Jesus: Both Son and Father?

[oldhermit]

I gave a detailed response to John 1:1. You simply called me crazy and offered no biblical explanation yourself. In everyone of my posts I give scripture to back what I am saying. You guys simply say no that's not true and expect me to respect your opinion. Sorry, but i don't know any of you personally and I am not gonna take your word for anything. Give me scripture to support your claims as I have done in all of my posts.

If you are referring to the fact that you claim I have a bad understanding of Greek, I clearly stated that I am no Greek scholar so i will not make a fool of myself in attempting to debate Greek nuances. Firstly, I can only take the word of accomplished Greek scholars that have made easy references in the English. All the lexicons I've read translate the word "Word" in John 1:1 as "logos" and give the definition as a plan or concept. You may be a Greek scholar but I haven't read any of your works and if yours differ with the hundreds of others that are published, I would tend to believe the majority that have been scrutinized through due process before being published vs the opinion of one unverifiable source.

Secondly, If we cannot read the bible in plain English, and come to the knowledge of the truth without having to study Greek, why is there an English bible at all? I submit to you that the truth is written there in plain English and in the English, One means One every time. Not Three in One, just plain One. One God!

Lets set the record straight son. I offered to take you through an exegetical study of John 1:1 to show you why your ideas will not stand up to an examination of the grammar. You simply ignored me. I have been a teacher far too long not to recognize a tin-horn when I see one. You throw out an argument and when the argument is called into question and you are challenged with close examination of a text you run away. I understand that you are no Greek scholar but, this is no excuse for not at least listening to someone who may have more to offer you on this than you have ever even thought about. Secondly, your lack of research is quite telling. Logos does not mean plan or concept. I don't care where you heard this from, it is utter nonsense. Are you willing to test your theological theory against someone who just may know a little more about this that you do or, are you just going to run away?

The ball is sin you court young man. ​

 

[Noose]

Luke 11: 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

John 14: 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you

The father did not send himself. He sent another person.

This is how God sends another person who is Himself:

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling:“In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord[SUP]a[/SUP] ;make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[SUP]a[/SUP] the Son of God,[SUP]b[/SUP]2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[SUP]c[/SUP] —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”[SUP]d[/SUP]

4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with[SUP]e[/SUP] water, but he will baptize you with[SUP]f[/SUP] the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

In Malachi, we see God say that He is coming and in the same verse changes and calls Himself (When he gets here) the messenger of the covenant. Isaiah calls Him God and in Marks explanation we see the messenger of the covenant is clearly Jesus.


That is not the only example; Jesus before ascending, tells the disciples that He will ask the Father to send the comforter and in another verse He says that He will send the comforter Himself and yet in another verse explains how the everything the Father has are His and that the comforter will take of what is His and give to the disciples. Again Jesus says that the father and Himself will come into the disciples but He just said that the Holy spirit will be the one to come in them. Jesus also alluded that He is infact the Holy spirit when He told them that He must go for the comforter to come in them and that if He doesn't go, the comforter would not come in them yet the comforter was already there with them- yet in another verse, Jesus says he will not leave them with sorrow and that He shall be with them forever and comfort them.

I know it is confusing but read John 14/15/16 - Jesus is trying to explain this relationship and even the disciples couldn't understand.

Look at this for example:
John 16:16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”17At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?”18They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’?20Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


Why did Jesus say "24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name..?"
It was because He had not gone and come back in them in the form of the holy spirit so that they become sons of God (One of God's authority)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is how God sends another person who is Himself:

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling:“In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord[SUP]a[/SUP] ;make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[SUP]a[/SUP] the Son of God,[SUP]b[/SUP]2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[SUP]c[/SUP] —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”[SUP]d[/SUP]

4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with[SUP]e[/SUP] water, but he will baptize you with[SUP]f[/SUP] the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

In Malachi, we see God say that He is coming and in the same verse changes and calls Himself (When he gets here) the messenger of the covenant. Isaiah calls Him God and in Marks explanation we see the messenger of the covenant is clearly Jesus.


