Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
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In view of Revelation 19, this would be absurd. But some love absurdity over reality.
The Resurrection/Rapture -- by definition -- must be a distinct event from the Second Coming of Christ. The first is for ultimate salvation, the second is for ultimate judgment and damnation. And that is why all the kindreds of the earth will weep and wail and mourn at the Second Coming.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
The Resurrection/Rapture -- by definition -- must be a distinct event from the Second Coming of Christ. The first is for ultimate salvation, the second is for ultimate judgment and damnation. And that is why all the kindreds of the earth will weep and wail and mourn at the Second Coming.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
But the catholics claim that Jesus is literally in the bread and wine. Therefore those who take of the elements have Jesus dwelling in them.
Do you believe this? I DON'T
from link - [We are] nourished and deepened through our participation in the Eucharist. By eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist we become united to the person of Christ through his humanity. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" -
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wo...turgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-faqs
Do you believe this? I DON'T
from link - [We are] nourished and deepened through our participation in the Eucharist. By eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist we become united to the person of Christ through his humanity. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" -
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wo...turgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-faqs
But the catholics claim that Jesus is literally in the bread and wine. Therefore those who take of the elements have Jesus dwelling in them.
Do you believe this? I DON'T
from link - [We are] nourished and deepened through our participation in the Eucharist. By eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist we become united to the person of Christ through his humanity. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" -
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wo...turgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-faqs
Do you believe this? I DON'T
from link - [We are] nourished and deepened through our participation in the Eucharist. By eating the Body and drinking the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist we become united to the person of Christ through his humanity. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" -
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wo...turgy-of-the-eucharist/the-real-presence-faqs
So I'm just going to weigh in on this with a simple explaination as to which one of all the theories is right.
None. They haven't happened yet.
Speculation is all well and good but not something worth fighting over.
When it happens, we can look at the timeline and events and let God show us when it occurs.
As far as I'm concerned, pre/mid/post trib are nothing more than conjectures or guesses.
It is the Bible, the Word of God that is the Truth.
Interpretation of future events and doctrines teaching those interpretations are merely human conjecture. Educated and rooted in Scripture, yes, but still human interpretation.
So how do we decide which is true?
Accept that any one of the three might be accurate, as we've seen in this discussion earlier. And why should we be emotionally invested in a particular interpretation or doctrine or base our faith on only one?
When you are considering future avenues, there are always possibilities.
Pre/mid/post trib interpretation is just that, a human guess and conjecture.
It doesn't matter if you are wrong or right. Because it has no bearing on your salvation. And is certainly not worth fighting with our brothers and sisters in Christ over.
Let's say the End Times begins:
Pre Trib rapture occurs, we can auto scratch off the other two and just ignore them.
Next scenario: Pre trib does not occur, and we see the actual rise of the BIG antichrist (not the ones referred to as more than one existing, but THE BIG DADDY of antichrists.)
Well, we can scratch off pre trib when that happens. So the we just do what we're supposed to do until mid or post happens.
And if mid doesn't happen?
Well. You keep your faith in Christ anyway, because it's not contingent on human interpretation of doctrine, but your faith is based on accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and King and God.
Then we get to the end, and POST trib rapture happens: Well. We've scratched off the other two. And you're still saved.
Let's say NO rapture happens?
Well. You live, you die, you still get your resurrection and eternal life, because again, your faith isn't based on conjecture of which one is or isn't accurate, it's still based on Christ Jesus.
You cannot call any of the three or others false teachers. Why? Because the doctrine of the Rapture is a human interpretation. Based on Scripture? Sure. But it is Scripture that is God's Word, not our interpretation of it.
You can't call someone a false teacher for sharing their speculations, as long as it doesn't contradict the Scriptures. And none of them contradict it. They simply are different logic paths people have taken in interpreting it.
Unless of course they try to say something blatantly false like say, that there is no Resurrection or other event specifically stated in the Scripture. And I say specific, not "inferred."
Calling people false teachers because they hold an interpretation you hold is silly in fighting.
Fact is, we don't KNOW which of them is the right interpretation, because all three have fair arguments, and really they're just guesses at best.
