Just me and Ken C, How do you understand Gal 3:2-5? (Others may also respond)
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A
atwhatcost
Guest
Usually, I agree. But It's Marc, who is kinder than most. And, as you can see, too many are going to pounce anyway. I really would like to see this just be between Marc and Ken.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
That might well be the truth, but Ken is a man who can choose to reply or not. (So far, looks like "not.") As for Just-Me? He painted his own bull's eye big enough to fit the side of a barn and keeps placing it on himself -- which is why I think Marc is just asking Ken.
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Matthew 18:15
A
atwhatcost
Guest
K
KennethC
Guest
This again is in reference to the works of physical written law observance for their justification, as this is what the whole book of Galatians is speaking on. And again nobody is saying we have to keep and obey the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws.
We seek to be perfected by doing His righteousness in our lives and not by physical ordinance keeping !!!
His righteousness contained within His teachings and commands are not the written ordinances of the Law, they are perfect law of liberty in Christ. It is what guides us to salvation through Him !!!
As we seek and do His ways in our life and not what the Law or our own doing wants to do............
K
KennethC
Guest
Thank you for saying this because the actual standard in the bible is to pull one aside privately, and not just call them out in front of others first.
I am at my mom's this weekend helping her out which is why I have not been on that much, but I will answer any questions posed my way as the Holy Spirit guides me to answer.
This passage has no bearing on the Spiritual aspect of the law that is retained within the moral aspect of it, it is referring to the written ordinances of law and rather a person receives the Holy Spirit by faith or the law keeping.
The faith again that I seem to differ with some others is how I truthfully believe by what the Word of God says and shows is that a true faith is an active faith full of the fruit of the Spirit that shows in good works !!!
Doing as the Lord Jesus taught and commanded is His righteousness in the faith, and not our own doing, and thus doing what He said would be by faith !!!
S
shotgunner
Guest
I would like to show you exactly how I differ from you my friend. I will post your words and make them bold and then state my differing view.
We seek to be perfected by doing His righteousness in our lives and not by physical ordinance keeping !!!
I do not seek to be perfected! I am perfected in Christ. Nothing that I can do can make me more perfect. My perfection is completed by Christ. Therefore my perfection is by faith in him, not in my works. My doing of righteousness is an outward expression of what has already been accomplished inwardly.
His righteousness contained within His teachings and commands are not the written ordinances of the Law, they are perfect law of liberty in Christ. It is what guides us to salvation through Him !!!
I am not guided into salvation. What this implies to me is that you are advocating a salvation that is earned as we obey the teachings and commands of Christ. My salvation is given by grace. That means I do not deserve it and cannot earn it. My salvation is given by my faith that Christ purchased it for me and he gives it to me even though I don't deserve it. The only requirement on my part is to believe that Christ and his grace toward me is my salvation. I must rely on him completely as my savior.
There is only one thing that will have a bearing on us spiritually,and that is being led by the Holy Spirit,and doing works of love,and goodness,which it would seem like all Christians would do that anyway.
We are not saved by any works that we do for they are coming from the flesh,which those in the flesh cannot please God,but we have to do the works of the Spirit to have faith active in our life,to have grace applied,but it is not coming from us causing salvation to come about,but coming from God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure(Philippians 2:12-13).
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off(Romans 11:21-22).
Not everybody continues in the same state as when they were first saved,which they slacked doing works of the Spirit,therefore doing works of the Spirit is essential to salvation,for people who deny those works will not make it.
We are not saved by any works that we do for they are coming from the flesh,which those in the flesh cannot please God,but we have to do the works of the Spirit to have faith active in our life,to have grace applied,but it is not coming from us causing salvation to come about,but coming from God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure(Philippians 2:12-13).
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off(Romans 11:21-22).
Not everybody continues in the same state as when they were first saved,which they slacked doing works of the Spirit,therefore doing works of the Spirit is essential to salvation,for people who deny those works will not make it.
K
KennethC
Guest
Again nobody is saying a person is saved by works, those works we do are proof of a true saving faith in the Lord.
Apostle James shows in James 3:17 that believers in Christ will be full of mercy and good fruit, and Apostle Paul shows in Romans 13:9-11 that by walking in love will uphold all the commandments given from the Lord and not just the two greatest commandments !!!
When looking into the spiritual attributes of the female goat in the sacrifices of the OT, we can liken it today to the church that propagates false doctrine, being of the feminine persuasion. The goat signifies a self-willed carnal nature, being antagonized to the point of destruction, by the sword of the Word, within the ranks of God’s children. This is what a holy convocation is supposed to be, likened unto what should be happening in our churches today.
