Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
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Those guys are sharper than any free-willer preacher I've heard.
In fact, I can't think of a single free-willer preacher I'd want to listen to.
Most of them are dispensational so they are fixated on end-time speculation, etcetera..or legalists, so they don't really understand union with Christ...they simply preach morals without grace....or antinomians who preach grace without any fruit being produced from salvation.
They can't get their story right
I'm not sure how that helps anything with regards to your claim that those individuals are already believers.
By the way, no matter what you say about those verses, they prove that God GRANTS repentance as a gift
1. Believers can, in fact, act against their nature, which has been changed. Unbelievers are acting against the image of God that
they still possess, albeit in a shattered or broken way.
2. This is one possible interpretation of 2 Tim 2, but all unbelievers are caught in the snare of Satan.
God does have an elect people that is scattered to all ends of the earth, and it is to the elect that Isaiah is referencing. Verse 17 says, But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, Israel is the seed of Jacob, mentioned in verse 19, and in verse 20 that they have no knowledge.
Gen 33:28, God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel. Jacob is representative of the elect of God, Rom 9:11. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach unto the lost sheep (God's elect) of the house of Jacob/Israel, Matt 10:6. God's elect, as newborn babes in Christ are lacking in knowledge of the fullness of the gospel and are in need of the preaching of the gospel by the Apostles.
Matt 24:31, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (all the ends of the earth does not mean all the inhabitants of the earth).
Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Salvation, according to Greek, means= "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance (salvation) by God's sovereign grace, and there are many deliverances we receive here on earth. The newborn babes in Christ are in need of being delivered (saved) from their lack of knowledge of the fullness of the gospel.
God gave mankind a free choice to live his life as he chooses here on earth, and all mankind choose not to seek God. Psalms 53:2-3. That is why God choose an elect people and regenerates them to a spiritual life, so that he would have a people to praise and honor him. Romans 9:26, And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ye are not my people, there shall they be called the children of the living God.
I agree with you without a doubt that Isaiah 45 is talking about Israel, what I have been conveying to you in the past that when one pulls a verse out of context one tends to distort the Scriptures which is what you have been doing by not weighing passages truthfully and fairly and that is because you are impressed with a doctrine of man, but it is not scriptural.
Now that you know how important it is not to pull verses out of context and to weigh passages, statements and question truthfully and fairly, please respond to the following... You stated that salvation is for the elects (Israel), if you are correct then you cannot be an elect because you are not from the tribe of Israel, right? Now I understand why you FEEL very confidence that you are an elect, but that is your hope because you yourself are not sure according to yesterday's response. If Israel is God's elect, which I agree with, my question to you, how can you say he is coming for his elect when the Gospel came to the Gentiles? In addition, if salvation is only for God's elect (Israel) then Abraham and Isaac cannot be included they were Hebrew. With your believe Abraham and Isaac are washed away.
Yes, God changed Jacob's name to Israel and the the twelve tribes came forth through Jacob, but the Apostle Paul is talking to Jews on the Gospel of God in the book of Romans, but remember he was the Apostle to the Gentiles who were not of the tribe of Israel. So, it is a truthful and fair statement to make, just because the Apostle Paul was talking to the Jews does not mean that God did not offer the salvation to the Gentiles, right?
It is said that the book of Matthews was written for the Jews and it is clear from its writing that it was written for a Jewish Christian audience, not to mention that the Gospel of Matthews is the most Jewish of all the gospels. Not to mention and to my recollection, the verse you provided is the only Gospel book that talks about the gathering of God's elect.
I did not respond to Daniels and your salvation comments because it had nothing to do with the above. In the past, I explained to you about all mankind choose not to seek God and I agree, but that does not mean that God does not give the opportunity to others to be saved. Israel is his elect, he chose them to be a people, but the Apostle Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. You are are pulling verses out of context and when it comes to the word "elect" you do not have a clear understanding of that word.
Please respond to my comments.
