Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
why would one say to destroy a grape vine?
i can only think, because the grapes are over-ripe, and not good for eating or fresh-squeezing.
those over-ripe grapes are already becoming wine as they are on the vine.
fermentation is God's natural means of preservative. can't we praise Him for that?
having a non-zero alcohol content doesn't make a beverage equivalent to rye whiskey in effect, and i don't think the Bible condemns alcohol, but it condemns using it as a weapon, idolizing it, abusing it, and calls drunkenness foolish, especially for people with authority and responsibility.
the teacher says it is for the brokenhearted, the impoverished and the hopeless, for solace and comfort:
Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:6-9)
i think it's profound that this same teacher also says it's not good to be overwise.
we have a stronger comforter.
but i will speak up for the destitute, poor and needy and say don't begrudge them what they thank God for!
i can't say "it's OK to drink beer but only a very small amount while locked in your closet and never tell anyone that you do it because they might stumble" in good conscience at all, especially saying at the same time that Jesus couldn't possibly have made actual any-%-alcohol-whatsoever-wine because that would be wicked. why did Paul stand up to Peter and chew him out? because he was saying one thing to one crowd but not following through like he actually believed what he said. either alcohol is inherently evil or it's not.
no one here is advocating being a drunk. Christ wept over Jerusalem. do you think He considered Israel destitute? poor and needy? He is her shepherd & king, and He took care of her sick and hurting, and those who could not speak for themselves! the first recorded miracle He did was see someone who could not have been seen, and the second was to turn water into wine. this is the God who sees those who are alone, and who comforts the brokenhearted!!!
the best thing i've seen in this thread is what that same heartbroken sister of ours who took strong drink for solace tried to tell us, that it was not yet Jesus' time, so He did not give the guests His blood, but literal wine, a drink that can cause delusion, an example of His power and a type of blood, and this was just as the Lord had said through Isaiah that Israel should be blind and deaf for a time, so we gentiles could be shown grace.
His blood is the true wine, as He said, take, drink, this is my blood - as He said when it was His time to pour that blood out.
as His wine has power to relieve pain, anxiety and relax muscles, so His blood can take away all of our own pain, our fear, and give us real, everlasting peace! as wine ages, it becomes more powerful - and didn't our Lord say that those we who have not seen, but still believed are more blessed? is there a greater glory for the ones that receive His blood in the last days?
because we're busy disputing over words and trying to measure Jesus up to our puffed up propriety instead of praising Him we're missing joy!
why would one say to destroy a grape vine?
i can only think, because the grapes are over-ripe, and not good for eating or fresh-squeezing.
those over-ripe grapes are already becoming wine as they are on the vine.
fermentation is God's natural means of preservative. can't we praise Him for that?
having a non-zero alcohol content doesn't make a beverage equivalent to rye whiskey in effect, and i don't think the Bible condemns alcohol, but it condemns using it as a weapon, idolizing it, abusing it, and calls drunkenness foolish, especially for people with authority and responsibility.
the teacher says it is for the brokenhearted, the impoverished and the hopeless, for solace and comfort:
Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:6-9)
i think it's profound that this same teacher also says it's not good to be overwise.
we have a stronger comforter.
but i will speak up for the destitute, poor and needy and say don't begrudge them what they thank God for!
i can't say "it's OK to drink beer but only a very small amount while locked in your closet and never tell anyone that you do it because they might stumble" in good conscience at all, especially saying at the same time that Jesus couldn't possibly have made actual any-%-alcohol-whatsoever-wine because that would be wicked. why did Paul stand up to Peter and chew him out? because he was saying one thing to one crowd but not following through like he actually believed what he said. either alcohol is inherently evil or it's not.
no one here is advocating being a drunk. Christ wept over Jerusalem. do you think He considered Israel destitute? poor and needy? He is her shepherd & king, and He took care of her sick and hurting, and those who could not speak for themselves! the first recorded miracle He did was see someone who could not have been seen, and the second was to turn water into wine. this is the God who sees those who are alone, and who comforts the brokenhearted!!!
the best thing i've seen in this thread is what that same heartbroken sister of ours who took strong drink for solace tried to tell us, that it was not yet Jesus' time, so He did not give the guests His blood, but literal wine, a drink that can cause delusion, an example of His power and a type of blood, and this was just as the Lord had said through Isaiah that Israel should be blind and deaf for a time, so we gentiles could be shown grace.
