Justified/Saved by Faith & Faith Alone
- Thread starter FlyingDove
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes, I do.
It is correct.
Yes he is.
Yes we do.
Sure is. God is a discerner of the heart, and His ruler is straight and true. It's either total surrender or it's not.
Not if we maintain a penitent heart. (And that has to do with our heart, not our works.) Let's just make sure we don't cast away such great salvation.
Hebrews 2:3
“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”
2 Peter 3:17
“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
Full speed ahead!
Sure can. Many have turned away from the faith.
John 6:66 “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.”
Salvation does require a personal decision. No one is born predestined for Heaven. Calvinism is a doctrine of devils.
Yes. We make a decision to receive it.
This passage is about believers who did not appreciate "born again".
This passage is not about poor innocent babes who simply didn't understand. God wrath has been kindled and they are headed for the hot place.
Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Amen.
Amen again.
We seem to agree on a few things.
Context is always key. A different perspective then the one I've been reading on this thread. I can respect the posters views & respectfully disagree at the same time.
Written to Hebrews! Heb 10 context opens teaching: Christ’s Sacrifice is BETTER because it is Once for All time.
Synopsis:
Verses 1-14: OT law sacrifices were endlessly repeated (24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year) & a mere shadow of the BETTER Once for All time sin sacrifice to come. Bulls & goats animal sacrifices didn't remove sin (only covered) or guilt of the worshiper.
Verses 15-17: Cite OT Holy Spirit inspired proclamation of a new BETTER Blood sin management covenant to come.
Verse 18: When this new BETTER sin management is invoked. Sin will be forgiven/removed/washed away (guilt too) & NO further sacrifice for sin will ever be necessary/required.
Verses 19- 25 Since our great High Priest's perpetually cleansing God blood sacrifice. There is no longer a need for a curtain veil that separates us from Gods presents.
Verse 26: Having said that, Chapter Context: After we have heard/know the truth/having been drawn by the Holy Spirit. If we continue to sin & by bringing an animal sacrifice (to appease Jewish leadership & avoid their persecution. Recall the sower of seeds parable here. Although they had been Holy Spirit drawn/enlightened they were never saved.)
Verse 29: Anyone that continues to bring an animal sin sacrifice. This rebellion against the God blood shed covenant is far worst than the rebellion their ancestors committed against Moses.
Final thought:
This doesn't mean post new covenant conversion/salvation, sin never carries a consequence. Having said that, loss of salvation isn't one on those consequence (1 Cor 3:11-15).
Consequence from sinning post-conversion/salvation could manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, prison, disease, lost heavenly rewards earned etc.
Peace, JJ
Written to Hebrews! Heb 10 context opens teaching: Christ’s Sacrifice is BETTER because it is Once for All time.
Synopsis:
Verses 1-14: OT law sacrifices were endlessly repeated (24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks per year) & a mere shadow of the BETTER Once for All time sin sacrifice to come. Bulls & goats animal sacrifices didn't remove sin (only covered) or guilt of the worshiper.
Verses 15-17: Cite OT Holy Spirit inspired proclamation of a new BETTER Blood sin management covenant to come.
Verse 18: When this new BETTER sin management is invoked. Sin will be forgiven/removed/washed away (guilt too) & NO further sacrifice for sin will ever be necessary/required.
Verses 19- 25 Since our great High Priest's perpetually cleansing God blood sacrifice. There is no longer a need for a curtain veil that separates us from Gods presents.
Verse 26: Having said that, Chapter Context: After we have heard/know the truth/having been drawn by the Holy Spirit. If we continue to sin & by bringing an animal sacrifice (to appease Jewish leadership & avoid their persecution. Recall the sower of seeds parable here. Although they had been Holy Spirit drawn/enlightened they were never saved.)
Verse 29: Anyone that continues to bring an animal sin sacrifice. This rebellion against the God blood shed covenant is far worst than the rebellion their ancestors committed against Moses.
Final thought:
This doesn't mean post new covenant conversion/salvation, sin never carries a consequence. Having said that, loss of salvation isn't one on those consequence (1 Cor 3:11-15).
Consequence from sinning post-conversion/salvation could manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, prison, disease, lost heavenly rewards earned etc.
Peace, JJ
The only way to be saved is by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9).
So obviously, a person must continue through thick and thin, and arrive at the end with that belief in Jesus. in tact.
Endurance cannot mean anything else.
Belief and faith are the same Greek word, Pistis.
Faith is the Latin translation of Pistis.
Pistis means trust, belief.
Probably the most difficult doctrine in the New Testament.
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
The new creation is designed for good works.
At the end of the day, we are only ever saved by the grace of God.
If you notice someone at church that could do with a good meal, feel free to buy them one.
So are you arguing one must endure through thick and thin, to keep spiritual salvation?
Agree, this is the central thesis.