We should be united in Christ, and that's really all that matters. Because that's what our salvation is based on. Our faith in Christ.
Because when you fight over whose interpretation is right (when really it could be any) you're not standing up for the Word of God.
You're fighting for your own ego. Sowing division. At that point, Lucifer has won.
None. They haven't happened yet.
Speculation is all well and good but not something worth fighting over.
When it happens, we can look at the timeline and events and let God show us when it occurs.
As far as I'm concerned, pre/mid/post trib are nothing more than conjectures or guesses.
It is the Bible, the Word of God that is the Truth.
Interpretation of future events and doctrines teaching those interpretations are merely human conjecture. Educated and rooted in Scripture, yes, but still human interpretation.
So how do we decide which is true?
Accept that any one of the three might be accurate, as we've seen in this discussion earlier. And why should we be emotionally invested in a particular interpretation or doctrine or base our faith on only one?
When you are considering future avenues, there are always possibilities.
Pre/mid/post trib interpretation is just that, a human guess and conjecture.
It doesn't matter if you are wrong or right. Because it has no bearing on your salvation. And is certainly not worth fighting with our brothers and sisters in Christ over.
Let's say the End Times begins:
Pre Trib rapture occurs, we can auto scratch off the other two and just ignore them.
Next scenario: Pre trib does not occur, and we see the actual rise of the BIG antichrist (not the ones referred to as more than one existing, but THE BIG DADDY of antichrists.)
Well, we can scratch off pre trib when that happens. So the we just do what we're supposed to do until mid or post happens.
And if mid doesn't happen?
Well. You keep your faith in Christ anyway, because it's not contingent on human interpretation of doctrine, but your faith is based on accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and King and God.
Then we get to the end, and POST trib rapture happens: Well. We've scratched off the other two. And you're still saved.
Let's say NO rapture happens?
Well. You live, you die, you still get your resurrection and eternal life, because again, your faith isn't based on conjecture of which one is or isn't accurate, it's still based on Christ Jesus.
You cannot call any of the three or others false teachers. Why? Because the doctrine of the Rapture is a human interpretation. Based on Scripture? Sure. But it is Scripture that is God's Word, not our interpretation of it.
You can't call someone a false teacher for sharing their speculations, as long as it doesn't contradict the Scriptures. And none of them contradict it. They simply are different logic paths people have taken in interpreting it.
Unless of course they try to say something blatantly false like say, that there is no Resurrection or other event specifically stated in the Scripture. And I say specific, not "inferred."
Calling people false teachers because they hold an interpretation you hold is silly in fighting.
Fact is, we don't KNOW which of them is the right interpretation, because all three have fair arguments, and really they're just guesses at best.
We should be united in Christ, and that's really all that matters. Because that's what our salvation is based on. Our faith in Christ.
Because when you fight over whose interpretation is right (when really it could be any) you're not standing up for the Word of God.
You're fighting for your own ego. Sowing division. At that point, Lucifer has won.
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I just wanted to briefly address this ^ "option" [in bold ^ ] (provided it takes place that way).
My view is that, in this case (and perhaps some of the other viewpoints, but especially this one... so let's pretend for a minute that this is the one...), while we can "auto scratch off the other two and just ignore them," I don't believe "that's the end of that".
I believe that "what we've said today [in this present age]" will have great IMPACT on those who will continue on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture/The Departure," and this is no small thing... rather, it is of GREAT consequence TO THEM
(and *this* is MY concern, when I personally am discussing such a Subject on these Discussion Boards... not merely believers/Christians existing today [who will indeed experience/participate in the Rapture, in the event that it should occur in the next few moments--THESE folks (of today) I am not so concerned with... but those folks who FOLLOW on, on the earth, here to experience the trib yrs because they weren't saved yet at the time it happens... what we share NOW *does* affect THEM then, and I take that responsibility very seriously... rather than to think to myself, "welp, some of us were *right* and now that THAT'S over, let's get on with the *party!* dancin' in the streets of gold!"