After it is too late Proverbs 5:4 promises her to be reminded of what could have been, “But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.”
(Hebrews 4:12) “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:4
Mark 9:43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4:1
After it is too late Proverbs 5:4 promises her to be reminded of what could have been, “But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.”
(Hebrews 4:12) “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:4
Mark 9:43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4:1
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K
KennethC
Guest
Well let's take a look at what the scriptures say about being perfect:
Matthew 5:48
Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Philippians 3:12-15
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Here is just a few places speaking on being perfect in the faith, and as we can see that perfectness is to show out in our actions. It is not just an internal action within us but is the inside has to be cleansed first in order for the outer to show a true faith in the Lord.
And again doing His righteousness is not our ow doing !!!!!
The scriptures say clearly by our Lord Jesus a number of things where He says if we do not do we will not see/inherit/receive the kingdom of heaven. I can break them all down again if you would like, but we should believe and trust in what He said if we are believers in Him.
This is not earning salvation by doing as our Lord taught and commanded to do, as the grace is what was freely given to us while we were still sinners. The faith in Jesus that puts us under that grace is an active faith, and until we learn to separate grace, faith, and salvation then mushing them together as one will always lead to a false understanding.
Faith in Jesus is what puts us under God's grace that saves us unto salvation !!!
O
oldthennew
Guest
Paul was not saying that one should not be circumcised, he was disagreeing with the group mentioned
in ACTS 15:1., which states, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses,
you cannot be saved.' and, he physically circumcised Timothy, ACTS 16:3., and not only this,
Paul himself preached circumcision, GAL.5:11. 'And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision,
why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offence of the Cross has ceased.
the reason that he was being persecuted was because he was NOT preaching circumcision,
according to the Doctrine of the Judaizers.. as a pre-requisite to be saved....
it is written,
'For assuredly I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means
pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.'
MARK 1:14.
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God,
(here is a picture of the Thousand Year Reign.)
(if someone is not allowed in the future Temple, this is equivalent to being 'cast-out' from the
presence of God and doing homage to Him.) basically, it is a death sentence...
EZE.44:9.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh,
shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Circumcision has not passed from the Law...for all of the Law has Not been Fulfilled.
the fulfilling comes when the 'last enemy is destroyed, which is death'.
in ACTS 15:1., which states, 'Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses,
you cannot be saved.' and, he physically circumcised Timothy, ACTS 16:3., and not only this,
Paul himself preached circumcision, GAL.5:11. 'And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision,
why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offence of the Cross has ceased.
the reason that he was being persecuted was because he was NOT preaching circumcision,
according to the Doctrine of the Judaizers.. as a pre-requisite to be saved....
it is written,
'For assuredly I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means
pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.'
MARK 1:14.
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God,
(here is a picture of the Thousand Year Reign.)
(if someone is not allowed in the future Temple, this is equivalent to being 'cast-out' from the
presence of God and doing homage to Him.) basically, it is a death sentence...
EZE.44:9.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh,
shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Circumcision has not passed from the Law...for all of the Law has Not been Fulfilled.
the fulfilling comes when the 'last enemy is destroyed, which is death'.
Did you just contradict yourself? It appears so. Perhaps you could restate to clarify your position?
Blatant false witness of scripture. I doubt Paul said that GOD's commandments are nothing.
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Galatians 6:15
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands [i.e., faith & love] is what counts. 1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands [i.e., faith & love] is what counts. 1 Corinthians 7:19
O
oldthennew
Guest
Brother Dino,
our point is that Paul preached 'circumcision' but he did NOT preach it 'falsely' as the falsehood
discussed at the Jerusalem Council' the argument was that you 'had to be circumcised in order
to be 'saved' - in today's parlance, you are 'saved' by works.....
this is what Paul was so disappointed about and agonized over...they were putting 'works' above 'Faith'.
in another place Paul says, 'I have done nothing to offend the Jewish Religion', it would have been pure
blaspheme in Jewish eyes...so, he preached circumcision in the 'correct-context' = the 'incorrect context is,
that circumcision or any 'work' of the Law or any 'good work' can 'earn us our Salvation'...
it is stated clearly that 'we are SAVED by GRACE and none of us have the right to boast....
