Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Jason0047]

there is no need to insult the master of the wedding feast, and say he was too drunk to know whether the wine was good or not.

But it says they were "well drunk."

Also, by your claim here, you are admitting that they were drunk. Yet, the Scriptures say that drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, though. How exactly does that fit into your John 2 interpretation?

as for the guests, your point is exactly the point that the master of the feast made. that in the present situation normally the host would take advantage of the fact that the guests by and large probably couldn't tell good wine from poor. here we are back at the immediate context of the scripture you dispute. let's notice it

And what context would that be?

wine tasters don't judge wine purely by alcoholic content. but they don't completely ignore it, and they don't think it ruins wine for it to be present. they consider it a necessary component. if you don't yourself drink wine i have no idea what makes you think you're more qualified to judge what it tastes like.

I believe a Christian can drink soberly and in moderation in the privacy of their own home. But I also believe it is a dangerous substance that should be preached against, too. For many have fallen prey to this deadly drug. Also, I had drank in moderation and soberly as a believer before making the decision to walk the higher road in abstaining from alcohol, too. Also, I know that the taste of the wine is one of the primary factors in wine tasting. For if it was based primarily on alcohol, then they would just get any ole bottle of alcohol to taste.

if sending delusion makes God unrighteous, you've got a bigger moral problem with Isiah, with Christ's teaching in parables and with 2 Thessalonians 2:11 than you do with the miracle at Cana.

You've got to be kidding. God does not send folks who want the truth a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. People who suppress the truth in unrighteousness do that themselves. They choose to not in wanting to see and God just gives them more of their own self delusion. For God did not initially harden Pharoah's heart. Pharoah hardened his heart to begin with and God just increased or intensified what was already there.

just because they were eating and drinking doesn't mean they were gluttons and drunkards.
Jesus said as much Himself, didn't He?

So they were not drunk or had become "well drunk" with alcoholic beverages then.

but they said "He eats with sinners"

myself, i can't tell you how glad i am i don't eat alone!

We are not to have fellowship with unbelievers. Jesus did not hang out with sinners so as to do sinful things with them. Jesus was a Healer who was sent into Heal people of their sinful state of being. Jesus desired that they repent of their sins and turn from their wicked ways. He did not condone anyone's sins. Jesus was amongst sinners only to evangelize them.

 

[Kaycie]

Even though it is mentioned that this topic has been done here numerous times, I'm new here and appreciate that it's been done again. The scriptures are old, but if Christians don't keep on using them over and over again, how will the first time hearers hear them? I am not hearing this bible topic for the first time, but I do appreciate the scriptures and incites given because I am now doing a topic study to store notes in my computer's documents file, and want to collect scriptures on each subject. I want to be scripture-ready for bible study on any topic, therefore I highly appreciate this site and those who participate in studying God's Word.

I believe that Jesus did not make wine with alcohol, but that it was grape juice. The "Fruit of the Vine" represents Christ's blood. The bible says that the life of a being is in the blood. Jesus lived a pure life free of sin. His blood was pure. Therefore if the fruit of the vine represented Christ's blood, then it was also pure (without anything added like alcohol). The bread that represented His body was also pure. It was made without adding yeast to represent a body without sin. Therefore, in my congregation, we take cracker and grape juice for the Lord's Supper because we believe that to be biblical.

Thank you again to all those who comment and leave scriptures.

 

[JackH]

What do you make of the Weltch's Grape Juice Image that says "Unfermented Wine"?

I think Last should thank you for proving Last right.

I grew up in grape country very close to the largest Welch's plant and made a little money as a teenager picking grapes that went to Welch's for processing.

In 1869 Dr. Welch invented a process for pasteurizing the grape juice to halt the natural fermentation process. At first he called the product unfermented wine and then changed it to grape juice.

I might add that Dr. Welch reminds me of you. He advocated using his grape juice instead of wine for the Lord's Supper (note the word "sacremental" on the ads). I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that he, like you, would advocate that all toasts to the bride and groom at weddings be conducted with a nonalcoholic beverage. I do know that Dr. Welch located to a town that was supposed to be some sort of alcohol free utopia.

You fail again.

 

[lisa79]

I am glad to pray for you and I do feel your pain and I also do truly desire for you to have an increased happiness in Jesus.