That is not the only example; Jesus before ascending, tells the disciples that He will ask the Father to send the comforter and in another verse He says that He will send the comforter Himself and yet in another verse explains how the everything the Father has are His and that the comforter will take of what is His and give to the disciples. Again Jesus says that the father and Himself will come into the disciples but He just said that the Holy spirit will be the one to come in them. Jesus also alluded that He is infact the Holy spirit when He told them that He must go for the comforter to come in them and that if He doesn't go, the comforter would not come in them yet the comforter was already there with them- yet in another verse, Jesus says he will not leave them with sorrow and that He shall be with them forever and comfort them.

I know it is confusing but read John 14/15/16 - Jesus is trying to explain this relationship and even the disciples couldn't understand.

Look at this for example:
John 16:16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”17At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?”18They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’?20Very truly I tell you, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.


Why did Jesus say "24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name..?"
It was because He had not gone and come back in them in the form of the holy spirit so that they become sons of God (One of God's authority)

So your saying John the baptist was The father?

Please explain

 

[posthuman]

Because there is a difference between the Son and the Father, they are not the same, Jesus is known in the old testament as Yahweh - Yahweh is not the Father.

It can be confusing but the new testament clearly states in various places that Jesus was/is Yahweh but not the Father - Yahweh took on flesh as Jesus. The Father did not.

Look down from heaven and see from Your holy and glorious habitation;
Where are Your zeal and Your mighty deeds?
The stirrings of Your heart and Your compassion are restrained toward me.
​

​

For You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us
And Israel does not recognize us.
You, O LORD, are our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.
(Isaiah 63:15-16)
​

here in Isaiah YHWH is identified as both Father & Redeemer.
named, even.
((v. 17 presents also a problem for the idea of completely free will, btw))

my opinion is that this isn't so easily understood as such human conversations as the one we are engaged in sometimes make it out to be; it is a mystery.

 

[Noose]

No physical Kingdom?

Please explain

These verses, prove that Jesus doesn't return as a physical entity but as the kingdom of God. His return is not a once off event but He comes and indwells believers (as the holy spirit) one at a time as they are added into the kingdom until the end of age. These believers are the 144k faithful believers talked of in Revelation. At the end of the age, they shall be converted into other heavenly bodies (spirits i believe) and this is what we call the new Jerusalem. It is not a physical kingdom but souls of believers.
take a look at these verses:

Luke 17:20[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[SUP]c[/SUP]22Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day[SUP]d[/SUP] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Matt 24:22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1
Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

 

[Noose]

So your saying John the baptist was The father?

Please explain

Nope, In Malachi, God Almighty says that he is coming and just before He comes, He will send a messenger to prepare His way.
Isaiah prequotes John the baptist as the messenger who prepares the way for our God when he says "prepare a highway for our God in the wilderness.."
Mark quotes the two prophesies and then explains what was happening at that time in fulfillment of those prophesies- so Mark clearly identifies John as the messenger who prepares the way for God and Jesus as the Almighty God who promised to come as a messenger- So God sends himself. He clearly identifies Himself as the messenger of the covenant, doesn't He?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope, In Malachi, God Almighty says that he is coming and just before He comes, He will send a messenger to prepare His way.
Isaiah prequotes John the baptist as the messenger who prepares the way for our God when he says "prepare a highway for our God in the wilderness.."
Mark quotes the two prophesies and then explains what was happening at that time in fulfillment of those prophesies- so Mark clearly identifies John as the messenger who prepares the way for God and Jesus as the Almighty God who promised to come as a messenger- So God sends himself.

Ah, I see, I misundertstood sorry.

I showed you in Is 48 that the god of Israel was jesus, who was sent by the father and the spirit.

