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Is this what it says in the greek?
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psalm6819
Guest
Didn't you read Crossnotes #19? That's a proper and sensible word search and correct application. Actually it goes to grammar...
not her spirit reborn but her physical body preserved/or brought safely thru childbirth (and most of the mothers here can tell you
labour is no picnic)
It says she shall be saved through child-bearing. That may be a reference to the individual woman Eve, who received the seed of the woman prophecy which refers to Christ.
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psalm6819
Guest
it says she shall be saved/preserved thru child bearing ummmm having a difficult childbirth can be fatal for a woman
especially in centuries past, it's an ordeal
especially in centuries past, it's an ordeal
If you would go that route, She and they are mentioned in the first
1 Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The seed of the woman and the brusing of Satan are shown through the church
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.
And where it speaks of the two here, making reference to Adam and Eve
Ephes 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Paul says he speaks of these two (using that Genesis reference)
Ephes 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
I wouldnt know how one would work that out in the context
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psychomom
Guest
lol gotta say that's what i was thinking when i first read what crossnote posted!
Maybe I missed someone else saying it, but Psalm6819 seems to be the only one here who isn't trying to dance around giving a definitive answer.
Does this mean she will go to Heaven because she bears children
or
does it mean she will not die giving birth?
Or is it something else, altogether?
I wonder why it is so hard for people here to just say "I don't know."?
Does this mean she will go to Heaven because she bears children
or
does it mean she will not die giving birth?
Or is it something else, altogether?
I wonder why it is so hard for people here to just say "I don't know."?
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The first wrong thing with this thread, is pulling verse 15 out of context! At the very least, you must look at verses 13 & 14, but I will go all the way back to 11 in this post!
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve;14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." 1 Tim. 2:13-15
"Ἀδὰμ γὰρ πρῶτος ἐπλάσθη, εἶτα Εὕα·14 καὶ Ἀδὰμ οὐκ ἠπατήθη, ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐξαπατηθεῖσα ἐν παραβάσει γέγονεν.15 σωθήσεται δὲ διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, ἐὰν μείνωσιν ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ καὶ ἁγιασμῷ μετὰ σωφροσύνης." 1 Tim. 12:13-15 Greek
As you can see, in verse 15, there is actually no noun or pronoun as the subject of the sentence. Instead, it is contained within the verb, σωθήσεται or sothasetaia which is in 3rd person singular.
σωθήσεται is a Future Indicative Passive which is usually translated as "she" in reference to the singular form of the verb. So therefore, who is "saved" or "delivered" or "rescued" by (or through or "on account of") by childbearing?
She is specific, and refers to ONE woman, and in context, that woman is Eve. That is who Paul was talking about.
In addition, it is important to look at the prepositional phrase modifying "saved." Through childbearing, διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, or dia tes teknogonias also points to a reference to the birth of the Saviour, through use of the definite article - tes, in the genitive case.
So it seems to me that the first clause in verse 15, is referring back to Eve - whose progeny would bruise the serpent's head. In other words - the Messiah! Plus verse 16 in Genesis 3, the next verse, brings us back to the pain of childbearing.
"I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.
To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.” Genesis 3:15-16
So one thing that I don't agree is being translated correctly in English is missing the "the" in "the childbearing." And it does make a big difference.
However, that being said, I do think that the use of "the childbearing" is a rather of obscure way of referring to the birth of Christ. Neither Mary nor Christ are named here, and elsewhere, Scripture emphasizes the death and not the birth of Christ as the means of salvation. Also, the next clause, or protasis, "if they continue..." does not seem related to the coming of Christ and still stands as a condition to women's salvation.
The next problem, is that there is an unusual change from the singular form of the first verb in verse 15 "she shall be saved" to the plural form of the next verb "if they continue." Meinosin μείνωσιν is a present indicative subjunctive verb, 3rd person singular. Meno or μένω can mean, "live, remain, abide, or in a lesser use, a person or thing continues in the same state." It is the subjunctive, because it is used with "ean," which is the start of a 3rd class conditional sentence, present general. This means that it states a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth about the statement is timeless.