Now that you know how important it is not to pull verses out of context and to weigh passages, statements and question truthfully and fairly, please respond to the following... You stated that salvation is for the elects (Israel), if you are correct then you cannot be an elect because you are not from the tribe of Israel, right? Now I understand why you FEEL very confidence that you are an elect, but that is your hope because you yourself are not sure according to yesterday's response. If Israel is God's elect, which I agree with, my question to you, how can you say he is coming for his elect when the Gospel came to the Gentiles? In addition, if salvation is only for God's elect (Israel) then Abraham and Isaac cannot be included they were Hebrew. With your believe Abraham and Isaac are washed away.
Yes, God changed Jacob's name to Israel and the the twelve tribes came forth through Jacob, but the Apostle Paul is talking to Jews on the Gospel of God in the book of Romans, but remember he was the Apostle to the Gentiles who were not of the tribe of Israel. So, it is a truthful and fair statement to make, just because the Apostle Paul was talking to the Jews does not mean that God did not offer the salvation to the Gentiles, right?
It is said that the book of Matthews was written for the Jews and it is clear from its writing that it was written for a Jewish Christian audience, not to mention that the Gospel of Matthews is the most Jewish of all the gospels. Not to mention and to my recollection, the verse you provided is the only Gospel book that talks about the gathering of God's elect.
I did not respond to Daniels and your salvation comments because it had nothing to do with the above. In the past, I explained to you about all mankind choose not to seek God and I agree, but that does not mean that God does not give the opportunity to others to be saved. Israel is his elect, he chose them to be a people, but the Apostle Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. You are are pulling verses out of context and when it comes to the word "elect" you do not have a clear understanding of that word.
Please respond to my comments.
Sorry, but you are not understanding the difference in the nation of Israel, and Jacob/Israel. Every time you see "Israel" in the scriptures, you are applying it to the nation of Israel, and most of the time it has reference to Jacob/Israel. You should study the whole chapter of Romans 9. Rom 9:6, Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL. You are the one that is taking scriptures out of context. Rom 11:26, And so all Israel (Jacob) shall be saved (delivered); as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from "JACOB".
We know that every citizen of the nation of Israel will not be delivered eternally, only Jacob/Israel. That is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach (only) to the lost sheep (God's elect) of the "house of Israel" (Jacob/Israel). The sheep (God's elect) were lost because they were newborn babes in Christ and did not have the full knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Romans 10:1-3, is an example of newborn babes in Christ that are in need of Paul teaching them the knowledge of the full gospel of Jesus. These people were of Jacob/Israel, the elect, evidenced by having a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
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I do understand the difference between the children of the promise and the children of the flesh and with my emphasis on the twelve tribes made that clear. I will respond tomorrow, it is late here and I am rea to hang it up for the day.
If you think that my understanding of the "elect" is wrong, then give me your understanding of "the elect".
The Jews and the Gentiles both together is part of the body of Jacob/Israel, which is all of the elect people of God. Jacob/Israel includes some people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9.
The children of promise, Jacob/Israel, include far more than just the twelve tribes. I hope you had a restful night.
You are correct that the children of the promise includes far more the the twelve tribes, meaning not only the elects. Israel being chosen of God does not dismiss the truth of the Scriptures that salvation is for all and not just the elects. In brief, what is your biblical definition of elect?
I will respond to your previous email as well.
I will respond to your previous email as well.
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Let me correct you, Israel is God's chosen and both the chosen and the Gentiles believers whose spirits were quickened to serve God is of the body of Yeshua, though the Gentiles became part of the commonwealth of Israel. But let me make this clear, one makes the decision to serve God which you probably disagree with because of the doctrine that you were impressed with.
Hoping that I responded to all your recent post and if I did not let me know and I will respond accordingly.
