Jehovah’s Witnesses

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williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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Probably not a good idea, but sooner or later he has to take a stand on the Bible version issue. So does everyone. This issue has divided Christians unnecessarily and the modern versions have done a lot of harm.
That was Rudolf Kittel, a scholar who basically corrupted the Old Testament. All the critical texts now turn to Kittel's Biblia Hebraica for their OT rather than to the traditional Masoretic Text. As to the NIV it is clearly a corrupt paraphrase.
Textual criticism has been a practice for thousands of years; it is not some “new” innovation. Erasmus did it; Beza did it; Origen did it; Jerome did it; Eusebius did it; Ireneaus did it; and even the Masoretes (counter-missionary Jewish scribes that brought us the Masoretic text) did it. In fact, the Masoretes are the ones who introduced vowel pointing into the OT. For example, in Ps. 22:16 (in order to mitigate against the crucifixion of the Messiah) the Masoretic text reads, “For dogs have encircled me, an evil congregation surrounded me; like a lion my hands and my feet.” Why doesn't the KJV follow the Masoretic text? The words for “pierced” and “lion” are similar, but what differentiates them is an upright vowel stroke inserted by the Masoretes.

It is not “modern versions” that have done harm. Rather, it is people who are setting up untrue presuppositions, thereby, setting people up for failure. If you'd stop with the false presuppositions, then people would not be set up for the dissapointment. So just who is the guilty party?
 

Flannery

Active member
Mar 20, 2023
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Textual criticism has been a practice for thousands of years; it is not some “new” innovation. Erasmus did it; Beza did it; Origen did it; Jerome did it; Eusebius did it; Ireneaus did it; and even the Masoretes (counter-missionary Jewish scribes that brought us the Masoretic text) did it. In fact, the Masoretes are the ones who introduced vowel pointing into the OT. For example, in Ps. 22:16 (in order to mitigate against the crucifixion of the Messiah) the Masoretic text reads, “For dogs have encircled me, an evil congregation surrounded me; like a lion my hands and my feet.” Why doesn't the KJV follow the Masoretic text? The words for “pierced” and “lion” are similar, but what differentiates them is an upright vowel stroke inserted by the Masoretes.

It is not “modern versions” that have done harm. Rather, it is people who are setting up untrue presuppositions, thereby, setting people up for failure. If you'd stop with the false presuppositions, then people would not be set up for the dissapointment. So just who is the guilty party?
There's no way to translate a writing without also saying something about it. Thought goes into that.
 

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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Thursday 3-30-23 5th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle Nisan 7, 5783 11th. Spring Day

John 7

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?

26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.

28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.

31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

43 So there was a division among the people because of him.

44 And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.

45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?

46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.

47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?

48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?

49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)

51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

53 And every man went unto his own house.

Love, Walter and Debbie
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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And about Jesus is GOD, some of it is in the search, well after Jesus said that God is a spirit, and the Angel Gabriel said to Mary He shall be called the Son of the highest, I had believed that for a while, but now we have learned that He is both Lord and Christ from different the scriptures.
This is a little confusing. Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you deny the trinity? Dankenbring was nontrinitarian if I'm not mistaken.
 

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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This is a little confusing. Do you believe Jesus is God?
I believe that GOD is a Spirit, just like Jesus has Said, and I believe that Jesus is The Son Of The Living GOD,
Dankenbring was nontrinitarian if I'm not mistaken.
with the understanding that I do have he was not a trinitarian,

Also, I found that Christians would have to search the scriptures for themselves because there is only one true doctrine.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I believe that GOD is a Spirit, just like Jesus has Said, and I believe that Jesus is The Son Of The Living GOD,

with the understanding that I do have he was not a trinitarian,

Also, I found that Christians would have to search the scriptures for themselves because there is only one true doctrine.

The Watch Tower is not scripture; in fact, their made version of the Bible has no known publisher. Why? Because they could not pass the standard required to make a version of the Bible.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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I believe that GOD is a Spirit, just like Jesus has Said, and I believe that Jesus is The Son Of The Living GOD,

with the understanding that I do have he was not a trinitarian,

Also, I found that Christians would have to search the scriptures for themselves because there is only one true doctrine.
The Church of God 7th day is nontrinitatian. That's what you are isn't it?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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No, I'm a Christian
But you're also a disciple of William Dankenbring who was Church of God. Your webpage says: "My Church or Organization." And when you click, it shows a picture of Dankenbring; and you told me once you're affiliated with his organization, Triumph Prophetic Ministries. https://firstthings1sttab.tripod.com/id4.html

You're clearly nontrinitarian. All you will say is Jesus is God's "son." Let me ask you something. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person, or is He merely "God's power?"
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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What do the Watch Tower Have to do with what I said?

First off, JW's don't believe in the Concept of the Trinity. Which is the organization is known as "Watch Tower". Founder Charles Taze Russell in `1881.

They have no issue with calling Jesus a "son of God". They call Satan, Michael, sons of god too.

They believe Te Christ is a created being just like the angels I listed.

JW's deny the deity of Christ and that HE is God, which makes them a theological Cult, and have the spirit of "anti-christ".

Their teaching should be avoided at all costs by Christians Unless the Lord Leads you to speak with them.
 

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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First off, JW's don't believe in the Concept of the Trinity. Which is the organization is known as "Watch Tower". Founder Charles Taze Russell in `1881.

They have no issue with calling Jesus a "son of God". They call Satan, Michael, sons of god too.

They believe Te Christ is a created being just like the angels I listed.

JW's deny the deity of Christ and that HE is God, which makes them a theological Cult, and have the spirit of "anti-christ".

Their teaching should be avoided at all costs by Christians Unless the Lord Leads you to speak with them.
I'm not a J.W.Witness I'm a Christian
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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This article is about what was taught by William Dankenbring's (WD) Triumph Prophetic Ministries (TPM). As with my other articles on various Churches Of God (COG), this article focused on how TPM differs from the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) under Herbert W. Armstrong (HWA) and/or groups who held similar doctrines, such as the Continuing Church of God. My comments (most of which will be in italics) are not intended as an exhaustive rebuttal of TPM's/WD's comments/positions but mainly to point out how TPM/WD differs.

William Dankenbring, himself, died on August 29, 2017, around 1:00 pm. The cause seems to have been of congestive heart failure and renal failure.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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I believe that The Holy Spirit is GOD's Power.
The Holy Spirit is a DISTINCT divine person, who certainly manifests the power of God. But He is not merely "God's power". How do you lie to a mere inanimate power? But Ananias and Sapphira lied to God (a person). But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts 5:3)
 

Walter

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Jul 20, 2022
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The Holy Spirit is a DISTINCT divine person, who certainly manifests the power of God. But He is not merely "God's power". How do you lie to a mere inanimate power? But Ananias and Sapphira lied to God (a person). But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts 5:3)
You are saying this because of your belief, and I said what I believe.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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A couple times a month, JW’s come to visit the industrial estate where I work. They’re always welcoming and we always have a healthy debate, but everytime I ask the question why they don’t believe Jesus is God they stop talking and direct me to their website.
I can’t understand how someone who reads the same scriptures that we do, does not believe that Jesus is Lord? Or are they reading different scripture? As they’re trying to convert me, I offer counterpoints to make them think about what they believe. I’m not bashing JW’s. I just can’t fathom how you can read the same book, but come to a different conclusion of who/what God is. Thoughts?
Their Bible is purposely mistranslated concerning Jesus being God. They get their interpretations from their literatures.

Print out Bowman's out line on the Trinity from Scripture and give them a copy each. https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf https://irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity google The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity: An Outline Study