. of the inf. w. article (B-D-F §400, 4) οἱ ὄχλοι κατεῖχον αὐτὸν τοῦ μὴ πορεύεσθαι ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν Lk 4:42.
hold down, suppress τὶ someth. (γέλωτα X., Cyr. 2, 2, 1; Chariton 3, 7, 4 τ. λύπην; WCrum, Coptic Ostraca p. 4, 522=Dssm., LO 260 [LAE 306]=PGM II 233, no. O 1, 1–3 Κρόνος, ὁ κατέχων τὸν θυμὸν ὅλων τ. ἀνθρώπων, κάτεχε τ. θυμὸν Ὡρι; cp. II, 7, 935f, p 41; Jos., Vi. 233 τ. ὀργήν) τ. ἀλήθειαν ἐν ἀδικίᾳ stifle the truth by unrighteousness/ wickedness Ro 1:18 (cp. JFitzmyer, Ro [AB], ’93, 278; but s. 6 below).
to prevent someone from exercising power, restrain, check (Thu. 6, 29, 3; Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 149 §622 τοῦ δαίμονος κατέχοντος τὸ πέλαγος=divine power held the sea back until Alexander reached the other shore; PGiss 70, 3 [II A.D.] ἡ ἀναγραφὴ κατέσχεν ἡμᾶς μέχρι ὥρας ἕκτης) ἵνα μὴ κατέξω τ̣ὰ [προσ]|τεταγμένα καὶ ἐπεικίμ̣[εν]α so that I might not delay (carrying out) the instructions and orders AcPl Ha 7, 14f. τὸ κατέχον (Themistocl., Ep. 13, 4) 2 Th 2:6 and ὁ κατέχων vs. 7 mean that which restrains and one who restrains, i.e. what prevents God’s adversary fr. coming out in open opposition to God, for the time being. In an effort to define κ. more specifically here, many interpreters have followed the exegesis of the ancient church (Tertullian) and taken τὸ κ. to be the Roman Empire and ὁ κ. the Emperor (OBetz, NTS 9, ’63, 276–91). An alternative view, as old as Theodore of Mops., but without sustained acceptance, would make τὸ κ. the preaching of Christian missionaries and ὁ κ. the apostle Paul (so OCullmann, Dodd Festschr. ’56, 409–21). These and other attempts to limit more precisely the mng. of these terms in 2 Th invite skepticism because of insufficient textual data (vs. 5 appears to imply in-house information). The concept of the temporary restraining of the forces of hell (cp. Rtzst., Poim. 27 late Egyptian prayer 6, 4 Horus as κατέχων δράκοντα=PGM 4, 994f; cp. 2770 Μιχαὴλ … κατέχων, ὃν καλέουσι δράκοντα μέγαν) does not appear to play any role here.—WBousset, D. Antichrist 1895; NFreese, StKr 93, 1921, 73–77; VHartl, ZKT 45, 1921, 455–75; WSchröder, D. 2. Thess. 1929, 8–15; DBuzy, RSR 24, ’34, 402–31; OCullmann, RThAM 1, ’38, 26–61; JSchmid, TQ 129, ’49, 323–43; OBetz, NTS 9, ’63, 276–91. Difft. CGiblin, Threat to Faith ’67, 167–242, a hostile power. S. also JTownsend, SBLSP 19, ’80, 233–46; RAus, JBL 96, ’77, 537–53; New Docs 3, 28.
to hold back with design hold back τὶ someth. κ. ἐν μυστηρίῳ τὴν σοφὴν αὐτοῦ βουλήν hold back his wise plan as a secret Dg 8:10.
to adhere firmly to traditions, convictions, or beliefs, hold to, hold fast (cp. the lit. sense λαμπάδας ἐν ταῖς χερσίν ParJer 3:2)
keep in one’s memory (Theophr., Char. 26, 2, a word of Homer) εἰ κατέχετε if you hold it fast 1 Cor 15:2.
hold fast, retain faithfully (X., Symp. 8, 26 τ. φιλίαν; TestJud 26:1 τ. ὁδούς) τὸν λόγον Lk 8:15. τὰς παραδόσεις guard the traditions 1 Cor 11:2. τὸ καλόν hold fast what is good 1 Th 5:21; Agr 11. τὴν παρρησίαν βεβαίαν κ. keep the confidence firm Hb 3:6; cp. vs. 14. κ. τὴν ὁμολογίαν ἀκλινῆ 10:23.
to keep in one’s possession, possess (Ps.-Aristot., Mirabilia 159; 160; Polyb. 1, 2, 3; IMagnMai 105, 51 [II B.C.] ἵνα ἔχωσιν κατέχωσίν τε καρπίζωνταί τε; Ezk 33:24; Da 7:18, 22; Ath. 8:3) τὶ someth. Mt 21:38 v.l.; ὡς μηδὲν ἔχοντες καὶ πάντα κατέχοντες 2 Cor 6:10 (DMealand [ZNW 67, ’76, 277–79] cites Ps.-Crates Ep. 7 Hercher=p. 58 no. 7, 8 Malherbe: ἔχοντες μηδὲν πάντ᾿ ἔχομεν, ὑμεῖς δὲ πάντ᾿ ἔχοντες οὐδὲν ἔχετε). Abs. 1 Cor 7:30.