Yes it is written to believers and not some people who only superficially believed.
You did not answer my question
Can I believe Jesus yet not trust him??
does this happen?
Faith alone is also known as easy believism and it was invented to quickly get more people into church to give their money.
People don’t want to come to church to hear about how they have work to do, the road is hard, and the way is narrow.
They come to hear about how good it’s going to be, how the problem is completely solved, and there’s literally nothing they can do to fall from grace even if they wanted to.
It saddens me so many people have been deceived.
People don’t want to come to church to hear about how they have work to do, the road is hard, and the way is narrow.
They come to hear about how good it’s going to be, how the problem is completely solved, and there’s literally nothing they can do to fall from grace even if they wanted to.
It saddens me so many people have been deceived.
Word of mouth, rumors, or is there proof of this accusation? When did this begin? The great preachers of the 18th and 19th century all believed in faith and no works.
Not biblical belief...biblical belief is being fully persuaded about what God has said and that he is able also to perform. Read Romans 4.
Um, no. "Sola scriptura" long-predates easy believism, and it had nothing to do with money or "getting people into church".
People don't want to come to church to hear falsehood. Repentance is hard because it undermines pride. Jesus is the way. The broad road is for all those who reject Him.
Uh huh...
I'm having a difficult time understanding why it is that people, and more importantly "Christians", seem to have a really difficult time with believing/accepting the Gospel message of Salvation/Justification apart from works?
I'd like to say that it's so evident in Scripture, but then I'm reminded that God's Word is only revealed by and through the Holy Spirit. So, I find no place for me to consider that I, personally, have any better insight... nor any occasion to point out "flaws" in someone's logic or reasoning. I've received the little that I do possess by Grace alone. If "they" don't understand this crucial element of our Faith and even preach against it, what is there to say?
I get concerned because of the warnings about those who try to re-incorporate the Law/works back into the Gospel message, and so I'm not sure how to view those that do? And not sure how to effectually communicate (or not communicate) the good news?
I totally get that concept that people in general want... to the point of needing... rules/regulations in their life to quantify their place in Life. It's very central to the human experience and practiced from our youth into all areas of endeavor. "Am I doing good? How can I do better? How do I rate among my peers?" Life seems all about following rules. And it's only natural for people to think that it's part of our experience with God. And indeed, a works-based system is found in all of the world's major religions, I believe. Christianity is the only one, as far as I know, that doesn't.
I also think that it really scares people to consider the idea of Christianity without "rules". I see it so much in these threads... the responses that seem to boil down to: "Without the Law, it would be utter chaos and pandemonium!" LoL. "If you don't believe in the Sabbath-keeping and the 10 Commandments, I guess you're okay with killing people and adultery too?"
Totally ignoring the idea of God writing the Law onto our hearts and minds and the very real of the Holy Spirit convicting the believer and guiding us. Not to mention the ongoing process of Sanctification and God conforming the believer into the very image of Christ Jesus. That "works" are the Fruit of the Spirit and the natural out-growth of our Faith in Jesus to "work and do His good pleasure". That through and by Jesus alone are we able to even come close to what people could not do before... keeping the Law.
I'd like to say that it's so evident in Scripture, but then I'm reminded that God's Word is only revealed by and through the Holy Spirit. So, I find no place for me to consider that I, personally, have any better insight... nor any occasion to point out "flaws" in someone's logic or reasoning. I've received the little that I do possess by Grace alone. If "they" don't understand this crucial element of our Faith and even preach against it, what is there to say?
I get concerned because of the warnings about those who try to re-incorporate the Law/works back into the Gospel message, and so I'm not sure how to view those that do? And not sure how to effectually communicate (or not communicate) the good news?
I totally get that concept that people in general want... to the point of needing... rules/regulations in their life to quantify their place in Life. It's very central to the human experience and practiced from our youth into all areas of endeavor. "Am I doing good? How can I do better? How do I rate among my peers?" Life seems all about following rules. And it's only natural for people to think that it's part of our experience with God. And indeed, a works-based system is found in all of the world's major religions, I believe. Christianity is the only one, as far as I know, that doesn't.
I also think that it really scares people to consider the idea of Christianity without "rules". I see it so much in these threads... the responses that seem to boil down to: "Without the Law, it would be utter chaos and pandemonium!" LoL. "If you don't believe in the Sabbath-keeping and the 10 Commandments, I guess you're okay with killing people and adultery too?"
Totally ignoring the idea of God writing the Law onto our hearts and minds and the very real of the Holy Spirit convicting the believer and guiding us. Not to mention the ongoing process of Sanctification and God conforming the believer into the very image of Christ Jesus. That "works" are the Fruit of the Spirit and the natural out-growth of our Faith in Jesus to "work and do His good pleasure". That through and by Jesus alone are we able to even come close to what people could not do before... keeping the Law.