Is 48: [FONT=&quot]Listen to Me, O Jacob,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God
[/FONT]
[/FONT]


This is the same God Moses saw in th eburning bush, who when he asked him what his name was. Responded by saying literally, I who always existed (the same words jesus used when he stated, before abraham was, I have always existed.

and this would be the same God who spoke in malichi

he was sent by the father and the spirit. So they can not be the same.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]




[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[posthuman]

That does not answer why for example Jesus was praying to Father if he can avoid the cross, but that the will of Father must be done.

Or why Father sent His son into the world.

Etc. You need to throw out half of Bible if you want to get rid of Trinity.

whether we are thinking of Him in some modal way or some kind of cosmic split-personality or parts of an whole, if we admit that He is God, and that He came as a man, then many of the things He did seem almost inexplicable when we project our own humanity onto His person.

modally Son & Father or uniquely Son & uniquely Father while simultaneously one God, if we think of Him praying as though a human like us, it is strange to think, does God need to pray aloud to God in order for God to hear Himself? does God wrestle with Himself about His own will, and have internal conflict within Himself?

seems preposterous, doesn't it? but if we ask, for whose benefit did He pray aloud, and pray in the way He prayed - then it being apparent that if He is one, either in will or person, it is not for His own benefit that He says "if it is your will, let this cup pass" but it is for the benefit of those who heard Him, and those to whom it was recorded and written. He is saving us by doing this, teaching us how we ought to pray, showing us how we ought to conduct and compose ourselves, demonstrating the perfection of human-ness that He is changing us into as we believe and continue in Him. He is, by taking off the robe of His glory and putting on flesh, revealing Himself to us - revealing the Father, revealing the Son, revealing the Spirit: and by revealing He is instructing our hearts, creating in us knowledge of Him, which is life.

IMO, He is not praying to the Father for His own sake, but for the sake of those He is redeeming unto Himself. that is why it is recorded and transmitted to us, so we will believe, and be instructed, and have life.

it is similar in Genesis 3 when He asks "where are you?" -- God knows exactly where Adam & the Woman are at all times. it is not for His own benefit that He voices this question. and in Exodus 4 when He asks Moses, "what is that in your hand?" -- God knows exactly what Moses' staff is, better than Moses himself knows. it is not out of ignorance God asks this, but in order to teach Moses something: and also us, therefore it has been recorded and transmitted.

 

[posthuman]

Yeaaa, the difference between me and you; you read the 2000+ pages and conclude that God did not become the messenger, i read these passages, i conclude differently:

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling:“In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord[SUP]a[/SUP] ;make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1:1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[SUP]a[/SUP] the Son of God,[SUP]b[/SUP]2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[SUP]c[/SUP] —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”[SUP]d[/SUP]

4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with[SUP]e[/SUP] water, but he will baptize you with[SUP]f[/SUP] the Holy Spirit.”
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

The 3 passages talk of the same event, in Malachi, God Almighty says he is coming as a messenger. Isaiah foretells the same events but calls Him God. Mark explains both prophesies and clearly tells us, that Jesus is this messenger who promised to send Himself who is also God Almighty.

these that you cited are all about John the baptist, who Christ said is Elijah, "if you will accept it"

are you saying John the baptist is also God? surely not.

they are not about Messiah, but about the one who prepares the way for Messiah, if i read correctly. Malachi 3:1 in particular, says He will send His messenger to prepare the way for Himself - and then the Lord will enter His temple, "the messenger of the covenant" -- this is either messenger in two senses, John and Jesus, with the second, Jesus, being identified as God Himself but the first, not God but God's servant & prophet, or "messenger" refers to only one person, John, not identified as God but as one who prepares the way for God. i think it is the former, John, Elijah the messenger preparing the way, and Christ, The Angel of The Lord (('angel' is literally 'messenger')) -- God Himself come to us in flesh to bring the message of His covenant and peace.

