Jesus, before becoming a man

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SpeakTruth101

Active member
Aug 14, 2023
874
186
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#82
"I desire mercy and not sacrifice"

No awards for the most theologically correct.
Matthew 9:13, “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering. For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”

Matthew 12:7, “And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering,’ you would not have condemned the blameless."

Hosea 6:6, “For I delight in loving-commitment and not sacrifice, and in the knowledge of Yah more than ascending offerings.”

Proverbs 21:3, 3 To do righteousness and right-ruling Is more acceptable to יהוה than a sacrifice."

Isaiah 1:11, “Of what use to Me are your many sacrifice?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of ascending offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats."

1 Samuel 15:22, “Then Shemu’ĕl said, “Does יהוה delight in ascending offerings and sacrifice, as in obeying the voice of יהוה? Look, to obey is better than a sacrifice, to heed is better than the fat of rams."
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,745
29,104
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#83
behoovingly informative!
It did behoove me to add that .:D:giggle:

And of course there are many other verses which speak of God's right hand or His arm/s etc.

Some call this anthropomorphizing, but I believe they do at least mostly all refer to Jesus Christ .:)
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#84
'I was just reviewing the Hebrew and I just want to point out H3050

Isaiah 12:2, 2 “See, Ěl is my deliverance (H3444), I trust and am not afraid. For Yah (H3050), יהוה (H3068), is my strength and my song; and He has become my deliverance(H3444).”
Such an amazing awesome verse and one of the only verses in some English translations that allowed a transliteration for His Name. The YAH next to YHVH must have made the translators change their rules regarding His Name. H3444 is Yeshua or a variation of His Name and where His Name is from and means.

a more literal translation using the KJV as the basis could be.

Behold, EL(H410) is my salvation/Yeshua(H3444); I will trust, and not be afraid: for YAH YHVH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation/Yeshua(H3444).

Trying to understand His actual Titles and Names used in Scripture reveals so much more. Thank you both for this verse and what you pointed out.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#85
Also, not to repeat something concerning His Name that has already been said before. YAH means and is the sound of Eternal. It is sounding in His creation everywhere all the time, from the smallest particles to the vast cosmos. YHVH the first syllable is YAH. The last syllable is VAH as in tsVAH H6680 which means command or authoritative Word. Also the word mitsVAH H4687 which means commandments.

So His Holy Name YHVH means Eternal Word.
 
Aug 27, 2023
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#86
Also, not to repeat something concerning His Name that has already been said before. YAH means and is the sound of Eternal. It is sounding in His creation everywhere all the time, from the smallest particles to the vast cosmos. YHVH the first syllable is YAH. The last syllable is VAH as in tsVAH H6680 which means command or authoritative Word. Also the word mitsVAH H4687 which means commandments.

So His Holy Name YHVH means Eternal Word.
Pretty cool.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,101
2,138
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#88
Agreed… But the fact that non
I'm not sure and can only guess at your note that you might've decided to abandon the thought rather than finish it? I'm going assuming you began to say, "But the fact that none are above Him." And this is truth. Yet, He did come as our Lamb as much as coming as much as He came as our High Priest.
My gospel message campaign to any who will listen has been something like, "You do know that Jesus came as a Lamb so that we could kill Him, right? That was the only way that would have ever been possible...However, when next He comes again...."
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,101
2,138
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#89
.



The Word per John 1:1-3 didn't exist as the flesh per John 1:14 till he was
conceived per Luke 1:26-35.


It is a relatively simple task to show that the Word's flesh descended from
Adam so I can be certain in my own mind that the Word's existence as a
man didn't begin before he created one in the first chapter of Genesis.
_
Have you ever considered the possibility of the Word's ability to manifest retroactivity?
I.e., "in which He appeared to the souls in prison, who were disobedient in the days of Noah."
 
Aug 27, 2023
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#90
I'm not sure and can only guess at your note that you might've decided to abandon the thought rather than finish it? I'm going assuming you began to say, "But the fact that none are above Him." And this is truth. Yet, He did come as our Lamb as much as coming as much as He came as our High Priest.
My gospel message campaign to any who will listen has been something like, "You do know that Jesus came as a Lamb so that we could kill Him, right? That was the only way that would have ever been possible...However, when next He comes again...."
To the contrary, can thought be abandoned? You can abandon any action henceforth, but the thought, has already been cemented…Anyhow; I’m new to the sight and still adjusting. A short synopsis of my position, is Jesus has many titles, because he plays many roles. My mom was my mother, she was also married to my dad, which makes her a wife, and she was a secretary in the working environment. Three different roles, same person.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,101
2,138
113
#91
To the contrary, can thought be abandoned? You can abandon any action henceforth, but the thought, has already been cemented…Anyhow; I’m new to the sight and still adjusting. A short synopsis of my position, is Jesus has many titles, because he plays many roles. My mom was my mother, she was also married to my dad, which makes her a wife, and she was a secretary in the working environment. Three different roles, same person.
Yes, I saw that you just joined recently. Welcome to CC!