His blood is the true wine, as He said, take, drink, this is my blood - as He said when it was His time to pour that blood out.
as His wine has power to relieve pain, anxiety and relax muscles, so His blood can take away all of our own pain, our fear, and give us real, everlasting peace! as wine ages, it becomes more powerful - and didn't our Lord say that those we who have not seen, but still believed are more blessed? is there a greater glory for the ones that receive His blood in the last days?
because we're busy disputing over words and trying to measure Jesus up to our puffed up propriety instead of praising Him we're missing joy!
L
Yes, it is a big conspiracy.
You also have obviously missed the post by "Standing Firm In Christ" that shows an actual screen capture of an old dictionary on the word "wine." Please note that you have to understand that it defines the word "liquor" as NOT an alcoholic substance. Here is the link to that.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ed-wine-not-fermented-wine-7.html#post1648489
You also have obviously missed the post by "Standing Firm In Christ" that shows an actual screen capture of an old dictionary on the word "wine." Please note that you have to understand that it defines the word "liquor" as NOT an alcoholic substance. Here is the link to that.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ed-wine-not-fermented-wine-7.html#post1648489
Usually topics like these among Christians go something like:
A) Jesus never drank alcohol - he used grape juice
B) Grape juice did not exist in the ancient world
A) Wait, what?
B) Once you squeeze grapes, they contain yeast, even air contains yeast, the juice will quickly turn to wine
A) Oh, I had no idea how wine was made
This topic is really sad and is exactly the reason why people think Christians are ignorant and anti-science.
A few last ditch efforts will involve the suggestion that someone brought down ice from hundreds of miles away during the winter, packed it into a basement, covered it with straw and et cetera....
The reality is that they didn't. People drank wine. Lying to people about the ancient world is not going to help your cause. You do not need to change history to give people a reason not to drink.
There is a huge difference between a beautiful woman and the abuse of a drug (Such as alcohol). I think some women today dress in a way that is inappropriate (Which of course increases the lustful desires of men); And yes, it is wrong to look upon a woman in lust. For Jesus said if we are to look upon a woman in lust, we have committed adultery with her already in our heart.
It's not about me being right all the time. I fall short of God's glory plenty of times. But His grace picks me back up when I confess of my sins and strive to walk uprightly with Him again by His power (And not my power). In fact, I have admitted in another public Christian forum when I have made mistakes. I am not ashamed to say that I am human; And I am not out to seek my own glory, either. For the moment we think we are something is to deceive ourselves. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. In other words, what I am concerned about is glorifying Jesus Christ and His righteous and good ways.
So when you see me stand up for what is good and right, I am standing up for Jesus Christ and what He taught us within His Holy written Word. For doing what is good and right is to show forth the love of God. Are you not for what is loving and good acccording to God?
I can't imagine the hell you have been thru. You have my deepest sympathies for any pain that you have experienced within your life. Please know that I do care and I do hope that the hurt that you have been caused is taken completely out of your life by the power of Jesus Christ. For I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Jesus Christ. For He is the Master Healer if we allow Him to heal us. That is my hope. For Him to heal you 100% and to be in the love of God where only Jesus remains in your heart. For His love washes away all the dark stuff within our lives.
I pray that you see that God is good, and that our sins can be forgiven if we recognize our sins as being wrong and if we call upon Jesus in brokenness before Him so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Anyways, I hope God's love shines upon you in a great way today.
May God bless you and bring you much peace.
Sincerely,
~Jason.
...