This verse shifts from the specific (Eve and the pain of childbearing) to the general. Further, the last part of verse 15 has a familiar ring in the literature of the Pastoral Letters. "Faith" (pistis) is occurs 33 times, "love" (agape) occurs 10 times, and "self control" (sophrosyne) once with related words from the same root appearing 8 times. "Holiness" (hagiasmos) does not appear elsewhere in the letters, though the idea of godliness is frequent.
These are NOT good works qualities, but qualities that mark a believer. This forms an appropriate conclusion to this particular chapter, with its emphasis on the demeanour expected of Christians in this world - both men and women.
In conclusion, verse 15 fits well with verse 14, and its reference to Eve as showing that the Seed of the woman made salvation possible. It accords with the need for women to avoid false teachers and to ignore teachings against marriage. (1 Tim. 4:3) and instead to live normal lives, bearing children (if "the childbirth" has a primary or even secondary reference to that!). This does not demean women or confine them to the home, for Paul taught earlier in the chapter (1 Tim. 2:11) that women are to learn.
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve;14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control." 1 Tim. 2:13-15
"Ἀδὰμ γὰρ πρῶτος ἐπλάσθη, εἶτα Εὕα·14 καὶ Ἀδὰμ οὐκ ἠπατήθη, ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐξαπατηθεῖσα ἐν παραβάσει γέγονεν.15 σωθήσεται δὲ διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, ἐὰν μείνωσιν ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ καὶ ἁγιασμῷ μετὰ σωφροσύνης." 1 Tim. 12:13-15 Greek
As you can see, in verse 15, there is actually no noun or pronoun as the subject of the sentence. Instead, it is contained within the verb, σωθήσεται or sothasetaia which is in 3rd person singular.
σωθήσεται is a Future Indicative Passive which is usually translated as "she" in reference to the singular form of the verb. So therefore, who is "saved" or "delivered" or "rescued" by (or through or "on account of") by childbearing?
She is specific, and refers to ONE woman, and in context, that woman is Eve. That is who Paul was talking about.
In addition, it is important to look at the prepositional phrase modifying "saved." Through childbearing, διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, or dia tes teknogonias also points to a reference to the birth of the Saviour, through use of the definite article - tes, in the genitive case.
So it seems to me that the first clause in verse 15, is referring back to Eve - whose progeny would bruise the serpent's head. In other words - the Messiah! Plus verse 16 in Genesis 3, the next verse, brings us back to the pain of childbearing.
"I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.
To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.” Genesis 3:15-16
So one thing that I don't agree is being translated correctly in English is missing the "the" in "the childbearing." And it does make a big difference.
However, that being said, I do think that the use of "the childbearing" is a rather of obscure way of referring to the birth of Christ. Neither Mary nor Christ are named here, and elsewhere, Scripture emphasizes the death and not the birth of Christ as the means of salvation. Also, the next clause, or protasis, "if they continue..." does not seem related to the coming of Christ and still stands as a condition to women's salvation.
The next problem, is that there is an unusual change from the singular form of the first verb in verse 15 "she shall be saved" to the plural form of the next verb "if they continue." Meinosin μείνωσιν is a present indicative subjunctive verb, 3rd person singular. Meno or μένω can mean, "live, remain, abide, or in a lesser use, a person or thing continues in the same state." It is the subjunctive, because it is used with "ean," which is the start of a 3rd class conditional sentence, present general. This means that it states a general truth, an axiomatic truth. The subjunctive is appropriate because the truth about the statement is timeless.
This verse shifts from the specific (Eve and the pain of childbearing) to the general. Further, the last part of verse 15 has a familiar ring in the literature of the Pastoral Letters. "Faith" (pistis) is occurs 33 times, "love" (agape) occurs 10 times, and "self control" (sophrosyne) once with related words from the same root appearing 8 times. "Holiness" (hagiasmos) does not appear elsewhere in the letters, though the idea of godliness is frequent.
These are NOT good works qualities, but qualities that mark a believer. This forms an appropriate conclusion to this particular chapter, with its emphasis on the demeanour expected of Christians in this world - both men and women.
