Isaac , Ismael and muhamad

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Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#1
Well in the midle east there has been much controversy of Israel as we see the latest bombings but my reason for posting is to bring up a discusion on birthright of possession of israel , muslims claim they have the right but they claim this from Muhammad but as we know the birthright went to issac and as a result ismael was banished away from the tribe .so in my perspective and knowledge of torah . Muhammad was a false prophet because Muhammad went against the wishes of Abraham .what are your thoughts ?
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
9,150
4,950
113
#2
Well in the midle east there has been much controversy of Israel as we see the latest bombings but my reason for posting is to bring up a discusion on birthright of possession of israel , muslims claim they have the right but they claim this from Muhammad but as we know the birthright went to issac and as a result ismael was banished away from the tribe .so in my perspective and knowledge of torah . Muhammad was a false prophet because Muhammad went against the wishes of Abraham .what are your thoughts ?
No. Muhammad was a false prophet because he taught a "gospel" other than Christ crucified, died and resurrected, for the forgiveness of my sins and yours.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
5,624
113
#3
Mohammad was a false prophet because he denied Yahweh The God of Israel/ Jesus Christ his son and The Holy Spirit.
He was a false prophet because he prophesied by a lying anti-Christ spirit and drew worship to a different god.
He falsely claimed to be of the same line of prophets as Moses & Jesus and to seal up prophecy.

Descendants of Ishmael are invited to salvation by Abraham's covenant of faith through Messiah Jesus just as all Gentiles are.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,721
13,394
113
#4
Regardless of the claims made, this current dispute really has little to do with ancient land claims or promises. Rather, it is rooted in some shady and convoluted early-20th-century events, stubborn jingoism, and generations of intolerance.

In other words, sin.
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
39
48
#5
The ancient claim was false based on tradition as it violates abrahams wishes muhammad is clearly a false prophet and all that follow him go into the way of error in fact if they were truly honoring GOD as they said they were they would serve alongside israel.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,485
12,950
113
#6
...my reason for posting is to bring up a discusion on birthright of possession of israel...
The Bible is very clear that God gave the land of Canaan to Israel for eternity. Ishmael was given the land of Arabia. However, because of the sin, disobedience, and unbelief of the Israelites and the Jews, they were never in full possession of all the land given to them. But that will change after the Second Coming of Christ.

After 70 AD (and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans) the Jews were dispossessed of this land, and dispersed to the far corners of the earth. Since then the Arabs and Muslims (since not all Muslims are Arabs) claimed that the land was theirs, but that was not really the case. The Crusaders (from the 11th to the 13th centuries) tried to remove the Arabs and Muslims from Palestine but did not succeed.

Palestine eventually became a part of the Ottoman Empire. However that came to an end in 1922: "At the start of World War I, the Ottoman Empire was already in decline. The Ottoman army entered the war in 1914 on the side of the Central Powers (including Germany and Austria-Hungary) and were defeated in October 1918. Following the Armistice of Mudros, most Ottoman territories were divided between Britain, France, Greece and Russia."(from History.com)

Eventually Palestine became a British Protectorate, and it was the British government that gave the Zionists what is now Israel. But the Zionist Movement enabled Russian and European Jews to take possession of only a portion of Palestine, and establish Israel in 1948. As a result there has been constant conflict between Arabs and Jews for the last 70 years .

What is happening right now in Palestine is a direct result of the treachery and treason of Joe Biden, who wants to help Iran destroy Israel (through Hamas or directly through nuclear devices). But God's hand has been over Israel (in spite of their unbelief in Christ) and had Israel finished the job in 1967 (the Six Day War) there would be no Palestine and no Hamas or Hezbollah today.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,492
113
#7
The ancient claim was false based on tradition as it violates abrahams wishes muhammad is clearly a false prophet and all that follow him go into the way of error in fact if they were truly honoring GOD as they said they were they would serve alongside israel.
Serve Alongside Israel?

Who does National Ethnic Israel Serve, They Rejected Jesus Christ The Messiah?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#8
The Bible is very clear that God gave the land of Canaan to Israel for eternity. I.
n The Lord very clearly defined Israel. “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” (Romans 2:28, 29)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,485
12,950
113
#9
n The Lord very clearly defined Israel. “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” (Romans 2:28, 29)
Are you denying that God gave the land of Canaan to Israel for eternity? Since you make a big deal of the Torah, how come that you are denying what is in the Torah?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#10
Are you denying that God gave the land of Canaan to Israel for eternity? Since you make a big deal of the Torah, how come that you are denying what is in the Torah?
I do believe the Torah is scripture breathed by our Holy Creator and is truth. That belief is scorned by most Christians. The entire Torah is an accurate outline of Christ and the kingdom of heaven and we are to study it to understand the fulfillment that Christ was of all the old testament tells us. It is a very unpopular belief. As we are told who true Israel is in many scriptures, we are to learn about the true Israel as we study the outline, the sahdow, given in the old testament.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,485
12,950
113
#11
As we are told who true Israel is in many scriptures, we are to learn about the true Israel as we study the outline, the shadow, given in the old testament.
In the King James Bible here is what is stated: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What was the reason for this comment and how should it be interpreted? Should it also be used to nullify God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding the twelve tribes?

The entire second chapter of Romans is addressed to Jews, particularly those who believed that they were religious and keeping the commandments. But they were focused on the outward ceremonies and rituals, without carefully examining what was within the heart. And God is more concerned with the heart than with outward appearances and rituals.

The Pharisees were the epitome of strict Torah observance, going even as far as tithing mint and cumin (herbs). But they were not right with God. They were boasting of the Ten Commandments, but breaking them at the same time.

In view of this Paul defined the meaning of a true Jew. That person would be one who had repented and been converted. One who had been born again. Therefore he would have a new heart and a new spirit.

But this passage was not meant to nullify the Abrahamic Covenant as applicable to the land of Israel. Paul makes it perfectly clear in Romans 11 that at the Second Coming of Christ, "all Israel shall be saved". Since we know that only one-third of all the Jews in the world will be saved at that time, his meaning would be that every tribe belonging to Israel shall be saved. And this is confirmed in Ezekiel 48 where all twelve tribes are shown as dwelling in the land of Greater Israel.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#12
In the King James Bible here is what is stated: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What was the reason for this comment and how should it be interpreted? Should it also be used to nullify God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob regarding the twelve tribes?

The entire second chapter of Romans is addressed to Jews, particularly those who believed that they were religious and keeping the commandments. But they were focused on the outward ceremonies and rituals, without carefully examining what was within the heart. And God is more concerned with the heart than with outward appearances and rituals.

The Pharisees were the epitome of strict Torah observance, going even as far as tithing mint and cumin (herbs). But they were not right with God. They were boasting of the Ten Commandments, but breaking them at the same time.

In view of this Paul defined the meaning of a true Jew. That person would be one who had repented and been converted. One who had been born again. Therefore he would have a new heart and a new spirit.

But this passage was not meant to nullify the Abrahamic Covenant as applicable to the land of Israel. Paul makes it perfectly clear in Romans 11 that at the Second Coming of Christ, "all Israel shall be saved". Since we know that only one-third of all the Jews in the world will be saved at that time, his meaning would be that every tribe belonging to Israel shall be saved. And this is confirmed in Ezekiel 48 where all twelve tribes are shown as dwelling in the land of Greater Israel.
To the lord there are no Jews and gentiles, there are human beings. God uses symbols to explain Himself to us, but if we get so caught up in the symbols we lose track of that it is the lord who is teaching us, we miss the entire point.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.