The point I am trying to make is that the text clearly says the men at the Wedding party were "well drunk." (John 2:10).

Tell me, if the substance was alcoholic, and they drank well of that substance, then it is clear that they would at least be tipsy of such a substance and Jesus making a lot more of that substance would only help to push them beyond that point of being tipsy. Which would be drunkenness. But the Bible condemns drunkenness, though. For it says the no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God. I see the text all too clearly. From my perspective, your position is actually a lot more dangerous from where I am standing. If I am overzealous or over protective in defending God's good character, how can He really permanently fault me? But lets say I was to condone the fact that He might being doing something wrong as being good, though. That is a completely different matter. For the Scriptures warn us in switching things around and calling that which is evil as good.

Also, how can someone who is drunk recognize if a wine is "good wine" or not? His senses are effected by alcohol. Do you think wine tasters today think wine is good based primarily on the alcoholic content or the flavor of the wine?

Anyways, I say this all in love and with the hope that you might see where I am coming from.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

The ruler of the feast was the Bridegroom.
Does this statement say that he was drunk or observering and tasting?
He is the one who said "And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou has kept the good wine until now." John 2:10
Then Christ had the "servants" (this is us) "...draw now and bear unto the Governor of the feast called the bridegroom (this is him)...." (John 2:9)

He was methodically manifesting his own glory. Meaning He was methodically setting the scene. It is prophecy.
I would completely tell you about what all of these things symbolize but I believe your mind is made up.

I admire your zealous nature toward the Word but....But .again....we have no right questioning the alcohol content in Gods wine.

 

[lisa79]

Actually, as pointed out by "Standing Firm in Christ", he tasted of it, but he didn't drink of it, though (Matthew 27:34).

John 19.....28After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

He drank

 

[Jason0047]

I think Last should thank you for proving Last right.

I grew up in grape country very close to the largest Welch's plant and made a little money as a teenager picking grapes that went to Welch's for processing.

In 1869 Dr. Welch invented a process for pasteurizing the grape juice to halt the natural fermentation process. At first he called the product unfermented wine and then changed it to grape juice.

I might add that Dr. Welch reminds me of you. He advocated using his grape juice instead of wine for the Lord's Supper (note the word "sacremental" on the ads). I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that he, like you, would advocate that all toasts to the bride and groom at weddings be conducted with a nonalcoholic beverage. I do know that Dr. Welch located to a town that was supposed to be some sort of alcohol free utopia.

You fail again.

So I suppose Dr. Welch was in on the conspiracy of changing the dictionary in the 1700's, too. Did you look at the scanned image of that dictionary page by "Standing Firm in Christ"? Or are you simply choosing to see things that you want to see? Also, there are many historical documents of men preserving grape juice and calling it wine and also refering to the best wines as those that do not inflame the senses. Do you care to even research these kind of historical documents?

Also, I do not deny that alcohol ferments to a certain degree on it's own. But what you don't seem to realize is that it DOES NOT mean that a bunch of grapes on their own power will turn into a 10% glass of alcholic wine that we have today. Just look at any wine website and seek out the question on how to make your own wine like the ones we have that are popular today. They will always tell you to add cultured yeast. They will tell you that you can't have the strong alcoholic wine without adding cultured yeast. Are all the wine websites today lying? Research it for yourself and find out.

 

[Jason0047]

The ruler of the feast was the Bridegroom.
Does this statement say that he was drunk or observering and tasting?
He is the one who said "And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou has kept the good wine until now." John 2:10
Then Christ had the "servants" (this is us) "...draw now and bear unto the Governor of the feast called the bridegroom (this is him)...." (John 2:9)

He was methodically manifesting his own glory. Meaning He was methodically setting the scene. It is prophecy.
I would completely tell you about what all of these things symbolize but I believe your mind is made up.

I admire your zealous nature toward the Word but....But .again....we have no right questioning the alcohol content in Gods wine.

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Scripture commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). To violate Scripture is to break God's Word and that never ends well for anyone. For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding of Cana or not (John 2:10)?
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[Jason0047]

John 19.....28After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. 30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

He drank

No, I am sorry. You are seeing something in the Scriptures that is not there. For God's Word says,
"They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink." (Matthew 27:34).