to keep within limits in a confining manner, confine
in prison keep, confine (PFlor 61, 60; BGU 372 I, 16; Gen 39:20; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 21) pass. Χριστιανοὶ κατέχονται ὡς ἐν φρουρᾷ τῷ κόσμῳ they are confined in the world as in a prison Dg 6:7.
by law: ἀποθανόντες ἐν ᾧ κατειχόμεθα having died to that by which we were bound Ro 7:6 (cp. PAmh 97, 17 οὐ κατασχεθήσομαι τῇ ὑποσχέσει; PRyl 117, 13).
by disease (Diod. S. 4, 14, 5; Philo, Op. M. 71, Congr. Erud. Grat. 138; PSI 299, 3 κατεσχέθην νόσῳ; act., Jer 13:21; Jos., Vi. 48) Lk 4:38 D; J 5:4 v.l.
to have a place as one’s own, take into one’s possession, occupy (Hdt. 5, 72 et al.; PAmh 30, 26 [II B.C.] τὴν οἰκίαν) τὸν ἔσχατον τόπον Lk 14:9 (cp. Philosoph. Max. 491, 69 τὸν κάλλιστον κατέχουσι τόπον; Jos., Ant. 8, 104). Cp. GPt 5:15.—AcPl Ha 5, 28 [κατ]ε̣ῖ̣χεν αὐτὰς ἔκστασις perh. means astonishment overcame them.
lay claim to, legal t.t. Ro 1:18 (the point is that a claim is made for truth, which is denied in practice, cp. vss. 22f; s. FDanker, in Gingrich Festschr. 93. For a difft. interpr. see 1b above).
hold course, nautical t.t., intr. (Hdt. 7, 188 κατέσχε ἐς τὸν αἰγιαλόν; Dicaearchus, fgm. 85 W. εἰς Δῆλον κατέσχε; Polyb. 1, 25, 7; Philostrat., Vi. Apoll. 4, 13 p. 133, 5; 5, 18 p. 178, 13; cp. Jos., Ant. 1, 204) κατεῖχον εἰς τὸν αἰγιαλόν they headed for the beach Ac 27:40.
Perh. in the sense of determine (cp. προσέχω 2c) κατεχόντων εἰ ἄρα ἀληθῶς ἀπέθανεν AcPt Ox 849, 2f; s. ed.’s notes.—M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.

I can keep going. There are more.

Incidentally you say more than you ought. Maybe keep your subjective comments about people out of it. It does nothing to exhort or edify.

 

[Qt]

Now I know that I cannot take this conversation seriously anymore. You just by-passed all the lexical information I provided and provided your own source that does not have it. So is your info more authorative than the lexicons I provided? You would have to establish that fact with sources, and you really haven not done that.

There are 19 occurences of the word in question. In all the other instances it is translated as I showed you.


Luke 4:42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 14:9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

Acts 27:40 And when they had taken up the anchors, they committed themselves unto the sea, and loosed the rudder bands, and hoised up the mainsail to the wind, and made toward shore.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

1Cor 7:30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;

1Cor 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2Cor 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

1Thess 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

2Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Phlm 1:13 Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel:

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Matt 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.


It is obvious that the KJV translators took liberties when translating 1Cor 15:2. It is an even worse example than the first example I showed you. You need to reconsider your position. If I took the time we could show you many more.