Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

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That is not what is "impossible" in the verse.

16 verses:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
 
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... (in regards to salvation unto eternal life...)


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30-31​
No. That is not a definition of saved that fits all the occurrences of sOzO and sOtEria in the Bible.

Mat 8:25
And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

Are they asking Jesus to enable them to believe in Him?
 
Wow! Sin requires no thinking. That is a defense attorney's greatest gift. "Your Honor. He is not guilty because he did what he did naturally without thinking about it so you must find him "innocent." Thus killing his wife is just "an impulse" and thus not evil.. Your job judge is to determine was the murder thinking "anti-truth" or was he just sinning? If just sinning you must let him go free under the get out of hell card he holds that covers all his sins but not his "evils."

How convienent.
Clarification.....

Sin begins with the flesh.
It requires no thinking to sin.

Evil works with a thought-out rationalization, justifying sinning.
Evil requires thought.
Sin does not.


Romans 8:3-4

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on
account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous
requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What it does not say?

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through evil.
.
 
No. That is not a definition of saved that fits all the occurrences of sOzO and sOtEria in the Bible.

Mat 8:25
And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

Are they asking Jesus to enable them to believe in Him?


Is there more than one way to express "saved?"
 
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A major point often misunderstood.
Do not confuse "EVIL" to mean "sin."
Adam did not eat from the Tree of Good and Sin.
He ate from Good and Evil.

Jesus died for the sins of the world.
Jesus could not die for evil.

For to do so?
He would have had to reject Himself.

Those who follow EVIL will reject the message of salvation.
“major point often misunderstood.
Do not confuse "EVIL" to mean "sin."
Adam did not eat from the Tree of Good and Sin.
He ate from Good and Evil.”

yeah sin is when you reject the good and do the evil action described by the law which defines sin . Evil is the motivation for the sinful action. It’s never God or good pressing and pulling us to sin.

The whole issue is we were made for the good and truth and not for the conflicted knowledge of good and evil . That’s why it was forbidden were made to heed and listen and learn from God and trust and obey him . Not meant to decide between good and evil , but to accept and follow gods word .

What Adam did made us like this
God had forbidden them to partake of the good and evil because he knew it would cause this state within us

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. ( we sinners might want to always do good but we can’t figure out how to actually do it always because …) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.( Adam caused this conflict of good and evil within man this is what a sinner is like inside )

….. but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:18-21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The knowledge of good and evil is the reason mankind sins at all and why god had forbidden it to begin with. We were created to listen to and follow after his word trusting him . Having the knowledge of good and evil within us means we now are constantly conflicted between and pulled between good and evil .

when we choose to serve sin we’re serving the evil that is behind the temptation to commit the sin based upon the law of sin created by the forbidden knowledge of good and evil within us


man isn’t made to decide for ourselves and be pulled between good and evil , that’s fallen man’s state. A state of being ruled by sin. Man was created to dwell with and trust God and simply whatever he told us was true we’re meant to just hear it and believe and act upon it but now we have a constant struggle between good and evil . Sinful action is motivated by the knowledge of evil within us.



“Jesus died for the sins of the world.”Jesus could not die for evil.”

So you’re saying sin isn’t evil ? I’m not really understanding your point .

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”( knowledge of evil )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thses people who were constantly imagining and doing evil were all sinning against God. Jesus died to remove the death sentance required for thier sins. I’m not understanding your point at all
“Those who follow EVIL will reject the message of salvation.”

We’ve all who have lived long at all have followed evil at some point is my position. And that’s why Jesus had to come teaching the true knowledge of God rather than the good and evil knowledge the law describes.

just as it’s always been there’s still a conflict for Christian’s and we’re instructed

Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This however is not for a non believer but only for those who believe the gospel. Then they are empowered ( see Roman’s chapter 6 ) to overcome the temptations of evil and the dominion of sin over them because it’s rooted within thier minds and hearts through the forbidden knowledge
 
As I said before, I can take every verse you are citing in support of your argument and use them to disprove your argument. All I have to do is to challenge your undeclared but obvious underlying assumptions. The biggest difference is I can cite both scripture and other objective evidence in support of my assumptions. As for claiming revelation from the HS, only the HS knows with absolute certainty which of us has received the revelation and which has been deceived.
“I can take every verse you are citing in support of your argument and use them to disprove your argument.”

You seem to think a lot about what you can do but you haven’t addressed a single verse I showed you so I’m gonna move on and assume you have absolutely no response to any of them
 
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Good example of what I was getting at.
We can not overcome sin with good.
We must acknowledge our sin to God by confessing it for what it is. (1 John 1:9)

Evil on the other hand is overcome by divine good we have by grace and truth.
That requires thinking to do.
 
Salvation has three parts - Justification, Sanctification and Glorification, as the start, process and end of your salvation journey. Justification is instantaneous and permanent, sanctification lasts for the rest of your life.
 
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Salvation has three parts - Justification, Sanctification and Glorification, as the start, process and end of your salvation journey. Justification is instantaneous and permanent, sanctification lasts for the rest of your life.
Sanctification is more properly known as the salvation of the soul. It is the "goal of our faith" (1 Peter 1:9) and is performed by the Holy Spirit using God's word (James 1:21).
 