 

[Jason0047]

For Those Believers Who Defend Drinking Parties and or in Being Cavalier in Their Drinking:
(I want to say the following to you in love and so that we might grow stronger in Christ):

Yes, it is true; We do have a liberty in Christ to drink soberly and in moderation in private. However, I want you to ask yourself this question, though:

Is there ever a point in your Christian walk where you would want to pick up your cross and deny yourself for your love of Jesus Christ?

Seriously. I want folks here who fall over themselves to defend drinking parties (Like at the Wedding at Cana) or to be cavalier in their drinking to just think. Why should a believer ever consider to abstain? Well, the Bible says alcohol is like a serpent that can bite you. Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging; And None of that has changed. We can still see that truth in our modern day world today. For many are destroyed by this liquid beverage every several minutes daily as we speak. So why take the risk? Why associate with it? Sure, you are not going to be punished by the letter of the Law for drinking soberly, but on the other hand, the Scriptures cannot be broken either. The Bible still warns against strong drink, too; For drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I mean, if alcohol is all good as many folks are pushing here, then why not try and witness for Jesus Christ with a bottle booze in your hand? I guarantee you that you will not get far. So if it is not good in your witness then, it should tell you something about how you live the rest of your life in regards to it.

 

[Jason0047]

Here is a really good article that folks should check out.

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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]I Am My Brother's Keeper

* We are at liberty in the Lord, but we still have to be aware of how our actions affect others

People will often say, Well, I can wear what I want or drink what I want or do what I want because I'm not under law. I'm under grace. But the Bible shows us something else that we need to consider:

Romans 14:21, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak."

1 Corinthians 8:11-13, "And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend."

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Alcohol has caused countless numbers of people to experience death, heartache, broken homes, sinful mistakes. You name it. Obviously a whole lot of people are stumbling because of it. Instead of justifying your drinking, realize that someone else may be made weak because of you.

We should be aware of the image we portray as ambassadors of Christ. In whatever we are doing, we should ask ourselves, "Will this thing cause someone weaker in the faith confusion or alarm?" "Will this cause those who do not know the Lord to believe I am worldly?" "Will this make my kids think that I approve of them engaging in this behavior?"

* I don't want to give anyone any "ammunition" that they can use against me, and also I don't want to weaken my testimony

When we personally engage in something, to a certain extent doing it "disqualifies" us from speaking out against it. How can I tell my children not to drink alcohol if they see me drinking? How lame does it sound when they say, "But you do it," and my response is, "Oh, but I know my limits."

The Bible tells us to "Abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22). We are not to even give the appearance of doing something that may be judged by someone as evil. If someone sees me at a restaurant with a glass of wine in my hand, do they know whether that is my first glass or my fifth? All they see is someone drinking an alcoholic beverage. I want people to behold my good works, not my questionable behavior.

1 Peter 2:12, "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

And this applies to other areas of our life, not just the appearance we give when we drink alcohol. For example, I know of an unmarried Christian woman who has a male roommate. Now, no matter how innocent their relationship is, to the world it appears that this couple is "shacking up," possibly fornicating. They are giving the appearance of evil.

We need to see our lives through the eyes of others and act in a way that glorifies God. And we need to do all we can to not give place to the devil (Ephesians 4:27) or do things that weaken our testimony as Christians.

* We are to be salt and light!

Matthew 5:13, 14 tells us, "Ye are the salt of the earth...Ye are the light of the world."

As a Christian I should be striving to set an example to others. I want to show the world that they don't need to drink to be social and happy -- they can be filled with the Holy Spirit. I want to show my brothers and sisters that they don't need to conform to this world's standards. They don't have to just blend in. What good is salt if it has lost its flavor or light that is hidden under a bushel?

Romans 12:2 "Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."

1 Peter 2:9, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.."

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

This world is doing a whole lot of "broad" stuff that deals with alcohol, fashions & beliefs. I do not want to live like the world, look like the world, or agree with the world, unless, of course, the world is saying that Jesus is Lord and that He is the only way to be saved! I want to lift the world to higher standards, God's standards. I want to glorify God in all that I do. 1 Corinthians 10:31, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

* We are at war with Satan and are subject to spiritual wickedness

There is a war going on, and I don't want even one person to take this war lightly or be unprepared because they caught me slacking off. I don't want to give the impression that it is okay to "relax with a little wine" while the Enemy is plotting and scheming!