It's not about me being right all the time. I fall short of God's glory plenty of times. But His grace picks me back up when I confess of my sins and strive to walk uprightly with Him again by His power (And not my power). In fact, I have admitted in another public Christian forum when I have made mistakes. I am not ashamed to say that I am human; And I am not out to seek my own glory, either. For the moment we think we are something is to deceive ourselves. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. In other words, what I am concerned about is glorifying Jesus Christ and His righteous and good ways.
So when you see me stand up for what is good and right, I am standing up for Jesus Christ and what He taught us within His Holy written Word. For doing what is good and right is to show forth the love of God. Are you not for what is loving and good acccording to God?
I can't imagine the hell you have been thru. You have my deepest sympathies for any pain that you have experienced within your life. Please know that I do care and I do hope that the hurt that you have been caused is taken completely out of your life by the power of Jesus Christ. For I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Jesus Christ. For He is the Master Healer if we allow Him to heal us. That is my hope. For Him to heal you 100% and to be in the love of God where only Jesus remains in your heart. For His love washes away all the dark stuff within our lives.
I pray that you see that God is good, and that our sins can be forgiven if we recognize our sins as being wrong and if we call upon Jesus in brokenness before Him so as to be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
Anyways, I hope God's love shines upon you in a great way today.
May God bless you and bring you much peace.
Sincerely,
~Jason.
...
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The word "wine" in the Bible can refer to unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice).
In verse 7 of Isaiah chapter 65, the Lord is warning about how he is about to bring judgment upon Israel and repay them for the wickedness they had done (Isaiah 65:7 KJV). In verse 8 (Isaiah 65:8 KJV), the Lord compares this judgment upon Israel as if He is about to crush a grape within in His hand.
For the Lord says,
"As the new wine is found in the cluster"
And then a voice replies,
"Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it"
Then the Lord answers,
"So will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."
The "new wine" is said to be within the cluster of the grape. This "new wine" is obviously the fresh juice in the cluster. For the voice had pleaded with the Lord to destroy not the cluster of the grape that had the new wine because there was a blessing within it. In other words, there is a blessing within the cluster. Inside the cluster is juice. This juice is called a blessing and it is called "new wine." The blessing within the cluster is not alcoholic wine. Grapes do not grow off the vine as alcoholic wine. They need time to ferment.
Let me put it to you another way.
Those Moderationists who propose that the word "wine" can only be a reference to "alcoholic wine", then this passage would not make any sense and it would be like me saying...
As new orange smoothy juice is found within the ball of an orange.
Then someone yells out,
Please, do not destroy the orange smoothy juice that is inside that orange. I beg you. I like smoothies. Especially when they are mixed with lots of creamy milk.
However, such a statement would not make any sense. It is only fresh and new natural orange juice that is within the ball of an orange. Orange smoothies are a result of something you do later to the orange juice. Orange smoothie juice is not found within the ball of an orange anymore than alcoholic wine is found within the cluster of a grape.
In other words, only new unfermented wine (Grape juice) is found inside the cluster of the grape; Not old fermented alcoholic wine.
For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.
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The word "wine" in the Bible can refer to unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice).
In verse 7 of Isaiah chapter 65, the Lord is warning about how he is about to bring judgment upon Israel and repay them for the wickedness they had done (Isaiah 65:7 KJV). In verse 8 (Isaiah 65:8 KJV), the Lord compares this judgment upon Israel as if He is about to crush a grape within in His hand.
For the Lord says,
"As the new wine is found in the cluster"
"Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it"
"So will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."
Let me put it to you another way.
Those Moderationists who propose that the word "wine" can only be a reference to "alcoholic wine", then this passage would not make any sense and it would be like me saying...
As new orange smoothy juice is found within the ball of an orange.
Then someone yells out,
Please, do not destroy the orange smoothy juice that is inside that orange. I beg you. I like smoothies. Especially when they are mixed with lots of creamy milk.
However, such a statement would not make any sense. It is only fresh and new natural orange juice that is within the ball of an orange. Orange smoothies are a result of something you do later to the orange juice. Orange smoothie juice is not found within the ball of an orange anymore than alcoholic wine is found within the cluster of a grape.