Is there more than one way to express "saved?"
He saved (preserved) some of his dinner for supper.
He saved (rescued) the drowning girl from the river .
She saved (deposited for safe-keeping) money in the bank.
She saved (revived) the patient using CPR.

To save: to preserve someone or something from loss; or to deliver someone or something from a loss.

Salvation: preservation from or deliverance from loss.

Would these definitions apply to sOzein (to save) and sOtEria (salvation) everywhere they occur in scripture?

Does the word inherently imply that the preservation or deliverance must be permanent for it to be a true preservation or deliverance?
 
“I can take every verse you are citing in support of your argument and use them to disprove your argument.”

You seem to think a lot about what you can do but you haven’t addressed a single verse I showed you so I’m gonna move on and assume you have absolutely no response to any of them
Move on, it does not b other me. I follow different assumptions, so without extensive explanations, you could not follow my logic anyway. I follow what the common person in the 1st century would have known, thus spotting things you cannot see with your 21st century eyes, especially since they have been blinded by tradition that decrees that some things just cannot be true as they are too dangerous to the church (aka, traditional teachings operating out of fear, something lacking in God's love).

Now if you can come up with a list of what qualifies as scripture that does not reek of human decisions, we might get somewhere, but the closest I have ever seen, and still very vague, is "all the law and the prophets", but which version of the 1st century Torah, or all versions, and which prophets, possibly including works most Christians do not include.
 
16 verses:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

As I have explained what is impossible to is be born again, more than once, which is what the audience to whom the author was writing were trying to do. They thought it was like animal sacrifices which needed to be repeated.

The others wonderful verses exhort the believer to persevere in the faith, to be faithful to the faith for a victorious walk and for the richness they will receive in the after life.

As well, falling from grace is not being unjustified, it does however mean not availing one's self to the richness of God' grace.

Un-justification makes no sense.

It is not a concept found in scripture, of course there are always verses, when plucked out of context which can be misconstrued.:sneaky:
 
As I have explained what is impossible to is be born again, more than once, which is what the audience to whom the author was writing were trying to do. They thought it was like animal sacrifices which needed to be repeated.

The others wonderful verses exhort the believer to persevere in the faith, to be faithful to the faith for a victorious walk and for the richness they will receive in the after life.

As well, falling from grace is not being unjustified, it does however mean not availing one's self to the richness of God' grace.

Un-justification makes no sense.

It is not a concept found in scripture, of course there are always verses, when plucked out of context which can be misconstrued.:sneaky:

Yes, it is impossible to repent of apostasy and be reborn again, which is why people should pay attention to the warnings against committing that unforgiveable sin instead of ignoring those exhortations to persevere as tulipists/OSASers do by kicking against a concept taught 16 times in GW as I posted previously, which provide the context for whatever prooftext might be cited.
 
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Move on, it does not b other me. I follow different assumptions, so without extensive explanations, you could not follow my logic anyway. I follow what the common person in the 1st century would have known, thus spotting things you cannot see with your 21st century eyes, especially since they have been blinded by tradition that decrees that some things just cannot be true as they are too dangerous to the church (aka, traditional teachings operating out of fear, something lacking in God's love).

Now if you can come up with a list of what qualifies as scripture that does not reek of human decisions, we might get somewhere, but the closest I have ever seen, and still very vague, is "all the law and the prophets", but which version of the 1st century Torah, or all versions, and which prophets, possibly including works most Christians do not include.
I’m here to discuss what .the Bible actually says , I’m gonna find others that want to do that have a good one
 
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As I have explained what is impossible to is be born again, more than once, which is what the audience to whom the author was writing were trying to do. They thought it was like animal sacrifices which needed to be repeated.

The others wonderful verses exhort the believer to persevere in the faith, to be faithful to the faith for a victorious walk and for the richness they will receive in the after life.

As well, falling from grace is not being unjustified, it does however mean not availing one's self to the richness of God' grace.

Un-justification makes no sense.

It is not a concept found in scripture, of course there are always verses, when plucked out of context which can be misconstrued.:sneaky:
what do you make of sections like this ?

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

( why is this being driven home so pointedly ?)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:23-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m just wondering how you read that and what you hear in it
 
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Romans8-29-30-Ephesians1-5.png

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.
 
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Yes, it is impossible to repent of apostasy and be reborn again, which is why people should pay attention to the warnings against committing that unforgiveable sin instead of ignoring those exhortations to persevere as tulipists/OSASers do by kicking against a concept taught 16 times in GW as I posted previously, which provide the context for whatever prooftext might be cited.

In your dogma then the status of justified is not a present reality for the believer which makes no sense to be honest, along with the fact that all the blessings which flow from the status of justified are not real either.

In my view the truth sets you free, people who deny eternal security (justified/declared in right standing) based wholly on the work of Christ Jesus deny themselves a deeper, richer understanding and walk with the Lord not based on fear but love and service.
 
what do you make of sections like this ?

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

( why is this being driven home so pointedly ?)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:23-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m just wondering how you read that and what you hear in it

Thank you for the question .. I will come back to it.. my garden needs tending.:)
 
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