I once was given a book from watchman nee and he said God died for the Sin of the world But not the sins of the world. Etc...but a couple of days later God held me and said...Jesus died for not our sins only but the sins of the whole world..1 John...and He said it is so clear...yet a man with one of the biggest churches was so wrong....Calvanism is not in the Bible nor Reformed theology....there are 66 books and you would never get Cessastionism out of the Bible by reading it....but man(pastors many) and I'm a head pastor training pastors world wide...would come up with what is doctrines of men....its best to just learn the Bible and not worry what so many write and make there millions....
the Bible is fine and understandable...it was written at a 5th grade educational level....but people will talk and talk but just not buckle down and read the whole Bible till they know the whole thing....so many people argue about so many unbilical things as if they are in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit promises to teach all truth....its not Ammelinalism either...there is ONE TRUTH and the Bible is it....and it's not different for different people....God warns that people will come with there own interpretations...but if a car accident happens and 10 people watch it....the truth of what happened IS and nothing the 10 people say changes the TRUTH
the Bible is fine and understandable...it was written at a 5th grade educational level....but people will talk and talk but just not buckle down and read the whole Bible till they know the whole thing....so many people argue about so many unbilical things as if they are in the Bible.
The Holy Spirit promises to teach all truth....its not Ammelinalism either...there is ONE TRUTH and the Bible is it....and it's not different for different people....God warns that people will come with there own interpretations...but if a car accident happens and 10 people watch it....the truth of what happened IS and nothing the 10 people say changes the TRUTH
First, some of us are not here to change people mind and it is not our job to change the minds of others, we put it on the table hoping that the Spirit of God enlightens their mind about what God made clear when he first spoke. No one should go into the Scripture trying to interpret what God is say, God is clear and the Spirit of God will enlighten one's mind with the truth of God's word.
You are correct on calvinism and sensationalism is not scriptural teaching, they are distorted teachings and doctrine of man. Amazing that a simple book many makes it appear as it is a book of theology. I commend you for saying that the Scripture is like written at a 5th grade level, I myself wrote a book titled "SEEK GOD", I could have written it using $10 words, but I did not write it to impress, but to encourage others to seriously seek God. Though I sold copies, people (including believers) rather purchase books on prosperity living then purchasing a book on walking with God.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE ONE THAT ENLIGHTENS OUR EYES WITH THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD, WHAT GOD MADE CLEAR WHEN HE FIRST SPOKE.
You are correct on calvinism and sensationalism is not scriptural teaching, they are distorted teachings and doctrine of man. Amazing that a simple book many makes it appear as it is a book of theology. I commend you for saying that the Scripture is like written at a 5th grade level, I myself wrote a book titled "SEEK GOD", I could have written it using $10 words, but I did not write it to impress, but to encourage others to seriously seek God. Though I sold copies, people (including believers) rather purchase books on prosperity living then purchasing a book on walking with God.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE ONE THAT ENLIGHTENS OUR EYES WITH THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD, WHAT GOD MADE CLEAR WHEN HE FIRST SPOKE.
That all sounds really spiritual and all but how do you deal with the fact that Scripture teaches election and predestination? How do you deal with I Cor 1:26ff which teaches that GOD CHOOSES weak people to display his glory?
By the way I always find it amusing when critics can’t even spell Calvin. What confidence does that give me that he can rightly criticize it?
I can't spell it because it's not in God's Word lmao and free will and pre determination are both there....God knows all....no one will be in he'll but those who did not put their faith in Christ....there is Grace...but faith is real stuff that people have to choose to use....for there is free will faith...and God decides just how much to work with each person
And limited atonement is dumb and makes no sense...which is what the tread is about...Jesus died for all people(the world)
I am not disputing that we make a decision to serve God, but it is only after we have been born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, before he has been born again, Eph 2, will not make a decision to serve a spiritual God, in fact, it says that he "cannot" discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness.
In your belief, the natural man gets credit for his accepting spiritual things, and that God wants to save all mankind eternally, but he can't, because some of mankind will not accept him.
In my belief; God gets all of the credit for man's eternal deliverance, and man gets no credit, Which of these two beliefs gives more honor and praise to God?
John 17:2, As thou hast given him "power over all flesh", that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. If God gave "all mankind" to him to die on the cross for, (as your belief claims), then, in your belief, he would give eternal life to all mankind, and we both know that the scriptures will not harmonize that belief.