Much thanks for the introduction to your thoughts on the topic. I had considered the same position as adoptable at one time but Jesus speaking of Himself in the third person for some reason wouldn't settle right with me. For example, if I spoke of myself in the third person (and I realize that there are those that do this) you would probably think there is something just a little off about me wouldn't you, even though you might not be able to pinpoint exactly what it is? But I couldn't blame you if you did, because I can't really step outside of myself, as much as I might wish to, nor do I think Jesus ever stepped out of Himself to temporarily 'not be God' so that He could be man. And this is not without acknowledging that Jesus is called "everlasting father, prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6). However, I see His fatherhood in regard to us as distinct from the Father's (Who adopts us as a groom's father adopt's his wife as his child). Imo, the regard to Jesus' distinction as everlasting father to us can be illustrated in how a seed falls to the ground and sprouts up into a tree and generates new seed of its kind. And, hopefully, that helps to illustrate my perspective.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
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#92
Based on your knowledge of the bible, what do you know about Jesus before He became a man and was given the name Jesus?

Was He inactive or proactive in revealing the Godhead to God's creation?

Please explain in some detail, not looking for a yes or no response here. The reason for the question is to expand our knowledge and appreciation of the Godhead.
I did a blog on this subject, and you can find it Here
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,823
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#93
I know what you mean - and, that you mean well - this is just a clarification for edification...

It is incorrect to say that the Word "was speaking" - God was speaking - the Word is the speaking - the 'Word of God'.

For a more detailed explanation, please read the opening/original post of this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...of-god-word-father-son-and-the-trinity.72792/
You stated the following.

So then - the Word is "the complete total-sum full living manifestation of the outward expression of God to His creation"...
Phillipians 8:6
Who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

So the question is; what did Jesus empty Himself of, given, He is the total-sum, full, living, manifestation of...God?
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#94
Here is what the BLB has for the word kenoo G2758. They even provided a disclaimer as there must be some disagreement about the meaning of the word in how it is used in the verse.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 5x
The KJV translates Strong's G2758 in the following manner: make void (2x), make of none effect (1x), make of no reputation (1x), be in vain (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to empty, make empty
    1. of Christ, he laid aside equality with or the form of God.
      BLB Note: The Outline of Biblical Usage for κενοω is taken directly from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon. The statement that Christ "laid aside equality with or the form of God" is confusing and erroneous if understood as the removal of Christ’s divine nature. Such interpretation is not supported here nor elsewhere in Scripture. The text does not state that Christ "emptied himself" of anything, but rather that he "emptied Himself" by taking the form of a human and a servant to the point of death, for our good and for our salvation. Beginning in Philippians 2:5, Paul sets forth Christ as the consummate example of the very kind of selflessness to which he exhorts believers in 2:3–4, and which he himself exemplifies in 2:17.
  2. to make void
    1. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect
  3. to make void
    1. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κενόω kenóō, ken-o'-o; from G2756; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify:—make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G2758:
κενόω, κενῷ: (future κενώσω, 1 Corinthians 9:15 L text T Tr WH); 1 aorist ἐκενωσα; passive, perfect κεκνωμαι; 1 aorist ἐκενωθην;
1. to empty, make empty: ἑαυτόν ἐκένωσε, namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God BLB DISCLAIMER (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7 (see a fuller exposition of this passage in μορϕή).
2. to make void i. e. deprive of force, render vain, useless, of no effect: passive, Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17.
3. to make void i. e. cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false: τό καύχημα, 1 Corinthians 9:15; passive 2 Corinthians 9:3. (Twice in the Sept. viz. Jeremiah 14:2; Jeremiah 15:9; often in Attic writings.)
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
BLB Disclaimer
The statement that Christ "laid aside equality with or the form of God" is confusing and erroneous if understood as the removal of Christ’s divine nature. Such interpretation is not supported here nor elsewhere in Scripture. The text does not state that Christ "emptied himself" of anything, but rather that he "emptied Himself" by taking the form of a human and a servant to the point of death, for our good and for our salvation. Beginning in Philippians 2:5, Paul sets forth Christ as the consummate example of the very kind of selflessness to which he exhorts believers in 2:3–4, and which he himself exemplifies in 2:17.