 

[BillG]

These verses, prove that Jesus doesn't return as a physical entity but as the kingdom of God. His return is not a once off event but He comes and indwells believers (as the holy spirit) one at a time as they are added into the kingdom until the end of age. These believers are the 144k faithful believers talked of in Revelation. At the end of the age, they shall be converted into other heavenly bodies (spirits i believe) and this is what we call the new Jerusalem. It is not a physical kingdom but souls of believers.
take a look at these verses:

Luke 17:20Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[SUP]c[/SUP]22Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day[SUP]d[/SUP] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Matt 24:22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1
Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

Only 144k will be saved as spirits?

 

[posthuman]

these that you cited are all about John the baptist, who Christ said is Elijah, "if you will accept it"

are you saying John the baptist is also God? surely not.

they are not about Messiah, but about the one who prepares the way for Messiah, if i read correctly. Malachi 3:1 in particular, says He will send His messenger to prepare the way for Himself - and then the Lord will enter His temple, "the messenger of the covenant" -- this is either messenger in two senses, John and Jesus, with the second, Jesus, being identified as God Himself but the first, not God but God's servant & prophet, or "messenger" refers to only one person, John, not identified as God but as one who prepares the way for God. i think it is the former, John, Elijah the messenger preparing the way, and Christ, The Angel of The Lord (('angel' is literally 'messenger')) -- God Himself come to us in flesh to bring the message of His covenant and peace.

. . . . and . . . .

post should have read the next page before he replied

 

[BillG]

These verses, prove that Jesus doesn't return as a physical entity but as the kingdom of God. His return is not a once off event but He comes and indwells believers (as the holy spirit) one at a time as they are added into the kingdom until the end of age. These believers are the 144k faithful believers talked of in Revelation. At the end of the age, they shall be converted into other heavenly bodies (spirits i believe) and this is what we call the new Jerusalem. It is not a physical kingdom but souls of believers.
take a look at these verses:

Luke 17:20Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed,21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[SUP]c[/SUP]22Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day[SUP]d[/SUP] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Matt 24:22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mark 9:1
Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."

MattG,

You liked the above.

What resonate with you for the like?

Purpose not to diss you.

Just interested.

 

[Deade]

So your saying John the baptist was The father?

Please explain

When John the Baptist started his ministry it started a faith movement. That is what God shared with me, and there will be a similar faith movement before His second coming.

The actual person Elijah is not coming back. He also is not in heaven as it says here: 2 Kings 2:11: "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

heaven = H8064
שָׁמֶה שָׁמַיִם
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

Basically he was taken into the sky. Nobody comes back from the dead. Before you claim the transfiguration as proof otherwise: Matt. 17:9: "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

A vision: a vision is just a vision not a real person.

 

[posthuman]

Only 144k will be saved as spirits?

i think a good case can be made that the 144k are one and the same with 'the great multitude no man can number' -- 144k symbolically described, multitude, more literally described. course i could be way off, and many people abhor that explanation and are adamant that the 144k is a literal number of specific people. i don't "know" -- i just say, such a case can be made.

 

[Noose]

I showed you in Is 48 that the god of Israel was jesus, who was sent by the father and the spirit.

...
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[a] sent Me.”

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God




This is the same God Moses saw in th eburning bush, who when he asked him what his name was. Responded by saying literally, I who always existed (the same words jesus used when he stated, before abraham was, I have always existed.

and this would be the same God who spoke in malichi

he was sent by the father and the spirit. So they can not be the same.

You are still mistaken. This is another example of God sending Himself, the Father/Son/Holy spirit are one. You do realize that everything in Isaiah is a prophesy that is fulfilled by Jesus, right?
But Isaiah's prophesy are very different from other prophesies; in Isaiah, God speaks as if those things are happening then (during Isaiah's time) but they are actually prophesies some prequoting Jesus. And Jesus when he fulfills them, he never used to quote everything, He could just quote part of the phrase so that people could relate but very few would understand that he is. A good example is:

Isa 43:10“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,“and my servant whom I have chosen,so that you may know and believe meand understand that I am HE.Before me no god was formed,nor will there be one after me.11I, even I, am the Lord,and apart from me there is no savior.12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you.You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.13Yes, and from ancient days I am he.No one can deliver out of my hand.When I act, who can reverse it?