In conclusion, verse 15 fits well with verse 14, and its reference to Eve as showing that the Seed of the woman made salvation possible. It accords with the need for women to avoid false teachers and to ignore teachings against marriage. (1 Tim. 4:3) and instead to live normal lives, bearing children (if "the childbirth" has a primary or even secondary reference to that!). This does not demean women or confine them to the home, for Paul taught earlier in the chapter (1 Tim. 2:11) that women are to learn.
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RobbyEarl
Guest
When I started studying Greek I realized that it was all Greek to me. Why do I need to know Greek? It is Christ and Him Crucified it is the same in English and French and German and Swahili. If I place my faith in the work of the Cross and confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ I am saved. No matter if it is in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic It is the same.
I agree with you totally. The basics of how to be saved, and how to follow Christ, have been pretty much captured in most translations. I have read the Bible in French and Spanish, too - same God, same message.
The problem with translations, is that translators have biases. That means that someone can actually translate the Bible to say something different than God and the original writers said.
"The New World Translation" by Jehovah's Witnesses comes to mind! They translate things to show that Christ was not God, or maybe was a lesser god, or something. Although I did know a woman who came out of the JW's and was able to use their translation to show that Jesus was God.
Another example when I was exploring this verse, just reading translations, was the HCSB actually gets the verb in the second half of 1 Tim. 2:15 wrong! I was surprised, after finding their translation of the Lord's Prayer in Matt 6 to be much closer to the Greek. But, HCSB is a publication of Lifeway, which is a very conservative, and complimentarian denomination. So maybe they thought that changing the plural verb meaning "they continued" to "she continued" better represented what their viewpoint was? Or maybe not! I was just surprised to see such a giant error, esp. because none of the other versions I checked did that.
So theology is the big issue! Too many people want to start new churches, based on questionable doctrine they have gotten by a misreading of a translation, even if the translator was spot in the way the Greek and Hebrew was translated.
Greek and Hebrew both have different grammar, verb forms, voices and ways of saying things that we do in English, for example. Some things are untranslatable. So the translators have to fudge things to make them work in English. Syntax is another big issue - Greek has a completely different word order, in some cases, than English. But a knowledge of noun/adjective cases help us sort through those differences.
Then there is the fact, that no word is exactly translatable into any other language. The cultural nuances and differences often do not come through.
I'm in the middle of my second year of Master's level, seminary Greek. It is a challenge, but I do not understand how someone could exegete any passage of the Bible, without a good knowledge of the original languages. It is just like turning a light on when you dig deep into reading the NT in Greek, or the OT in Hebrew. And unless you have done it, you really have no objectivity as to the difference it makes to know the Greek.
I do not know the exact reason this OP asked this question about this verse, but I am quite sure she had good reasons to try and get what the original language said. Really, context in English, and a knowledge of the OT could probably have settled the question, though!
For me, I will continue to learn and grow, as I read the Bible in various languages. Always remembering that it is the Holy Spirit that guides and motivates me on my journey.
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RobbyEarl
Guest
Exactly it Chimese. why do we make it so difficult? A five year old can understand it. But we so want to be self righteous we come up with all these rules and traditions and fads. How are those prayer shawls working out? Did that word of faith come to pass? Have you sinned since you were baptized in water? Find the old path, the path that they say no longer works. But they give no new path, The path is to accept everything and call Haters who love them, to call those who preach the truth haters, that is the new path. Broad is the path and wide is the way that leads to destruction but narrow is the way that leads to everlasting life.
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RobbyEarl
Guest
Thats okay you Love God right and you have accepted Him as your Savior, if so then trust in Him and be lead by His Spirit and study to show yourself approved. God bless you and keep you and prosper the works of your hands. Spell that in Greek LOL
You should read the whole sentence - "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner, but she will be saved..."
There is no place in New Testament, where sinner is preserved, only saved. Your explanation does not fit in.
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bikerchaz
Guest
Sorry Pamella, my answer was trying to motivate you to be able to learn for yourself LOL.
I do think and feel within me that Paul had a few issues with women in general, not aversely, but enough to effect his writing, so in his advise to the churches and to Timothy he says some of his words were "my own".