1 Peter 5:8, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."

Ephesians 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

1 Peter 2:11, "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul..."

* And, finally, for the people who insist that they drink "responsibly," can you even really trust yourselves to know when enough is enough?

How can you say you know your limits? What are you trusting, your own heart?

Jeremiah 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 13:14, "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Isaiah 28:7, "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment."

Remember, friend, no alcoholic wanted to become an alcoholic. It all starts with a sip.

............................................

From the beginning to the end, the Bible shows us the consequences that alcohol can have. (Read 1 Corinthians 6:10.) Therefore, I refuse to see anything pleasurable in something that can have such serious repercussions for my fellow man or myself.

And as a Christian and an ambassador for God, I have a responsibility to set an example to those around me. I need to be aware of the fact that at anytime and at anyplace, I am being watched. Someone is taking note of my actions. These people who are viewing me may be family members, friends, or even total strangers. Who the person is, is of no importance. What is important is that I do not want to cause even one person to stumble in their walk because of my deeds, appearance, conversation, or habits. I am my brother's keeper.



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[Jason0047]

I think Last should thank you for proving Last right.

I grew up in grape country very close to the largest Welch's plant and made a little money as a teenager picking grapes that went to Welch's for processing.

In 1869 Dr. Welch invented a process for pasteurizing the grape juice to halt the natural fermentation process. At first he called the product unfermented wine and then changed it to grape juice.

I might add that Dr. Welch reminds me of you. He advocated using his grape juice instead of wine for the Lord's Supper (note the word "sacremental" on the ads). I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that he, like you, would advocate that all toasts to the bride and groom at weddings be conducted with a nonalcoholic beverage. I do know that Dr. Welch located to a town that was supposed to be some sort of alcohol free utopia.

You fail again.

I want to say that I do see where you are coming from. I suppose I should have titled the thread slightly different (And I apologize for that). It is true that freshly squeezed grape juice should technically be called "fermented grape juice." For grape juice that is freshly squeezed from grapes do ferment a little when it is crushed; And I also understand fully that 100% pure unfermented grape juice is created by the means of eliminating the fermentation process within it. I labeled the juice that Jesus made as "Unfermented Wine" (As a part of the Title of This Thread) because it was more similar to grape juice then it was like the 10% alcoholic wines that we have today.

I should have titled the thread:

"Christ made a non intoxicating low level fermented wine (Similar to Grape Juice) that is naturally produced when the grapes are first crushed versus a Fully Fermented (Yeast Added Cultured) 10% alcoholic Wine."

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, the Bible speaks of:

#1. A Very Low Level (Non Intoxicating) Naturally Produced Fermented Wine (That is Similar to Unfermented Grape Juice).
#2. A Very High Level Intoxicating (Yeast Added) Fermented Wine.

 

[Jason0047]

Side Note:

Although, Jesus did not serve intoxicating Wine at the Wedding of Cana (It was a very low level Fermented Wine). The Bible does not mention Unfermented Grape Juice (Which requires the meanings of Eliminating the Fermentation Process), but yet History does record that many had made unfermented wine (100% pure grape juice like Dr. Welch) and preserved it in times past.

 

[JackH]

Here is a really good article that folks should check out.

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[TD="class: alt1, bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]And as a Christian and an ambassador for God, I have a responsibility to set an example to those around me. I need to be aware of the fact that at anytime and at anyplace, I am being watched. Someone is taking note of my actions. These people who are viewing me may be family members, friends, or even total strangers. Who the person is, is of no importance. What is important is that I do not want to cause even one person to stumble in their walk because of my deeds, appearance, conversation, or habits. I am my brother's keeper.


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Good for you. You walk the higher road, as you have stated on this very thread.

Now what I think is that the nonsense you post could indeed cause a person to stumble in his/her walk.

It's a matter of credibility. In my opinion, you don't have much, on this subject, or the KJV-ONLY cultism you spout, et al.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[JackH]

I should have titled the thread:

"Christ made a non intoxicating low level fermented wine (Similar to Grape Juice) that is naturally produced when the grapes are first crushed versus a Fully Fermented (Yeast Added Cultured) 10% alcoholic Wine."

No comment.

Not one that would pass the censor's edits.