not sure if they are entirely correct in their disclaimer. He obviously was limited as a Man. He also had to experience what He went through as a Man to accomplish our salvation and learn from it and be perfected forever. It makes what He did even more incredible when considering He did it as one of us. He also experienced being forsaken of His Father when on the cross as He was cursed and made to be sin and then in death. At no time during any of this did He waver in His obedience and faith and praise of His Father while He suffered for us, as a Man, to accomplish His Father's will to save us.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#95
verses

(the Son) Who His Own Self bare our sins in His Own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by Whose stripes ye were healed.

Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, YAH sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#96
His prayers in the Psalms also tell us He saved us as a Man. He prayed to His Father through it all and depended on His Father to vindicate Him and raise Him from death to life again as was promised to Him in the law. He died and was dead while He was "emptied." He was glorified as a Man later after He had accomplished our Salvation and was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father and then returned to His Father.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#97
His ascension Psalm

Psalm 47

For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by the sons of Korah.

47:1 Oh clap your hands, all you nations.
Shout to 'Elohim with the voice of triumph!
47:2 For YHVH Most High ('Elyon) is Awesome.
He is a great King over all the earth.
47:3 He subdues nations under us,
and peoples under our feet.
47:4 He chooses our inheritance for us,
the Glory of Jacob whom He loved.
Selah.
47:5 'Elohim has gone up with a shout,
YHVH with the sound of a shofar.
47:6 Sing praise to 'Elohim, sing praises.
Sing praises to our King, sing praises.
47:7 For 'Elohim is the King of all the earth.
Sing praises with understanding.
47:8 'Elohim reigns over the nations.
'Elohim sits on His holy throne.
47:9 The princes of the peoples are gathered together,
the people of the 'Elohim of Abraham.
For the shields of the earth belong to 'Elohim.
He is greatly exalted!
 
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evyaniy

Guest
#99
Hebrews 2 is integral to understanding His being a Man. He was in all things made like His brothers. He Himself in the same way partook of the same.

Hebrews 2

9 But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Yeshua, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God) He should taste of death for everyone.
10 For it became Him, for Whom are all things and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their Salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12 saying,
“I will declare Your Nname to My brothers.
Among the congregation I will sing Your praise.”*
13 Again, “I will put My trust in Him.” Again, “Behold, here I am with the children Whom EL has given Me.” 14 Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, He also Himself in the same way partook of the same, that through death He might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might deliver all of them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For most certainly, He doesn’t give help to angels, but He gives help to the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore He was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that He might become a merciful and faithful high Priest in things pertaining to EL, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered being tempted, He is able to help those who are tempted.

John 17:5

5 Now, Father, glorify Me with Your Own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.
 

Grace911

Active member
Nov 11, 2018
595
148
43
Jesus was fully YHWH/LORD before becoming a man. I believe the phrase "angel of the LORD" is also a visible form of YHWH, sending out messengers. Jesus was also a messenger and then so much more.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last

Revevlation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev elation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Can the following verse be applied also to Yehovah and Yeshua? They both are the first and the last. Is it because there is only ONE in two roles? One role is hidden or invisible to the physical realm and the other role is present and visible in the physical realm?

Mat 20:16a So the last shall be first, and the first last:

The reason that the last book of the bible warns to not take away from the words is because whatever YHWH speaks is perfect and not to be changed. This is added understanding that Yeshua/Salvation/Jesus is YHWH/LORD/Yehovah.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.


Two bookends of the entire Bible

Revelation 22:21 The grace {G5485} of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

G5485
χάρις = 911=charis (chi=600)+(alpha=1)+(rho=100)+(iota=10)+(sigma=200)
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

First verse in the Bible:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning {H7225} God created the heaven and the earth.

H7225
ראשׁית
911= rê’shı̂yth (resh=200)+(aleph=1)+(shin=300)+(iota=10)+(tav=400)
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

However, upon deeper study looking at Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew text we discover there is a super large bet that comes first.
Gen 1:1 בראשׁית H7225
Bet means "House" So "In the beginning" begins with Bet/House/(Family?) Could this "bet" represent Yeshua/Jesus?

I also noted that the LORD/YHWH is never mentioned in Genesis 1, but is used beginning in Genesis 2.

Why just the generic title "God/Elohiym" (H430) in Genesis 1? Is it because it is plural? Like me, myself and I are all one being?
H430
אלהים
’ĕlôhı̂ym

Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.