No... there's more to it than that, and that is, "how [what we say NOW] will affect THOSE ppl THEN" (it's not all about US--meaning, these "discussions" , or this specific Subject in particular)]
On that point ^ (in bold), consider a post I made in a different thread, not long ago:
Post #142 (different thread) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4438835
[quoting]
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. [...<snip>...]"
[end quoting small excerpt; more at link]
____________
I believe the Subject of "eschatology" (in Scripture) is just like any other Subject (in Scripture)... but we don't say, "any interpretation could be right" (at least on most all of those *other* Subjects), so that there's actually no sense in preaching ANYTHING *in there* as "definite TRUTH" coz it's all a matter of interpreting it in any way each person prefers, thus we come to a myriad of conclusions, but never coming to any one "meaning" (what was meant by the author/Author). Pointless, unless one simply likes to waste other's time, or something (like, say, by preaching a sermon in church, or by facilitating a Bible Study, or such like). = )
Just my two cents. Feel free to take it or leave it.
My view is that, in this case (and perhaps some of the other viewpoints, but especially this one... so let's pretend for a minute that this is the one...), while we can "auto scratch off the other two and just ignore them," I don't believe "that's the end of that".
I believe that "what we've said today [in this present age]" will have great IMPACT on those who will continue on the earth FOLLOWING "our Rapture/The Departure," and this is no small thing... rather, it is of GREAT consequence TO THEM
(and *this* is MY concern, when I personally am discussing such a Subject on these Discussion Boards... not merely believers/Christians existing today [who will indeed experience/participate in the Rapture, in the event that it should occur in the next few moments--THESE folks (of today) I am not so concerned with... but those folks who FOLLOW on, on the earth, here to experience the trib yrs because they weren't saved yet at the time it happens... what we share NOW *does* affect THEM then, and I take that responsibility very seriously... rather than to think to myself, "welp, some of us were *right* and now that THAT'S over, let's get on with the *party!* dancin' in the streets of gold!"
No... there's more to it than that, and that is, "how [what we say NOW] will affect THOSE ppl THEN" (it's not all about US--meaning, these "discussions" , or this specific Subject in particular)]On that point ^ (in bold), consider a post I made in a different thread, not long ago:
Post #142 (different thread) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4438835
[quoting]
"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. [...<snip>...]"
[end quoting small excerpt; more at link]
____________
I believe the Subject of "eschatology" (in Scripture) is just like any other Subject (in Scripture)... but we don't say, "any interpretation could be right" (at least on most all of those *other* Subjects), so that there's actually no sense in preaching ANYTHING *in there* as "definite TRUTH" coz it's all a matter of interpreting it in any way each person prefers, thus we come to a myriad of conclusions, but never coming to any one "meaning" (what was meant by the author/Author). Pointless, unless one simply likes to waste other's time, or something (like, say, by preaching a sermon in church, or by facilitating a Bible Study, or such like). = )Just my two cents. Feel free to take it or leave it.
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All good. The real point I was making is the different Rapture types are just speculations, because there is nothing that specifically states it.
Therefore arguing over the different kinds and name calling each other (calling people false teachers for having a different theory unless it is explicitly stated in the Bible) is an exercise in division, because our Unity is in Christ.
It's kind of like trying to predict what play is going to happen to win the Super Bowl and fighting over the different theories built on clues. Kind of pointless, because no matter what we predict it's going to happen as God has decided it will, not us.
I think that's the point I was trying to get across.
Therefore arguing over the different kinds and name calling each other (calling people false teachers for having a different theory unless it is explicitly stated in the Bible) is an exercise in division, because our Unity is in Christ.
It's kind of like trying to predict what play is going to happen to win the Super Bowl and fighting over the different theories built on clues. Kind of pointless, because no matter what we predict it's going to happen as God has decided it will, not us.
I think that's the point I was trying to get across.
A prism is not a bad thing.
Paul said "I see through a glass darkly....."
My prism is the bride/groom dynamic.
The first miracle of Jesus is forever canonized as the first miracle.....at a wedding.
Last and first is interchangeable.
First/ last miracles are wedding settings,wedding dynamics.