Dino,
we think this is where you made have mis-understood what we were saying,
(((according to the DOCTRINE OF THE JUDAIZERS)))
thank you for your comment, please let us know if you have understood our post...
our point is that Paul preached 'circumcision' but he did NOT preach it 'falsely' as the falsehood
discussed at the Jerusalem Council' the argument was that you 'had to be circumcised in order
to be 'saved' - in today's parlance, you are 'saved' by works.....
this is what Paul was so disappointed about and agonized over...they were putting 'works' above 'Faith'.
in another place Paul says, 'I have done nothing to offend the Jewish Religion', it would have been pure
blaspheme in Jewish eyes...so, he preached circumcision in the 'correct-context' = the 'incorrect context is,
that circumcision or any 'work' of the Law or any 'good work' can 'earn us our Salvation'...
it is stated clearly that 'we are SAVED by GRACE and none of us have the right to boast....
Dino,
we think this is where you made have mis-understood what we were saying,
(((according to the DOCTRINE OF THE JUDAIZERS)))
thank you for your comment, please let us know if you have understood our post...
Sorry, Marc, but you could have done this in PM with just-me and Kenneth. IMO, it's rude, embarassing, and in tacky poor taste to start a thread specifically naming persons such as you did with those two. However, you're not the only one who does it. I've seen threads where people also called out others by name, apparently unaware that it's humiliating to the person being specifically called out. It is in much better taste and more appropriate, to take it into a PM with just-me and KennethC. That goes for EVERYONE. Utilize the PM feature if you have a problem with someone, or you want to know some info. Don't embarass them on a public forum and specifically call them out by name..
K
KennethC
Guest
The preaching of circumcision in the new covenant is not of the flesh, it is the circumcision of the heart.
To clean the inside of our hearts fleshly desires to live a new by the Spirit, this is the circumcision of the new covenant and the Spiritual meaning behind the old covenant circumcision of the flesh. It was a sign for God's people, as the sign of who is the Lord's is by our actions in the faith that shows in our change of heart to now walk by His righteousness (Spirit) instead by our own doing !!!
S
shotgunner
Guest
There is a vast difference in the perfection of the flesh and the mind and in the perfection of the Spirit. The Spirit is born again in the image of Christ. One Spirit with the Lord, a new creation, all things are of God. The bible does teach the sanctification of the flesh and the renewing of the mind but these do not lead to salvation but are rather a product of it.
A more misogynist twisting of Leviticus, I confess I have never seen!
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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Leviticus 4:3-35 ESV
"3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the Lord for a sin offering. 4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the Lord and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the Lord. 5 And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting, 6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle part of the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the veil of the sanctuary. 7 And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the Lord that is in the tent of meeting, and all the rest of the blood of the bull he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 8 And all the fat of the bull of the sin offering he shall remove from it, the fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails 9 and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins and the long lobe of the liver that he shall remove with the kidneys 10 (just as these are taken from the ox of the sacrifice of the peace offerings); and the priest shall burn them on the altar of burnt offering. 11 But the skin of the bull and all its flesh, with its head, its legs, its entrails, and its dung— 12 all the rest of the bull—he shall carry outside the camp to a clean place, to the ash heap, and shall burn it up on a fire of wood. On the ash heap it shall be burned up.
13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally[a] and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,[b] 14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the Lord, and the bull shall be killed before the Lord. 16 Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting, 17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the Lord in front of the veil. 18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the Lord, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. 19 And all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar. 20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. 21 And he shall carry the bull outside the camp and burn it up as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.
22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the Lord his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt, 23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish, 24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the Lord; it is a sin offering. 25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering. 26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the Lord's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt, 28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed. 29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar. 31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the Lord. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish 33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering. 34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar. 35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
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As you can see from the whole passage above, for most sins, a bull or a male goat was used. Yes, a famale goat or lamb were used for intentional sins. But really, gender has no place in this discussion at all. It was simply about the WORTH of the animal, compared to the sin. Hence, the high priest or the entire congregation sinning required a sacrifice worth more. In Lev. 5, it continues with offerings from the poor, including pigeons, doves or flour, depending upon what the person could afford. No gender at all - just the value of the sin offering, which was all the poor person could afford.
These sacrifices have NOTHING to do with being masculine or feminine. English does not have gender for the nouns, but most languages do. It has nothing to do with female "persuasion" or masculine, for that matter. It is something that the language has, which developed as the language evolved.
These sacrifices were SIN OFFERINGS! Nothing to do with false doctrine, whatsoever. False doctrine wasn't even an issue in Lev. where they were just learning what God required of the community and individuals for committing sins. You know, like disobeying God!
As for Proverbs, wisdom is a metaphor, (cast in the female) in a book written by a father to his son. It contrasts the harlot to wisdom and urges the son to seek wisdom, not to go astray - which can mean women, idolatry or any other sin.
No wonder your posts don't make sense most of the time. It's because you don't have a clue what the Old Testament is about, and I am sure that extends to the New Testament.
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