 

[Jason0047]

Good for you. You walk the higher road, as you have stated on this very thread.

Now what I think is that the nonsense you post could indeed cause a person to stumble in his/her walk.

It's a matter of credibility. In my opinion, you don't have much, on this subject, or the KJV-ONLY cultism you spout, et al.

I'm just sayin'.

Well, I want to thank you. You did help me to see that freshly squeezed grapes that naturally ferments should be called "Fermented Wine" and not "Unfermented Wine." And I understand that Dr Welch did hault or stop the fermentation process. I should have labeled this thread differently (See my recent posts). But I want to make clear that Jesus did not serve a highly intoxicating fermented wine. Jesus made a very low level naturally produced (non intoxicating) fermented wine.

So I am willing to admit my mistakes or when I am wrong. But I have my convictions on what I believe because of Scripture and the observable evidence that backs it up.

As for what I post making somebody to stumble? Please show me where in the world I said anything that would cause harm to anyone and I would be glad to explain simply to you what the Scriptures say on the matter and show you observable evidences that back it up, my friend.

 

[lisa79]

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Scripture commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). To violate Scripture is to break God's Word and that never ends well for anyone. For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding of Cana or not (John 2:10)?[/TD]
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If I had to speculate I would say there is but one who was sober enough to reckonise that the wine was good....the Bridegroom. The one who was talking to Christ otherwise everyone would have noticed.

 

[Jason0047]

If I had to speculate I would say there is but one who was sober enough to reckonise that the wine was good....the Bridegroom. The one who was talking to Christ otherwise everyone would have noticed.

First, it was actually the governor who pointed out to the bridegroom that the wine was good (and not the bridegroom). Second, in this scenario, if one or two people were only sober enough to recognize that the wine was good, then what about all the other people who were not sober that Jesus was making more drunk with his intoxicating wine? In other words, you are saying that the people at the party were drunk. But how exactly do you think that drunkenness is not a sin in the Bible, though? 1 Corinthians 6:10 clearly says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Jason0047]

...what about all the other people who were not sober that Jesus was making more drunk with his intoxicating wine? In other words, you are saying that the people at the party were drunk. But how exactly do you think that drunkenness is not a sin in the Bible, though? 1 Corinthians 6:10 clearly says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Was this how Jesus was manifesting his glory? (See John 2:11).

 

[posthuman]

If I had to speculate I would say there is but one who was sober enough to reckonise that the wine was good....the Bridegroom. The one who was talking to Christ otherwise everyone would have noticed.

i think the bridegroom and the master of the feast were two different people -

When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew); the governor of the feast called the bridegroom...
(John 2:9)

but to me it's just common sense that the man in charge of the feasting, and the servants of the house, if they were honorable, would not have been anywhere near as indulgent (so intoxicated) as the guests at the feast. but essentially, yeah, the man who tasted the wine and said how good it is could not have himself been inebriated and implied that most of the guests wouldn't be able to tell how good it was.

people who do not drink wine probably shouldn't declare themselves to be experts on wine.
ask someone who does drink wine -- the best wine certainly isn't completely unfermented, and it's not so strong that it destroys your taste buds on contact either. the best wine doesn't have the lowest alcohol content or the highest, but a whole lot of subtle nuances put together make it good.

Jason, i've been rude and curt and flippant with you; i apologize. it's my wretched personality.
what i want you to understand is that even cough syrup, if you drink enough of it, will intoxicate you. speaking as a man who understands by experience light drinking, moderate drinking, heavy drinking and outright drunkenness, to a man who does not drink at all, i think you don't understand how alcohol works, and you're assuming a worst case that isn't true.

a 'normal' person can drink one shot of liquor in an hour and have very mild, but not unnoticeable effects.
after about an hour the body processes all the alcohol and it's as though they had not drunk at all.
2 shots in an hour, and the effects are more pronounced, but that person isn't "inebriated" though some of their reaction times and senses are deadened.
3 shots in an hour and the effects are even greater, the senses are deadened so the drink no longer burns your mouth, speech becomes slurred and motor control is reduced.
4 shots in an hour and by legal standards you are drunk; your motor responses are too poor to be statistically safe to operate machinery, you don't walk, talk or think straight anymore, and all senses, including pain, are numbed.
anything beyond that is complete drunkenness.

about every hour, about 1 shot of liquor's worth of alcohol is processed by the body.