Here, God declares His sovereignty over other gods. He says that the difference between Him and other gods is that He declares things before they happen (In this case salvation), He comes and acts within the people (witnesses) so that they witness, and after they witness, he proclaims to them that He had actually said He would do that and that He has accomplished in their midst as God and not some foreigner.

Jesus fulfils this prophesy by quoting part of it:

John 8:24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am HE, you will indeed die in your sins.”

The context of Jesus' condemnation is salvation. he was basically saying that he is the savior and if they didn't believe He was, they would die in their sins. It came after the Pharisees asked Him about His witnesses (which also Isa 43 talks about). The only part that Jesus quotes so that people could relate to what He was saying and who He was claiming to be was "..I'm He.." only. Anybody who would have understood Him would have related to God's claims of sovereignty in Isaiah 43


It is about God sending himself even if there appears to be a separation between the authorities of God.

 

[MattG]

MattG,

You liked the above.

What resonate with you for the like?

Purpose not to diss you.

Just interested.

Because I believe what the Jesus Christ has said about everything, that was noted to those people in that day, and for that generation.

I believe what Jesus Christ has said to his disciples about His coming back...

I believe what the Apostles said about Jesus Christ and Him coming back to others back then in that those ancient days...

I believe that the people who were elected where people chosen back then from that period and not for us today...

I believe that Jesus Christ in what He said He would do was true, and He would not have lied to His disciples about coming back, even though a lot of people think there is going to be a psychical, it's actually spiritual...

There is a lot of things people don't notice in scripture they just read it, and say this and that, without considering context and everything else...

I believe when the revelation was a time when thing was going to shortly come to pass, I don't believe that could have been 2000 years later...

I just believe what the bible says, and I believe here what Noose shared is true.

 

[garee]

This is also why Jesus said to baptize in the NAME(singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. His name(singular) is Jesus!

God is not a man as us, never was never could be. Names used in scripture refers to authority.One baptism as on work of faith. One authority the father Son and Holy Spirit, one being . Represented by three immutable attributes of a Spirit without form.

 

[Noose]

these that you cited are all about John the baptist, who Christ said is Elijah, "if you will accept it"

are you saying John the baptist is also God? surely not.

they are not about Messiah, but about the one who prepares the way for Messiah, if i read correctly. Malachi 3:1 in particular, says He will send His messenger to prepare the way for Himself - and then the Lord will enter His temple, "the messenger of the covenant" -- this is either messenger in two senses, John and Jesus, with the second, Jesus, being identified as God Himself but the first, not God but God's servant & prophet, or "messenger" refers to only one person, John, not identified as God but as one who prepares the way for God. i think it is the former, John, Elijah the messenger preparing the way, and Christ, The Angel of The Lord (('angel' is literally 'messenger')) -- God Himself come to us in flesh to bring the message of His covenant and peace.

You misunderstood, the messenger who prepares the way for God is John the baptist. I was trying to show an example of How God sends Himself and tries to show the separation from Himself when He comes as the one who was sent. In Malachi, God clearly says He is coming and the part when He identifies Himself as the one who is sent, he tries to draw the separation by calling Him the messenger of the covenant. From this we are able to draw a correlation of how the Father/Son/Holy spirit are one yet a separation is drawn.

 

[tourist]

Only 144k will be saved as spirits?

No, these are the only ones that will be singing a new song, 12,000 virgin men from each tribe of Israel.

 

[tourist]

God is not a man as us, never was never could be. Names used in scripture refers to authority.One baptism as on work of faith. One authority the father Son and Holy Spirit, one being . Represented by three immutable attributes of a Spirit without form.

Jesus had a human physical form even after the resurrection. He also had a spiritual form.