In the writings of Paul, he does go on a bit about "silly women" and "diverse lusts" a few times, and I feel the act of procreation was a bit of a 'thing' for him. He tends toward the scenario that men can handle there faith in the Lord better than women which we all know is not the case.
I feel his words within the context of this letter to Timothy, were a fatherly warning to Timothy, to be on his guard. Timothy was quite young and we can presume a nice catch for some young lady somewhere, but Paul had his eye on the Kingdom and on Timothy running his race without the encumbrance of a partner.
Paul goes on about this quite a bit, and some have stayed celibate because of his words. He dances round the act of procreation here, by stating "bearing of children", but then comes back to the real crux of it all "faith and love" and within the unity of a marriage "sanctity with self restraint".
Paul has a lot of advice within his writings abut sexual sin and its connotations and consequences for us and how we should behave. He does not want a "hint" of it to be around us, he wants us to realise the seriousness of it's subtlety as a tool of the enemy which can fool even the most holy soul, and how it can be a snare to any one who does not Keep Jesus very close.
We all have to continue in "faith and love" and if we are married, in "sanctity, with self restraint" so not to show the world anything that can bring the 'way' into disrepute.
Yours in Jesus.
Is this better willie-T?
I know that this is the end of what is being said at the beginning of Paul talking about women being quite in the church. Cultures play a role. I have heard that the congregations were segregated, at least in the Chorinthian church, tho this is the Ephesians church. The same or not I don't know. But if it is, then the women were supposedly shouting to their husbands across the room when they didn't understand something because of their lack of education. I guess boisterous was cultural. Now why did I quote this. Well, my answer has nothing to do with what I said above, but I thought it was educational.
I use the nasb, which is regarded as 'most literal', tho no bible translation is perfect.
The third point in the quote above kind of struck me into thinking maybe on this earth, he thought their character would be saved, by getting this responsibility having children, along with self restraint. As he talked about somewhere else how he wanted widows to bear children, keep house, and give enemy no occassion for reproach, as some have already turned aside to follow Satan as they jumped around from house to house, gossiping and talking about things not proper to mention.
Just a thought.
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Hi. I dont know about the church in Corinth, but when Paul writes a letter to Timotheus, he speaks generally:
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. (1 Timothy 2:12)
I think we should not be too quick to invalidate New testament verses by saying its only cultural, if it is rooted in some theological presuppositions like Paul is making (the fall of Adam and Eve).
Yes, Paul is certainly taking a conservative attitude when talking about the role of women. But he also said, that its better for (both man and woman) to stay in celibacy and to work for the kingdom of God. Thats why I think that Paul was talking about the saving of the role of women after they made humanity to fall. It was woman, who was the cause of it, but it was also woman, who gave birth to the Saviour. Through that childbearing is the "guilt" of women undone.
Cant that be?
Also just a thought.
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Hi. I dont know about the church in Corinth, but when Paul writes a letter to Timotheus, he speaks generally:
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. (1 Timothy 2:12)
I think we should not be too quick to invalidate New testament verses by saying its only cultural, if it is rooted in some theological presuppositions like Paul is making (the fall of Adam and Eve).
Yes, Paul is certainly taking a conservative attitude when talking about the role of women. But he also said, that its better for (both man and woman) to stay in celibacy and to work for the kingdom of God. Thats why I think that Paul was talking about the saving of the role of women after they made humanity to fall. It was woman, who was the cause of it, but it was also woman, who gave birth to the Saviour. Through that childbearing is the "guilt" of women undone.
Cant that be?
Hi. Thankyou for your reply.
I was talking about cultural being the way they were loud.
Actually, tho, in a church setting nowadays, you wouldn't think it even appropriate for a man to be interupptive while the pastor was giving a speech. I firmly do not believe a woman is expected to be quite before and after the actual service started. They would be deprived of fellowship, edification, etc. Seriously, that is just plain mean. So, since they were segregated, and she 'wished to learn something', the whole problem was, some were probably waving their husbands down and interupptive the service. The men weren't as they knew what was going on because some of the things talked about could have only been understood thru an education.
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