1 shot of liquor ~ 1 full glass of 8-12% wine ~ 2-3 glasses of 3-6% wine ~ one or two beers depending on alcohol %.

i think "well drunk" puts you somewhere in the category of 2-3 shots per hour. this is all 'average' math, because every person's body reacts differently according to your specific chemistry, tolerance and mass, as well as temperature and exertion, because alcohol sweats out of you. a man working in the hot sun can easily drink 3 times what he could resting in the cool of his house before he gets "drunk"
also important in alcohol absorption rates is food. if you keep eating while you drink, the alcohol is absorbed into the food instead of your bloodstream directly, and you don't become as drunk nor as quickly as you would if you just sat in a cool room downing cup after cup.

Israel is a hot place. they didn't have air conditioning. they were eating and drinking, probably for days.

these people were at a feast, not a saloon. i doubt they were drinking gallons per hour of wine. i don't think the wine that Jesus made was 15% alcohol. but i think it's pretty silly to make yourself believe it wasn't actually what we call wine. even if it was 6-8%, the strongest any "table wine" today would be, it doesn't turn a whole house full of people who are eating, socializing and drinking immediately into a room full of passed-out drunks snoring on the floor.
it's entirely possible and probable that the people at the feast could continue eating and drinking wine for hours, taking only 1 or 2 glasses per hour with food, and never go beyond a certain moderate level of intoxication, one that no one who actually has experience drinking alcoholic beverages would call "drunkenness"

i grew up in a house of German ancestry. i've been drinking wine and beer with meals since i was barely out of my diapers. it's part of my cultural heritage. if everyone's glasses are empty half way through Thanksgiving dinner, and we refill them, we don't suddenly fall out of our chairs or start beating our wives. by the time we get to the pumpkin pie, the effect of that last glass of wine is gone.


i think you're just misunderstanding a culture of social drinking and the effects of drinking relatively low strength wine while eating, because you don't really have experience with these things.

as far as whether miraculously refilling the house's stores of wine is tantamount to causing them to sin, that's also i think a murky understanding. it should be self-evident that if i offer you candy, it's not a sin, but if you eat 100 lbs of it you're liable to become diabetic. it's wrong of me to keep offering more after you've had your first pound, and it's your responsibility to refuse it in the first place and/or let me know if you're allergic to it.
i don't carry one now, but i've had state-issued liquor sales licenses in the past. if i see someone who has had to much to drink (and i had to attend courses to learn how to see this) i am liable to the court if i offer them more. if they go and kill someone in a DUI, they can sue the bartender for letting them get to that point. any good servant in the house at Cana should have noticed someone at the point of drunkenness and cut them off. there is no reason to think that because Jesus made the wine that He also served it and forced everyone to drink. there is no reason to think that God is unrighteous for making the sun shine, even though your skin may burn and your heart fail from exhaustion if you stay out under the heat for too long. there's no reason to call Timothy a drunkard or Paul a drug pusher. there's no reason to call Solomon a teetotaler for writing that it is good for men to eat their bread and drink their wine with gladness. we're free for freedom's sake, not licentiousness, and it's our fault if we abuse our freedom, not God's for making us free.

i think arguments like this may have had something to do with why He was reluctant to perform the miracle in the first place.
perhaps He knew straightaway that believers would focus on the wine and ignore Him.

but let's get back to Him -- He came to a people who He knew would not receive Him, and He associated Himself with the social outcasts rather than smug and self-righteous. He came to a people He had blinded and made dumb, so the Word spoken was true, and so grace could be shown to those without hope, without righteousness of their own.

He taught in such a way that those whose senses were dull would be even more dull, and those whose ears could hear, could hear even better. and one of the first things He did was make wine -- wine that a people whose sense were dull couldn't taste, but a man whose senses were sharp declared the best of all wines!!

that is His glory, not His shame - that all things written will be fulfilled. it is beautiful, and Beautiful is His name.

that's where i'm coming from. i don't think we have to agree 100% on this to be brothers in Christ.
i'm sorry for being rude. just like you, i feel zealous to defend the Word and my God. someone posted a few days ago "when iron sharpens iron, sparks fly"
i still love you and i'm not offended. i hope we can all bicker less, and glorify God more