IOW heavens prism is wedding,bride,groom,jew.
Bingo
The book of ruth.
Paul said "I see through a glass darkly....."
My prism is the bride/groom dynamic.
The first miracle of Jesus is forever canonized as the first miracle.....at a wedding.
Last and first is interchangeable.
First/ last miracles are wedding settings,wedding dynamics.
IOW heavens prism is wedding,bride,groom,jew.
Bingo
The book of ruth.
So. Since you're the one making the claim that only one view is true, where is the verse that states it explicitly? If you don't have it, you don't have anything other than conjecture based on Scripture, but it's still just conjecture.
You said "You don't have any beliefs."
I believe I stated my beliefs/view on it quite clearly.
All three have valid arguments and are possible, but as it is not explicitly stated, there is no way for us to know until it happen.
Anything else is a guess.
And I'm saying don't be emotionally attached to your guesses or base all of your faith on your interpretation.
The reason I'm not sitting here quoting verses at you is because the discussion is about ruling out which possibilities are the likely one by watching as they unfold and having an open mind to other interpretations. In other words, the discussion is about thought process and how bashing others for having a different view than you on something that is not explicitly stated is counter productive to the faith.
God knows all.
Humans do not. We can guess but in the end what unfolds demonstrates what matters.
But sure. Go ahead. Gloat and taunt all you want man, that's pretty un-Christ like.
God bless and hope you have a nice day.
You said "You don't have any beliefs."
I believe I stated my beliefs/view on it quite clearly.
All three have valid arguments and are possible, but as it is not explicitly stated, there is no way for us to know until it happen.
Anything else is a guess.
And I'm saying don't be emotionally attached to your guesses or base all of your faith on your interpretation.
The reason I'm not sitting here quoting verses at you is because the discussion is about ruling out which possibilities are the likely one by watching as they unfold and having an open mind to other interpretations. In other words, the discussion is about thought process and how bashing others for having a different view than you on something that is not explicitly stated is counter productive to the faith.
God knows all.
Humans do not. We can guess but in the end what unfolds demonstrates what matters.
But sure. Go ahead. Gloat and taunt all you want man, that's pretty un-Christ like.
God bless and hope you have a nice day.
There is the non negotiables.
Are you calling Christian's that died over the pillars of christian faith "emotionally attached,haughty,unchrislike,bashing others,not having an open mind?
You know,all the things you accuse others of.
You come to me accusing.
Yet you claim to have no opinion or position on the things I am defending.
You have no clue that the postribs I am debating have no open mind,are calling me names,accusing me of following ancient dead men,etc.
Now why do you not bash them also?
You ever took a stand on anything?
You never thought that in a debate there is conviction.?
That is bizarre thinking that nobody should take a position,as if I need permission from you as to departing from your silly neutrality on end times??????
I mean,are you under duress?
Did someone threaten you and force you into this room?
Call me all those names and falsely accuse your brother?
Are you aware of who the accuser of the brethren is ?
Are you calling Christian's that died over the pillars of christian faith "emotionally attached,haughty,unchrislike,bashing others,not having an open mind?
You know,all the things you accuse others of.
You come to me accusing.
Yet you claim to have no opinion or position on the things I am defending.
You have no clue that the postribs I am debating have no open mind,are calling me names,accusing me of following ancient dead men,etc.
Now why do you not bash them also?
You ever took a stand on anything?
You never thought that in a debate there is conviction.?
That is bizarre thinking that nobody should take a position,as if I need permission from you as to departing from your silly neutrality on end times??????
I mean,are you under duress?
Did someone threaten you and force you into this room?
Call me all those names and falsely accuse your brother?
Are you aware of who the accuser of the brethren is ?
""Next scenario: Pre trib does not occur, and we see the actual rise of the BIG antichrist (not the ones referred to as more than one existing, but THE BIG DADDY of antichrists.)""
Do you realize you just committed to /took a stand/took a position,that there will be a future antichrist?
Heaven forbid.
How haughty.
Lol
Do you realize you just committed to /took a stand/took a position,that there will be a future antichrist?
Heaven forbid.
How haughty.
Lol