In other words, only new unfermented wine (Grape juice) is found inside the cluster of the grape; Not old fermented alcoholic wine.
For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.
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L
I thank you for prayers and sympathy. I am a very happy person because I have Jesus. The truth is my husband has started drinking regulary and I know its because he can not relate to my spirit filled life. He says he believes but he doesnt want to hear me yap about it. This is not the man I married. I can tell you with all honesty that the reason I am still responding is not because I want alcohol to be okay but because I see something in the Scriptures you do not see and that is that it is not for us to judge the wines % alcohol. Because we are talking about the blood of Christ. I dont know if you are wrong or right but I would rather admit that its not clear than teach what could be false concerning this matter.
R
In 1 Corinthians 11:21; tells us that when the Lord's Supper was celebrated in the early church, believers ate
a full meal before taking part in Communion with the sharing of the bread and wine. For as you eat, each of
you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
a full meal before taking part in Communion with the sharing of the bread and wine. For as you eat, each of
you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
I am glad to pray for you and I do feel your pain and I also do truly desire for you to have an increased happiness in Jesus.
The point I am trying to make is that the text clearly says the men at the Wedding party were "well drunk." (John 2:10).
Tell me, if the substance was alcoholic, and they drank well of that substance, then it is clear that they would at least be tipsy of such a substance and Jesus making a lot more of that substance would only help to push them beyond that point of being tipsy. Which would be drunkenness. But the Bible condemns drunkenness, though. For it says the no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God. I see the text all too clearly. From my perspective, your position is actually a lot more dangerous from where I am standing. If I am overzealous or over protective in defending God's good character, how can He really permanently fault me? But lets say I was to condone the fact that He might being doing something wrong as being good, though. That is a completely different matter. For the Scriptures warn us in switching things around and calling that which is evil as good.
Also, how can someone who is drunk recognize if a wine is "good wine" or not? His senses are effected by alcohol. Do you think wine tasters today think wine is good based primarily on the alcoholic content or the flavor of the wine?
Anyways, I say this all in love and with the hope that you might see where I am coming from.
May God bless you.
And please be well.
The point I am trying to make is that the text clearly says the men at the Wedding party were "well drunk." (John 2:10).
Tell me, if the substance was alcoholic, and they drank well of that substance, then it is clear that they would at least be tipsy of such a substance and Jesus making a lot more of that substance would only help to push them beyond that point of being tipsy. Which would be drunkenness. But the Bible condemns drunkenness, though. For it says the no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God. I see the text all too clearly. From my perspective, your position is actually a lot more dangerous from where I am standing. If I am overzealous or over protective in defending God's good character, how can He really permanently fault me? But lets say I was to condone the fact that He might being doing something wrong as being good, though. That is a completely different matter. For the Scriptures warn us in switching things around and calling that which is evil as good.
Also, how can someone who is drunk recognize if a wine is "good wine" or not? His senses are effected by alcohol. Do you think wine tasters today think wine is good based primarily on the alcoholic content or the flavor of the wine?
Anyways, I say this all in love and with the hope that you might see where I am coming from.
May God bless you.
And please be well.
there is no need to insult the master of the wedding feast, and say he was too drunk to know whether the wine was good or not.
as for the guests, your point is exactly the point that the master of the feast made. that in the present situation normally the host would take advantage of the fact that the guests by and large probably couldn't tell good wine from poor. here we are back at the immediate context of the scripture you dispute. let's notice it
wine tasters don't judge wine purely by alcoholic content. but they don't completely ignore it, and they don't think it ruins wine for it to be present. they consider it a necessary component. if you don't yourself drink wine i have no idea what makes you think you're more qualified to judge what it tastes like.
if sending delusion makes God unrighteous, you've got a bigger moral problem with Isiah, with Christ's teaching in parables and with 2 Thessalonians 2:11 than you do with the miracle at Cana.
just because they were eating and drinking doesn't mean they were gluttons and drunkards.
Jesus said as much Himself, didn't He?
but they said "He eats with sinners"
myself, i can't tell you how glad i am i don't eat alone!
