KILLINGS OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS BY ISRAELI FORCES

[Sirk]

The victims are innocents, of which Israel have killed considerably more than Hamas.

Not all of the victims are innocents....not even ALL of the alleged "innocents" they splash across the boob tube.

 

[Esanta]

You know, I remember watching an interview with a woman from New York, who's son was killed in the 9/11 attacks. She was crying, and she said that the worst thing about this all isn't her son's death, although tragic, it's that war is being waged against civilians in her son's name. That's what her son's memory is; the deaths of civilians. She's been to visit mothers in Afghanistan who have lost their entire families in drone strikes and the last thing that woman wants is blood in the name of her son's death.

That made me realize this isn't something black and white. It's not a case of good guys and bad guys, it's much, much more complex than that and I see that this all began many years before 9/11. Just as the issues between Palestine and Israel began many years before a few weeks ago.

 

[PennEd]

PennEd, let's put this all in perspective. Let's do that.

Osama Bin Laden, was formerly a member of a US-backed group called the Mujahideen. This group fought against the Russians in the Afghan-Soviet war. Bin Laden founded a mechanics company close to the end of the war, then helped form Al Qaeda, originally a group committed to backing the many Arab states involved in defensive wars against potential invaders by giving them military equipment and soldiers.

Not so long after, the US government gave Saddam Hussein permission to invade Kuwait to avenge a large-scale theft of Iraqi oil by the Kuwaitis. Notice that NONE of these wars are inherently America's business, but all the same, they are involved in all of them somehow. Anyway, Saddam had stationed forces on the Saudi border, and the Saudi royal family felt threatened by the whole scenario. Bin Laden offered to help defend Saudi Arabia, an offer which the Saudis refused after American coercion.

The Americans soon turned on their word, denounced Saddam's invasion of Kuwait and invaded Iraq, stationing a large number of troops near Medina and after several public statements by Bin Laden against the Saudis, he was banished from the country. This kind of thing also happened with the Iraqi Iranian war. America gave their blessing to Saddam, then used the death toll to further demonize him after 9/11.

Anyway, Bin Laden moved to Sudan, as the Sudanese chair for a British construction firm. He built roads, houses, and other infrastructures using his machinery and employees made up mostly of his comrades from the Mujahideen. He was reported to be a very kind, generous man and was extremely popular with the Sudanese people at the time.

Meanwhile in Egypt, Mubarak was being targeted by Egyptian extremists reportedly funded by the CIA to overthrow the man. Several members of this extremist group were former Mujahideen.

Now the Americans were instrumental in destabilization, political manoeuvring and backhanding at every turn, while Bin Laden was, at that time, certainly not the nutjob he is seen as today. He was a respected member of a British firm, ex-leader of a US-backed military that managed to fend off the Russians, and a man well liked by the people of the country he lived in.

It wasn't long after the end of the first Gulf War that the Americans pushed for Bin Laden's exile from Sudan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and such.

This back-handedness, use and discard, has been part of American military policy for decades. There isn't a country in the Middle East the US haven't been involved in. Iraq and Afghanistan, two countries where the US backed war, then declared war, pushed and pulled, destroyed and divided.

Of course, many people felt aggrieved about it.

A long ways down the line, on September 11th, 2001, a group of 19 extremist hijackers from a fairly small group of international terrorists crashed planes into two US buildings, horrifically killing 3000 civilians. The leader, reported by US media to be Bin Laden, was international enemy number 1.

The US responded to these terrorists, who had a leader banished in half the Arab countries who has inherently no nationality or royal right, by declaring war in Afghanistan. The invasion began by bombing water supplies, electrical grids, power stations, cutting food supplies. Even though the Afghan leaders denounced Bin Laden and ordered him to leave the country, Bush instigated a full-scale war on them, killing more civilians than militants.

By 2003 there are hundreds of thousands of civvy deaths (somehow justified by 3000??) and Bush then decides to declare war on Iraq and find Saddam's WMD's. We all know what happened there.

We're now in 2014, with close to a million civvy deaths, worldwide destabilization, American instigated revolutions in Egypt, Mubarak is dead, the same Egyptian terrorists the US were after years ago are now part of an anti-coup party, Gadaffi is dead too, US or US-linked companies own the majority of Iraqi oil, no WMD's were found, Bin Laden is dead and the US hit-list of terrorist targets is multiple times larger than it was at the start of it all. That list also includes women and children.

You tell me who the terrorist is.

Your post is full of innuendo, half-truths, and outright lies. Plus, I WANT my nation to be the strongest on earth, and protect me, my family, our freedom, and way of life from all types of evil, not just muslim evil. I like sausage too, but I'm not crazy about watching it being made. Just as many innocent lives were taken by your gov. and mine in WWII, I thank those who have to actually do the dirty work we all get to benefit from.

 

[Esanta]

Your post is full of innuendo, half-truths, and outright lies. Plus, I WANT my nation to be the strongest on earth, and protect me, my family, our freedom, and way of life from all types of evil, not just muslim evil. I like sausage too, but I'm not crazy about watching it being made. Just as many innocent lives were taken by your gov. and mine in WWII, I thank those who have to actually do the dirty work we all get to benefit from.

Comparing WW2 to Iraq is like comparing Florence Nightingale and Harold Shipman. Your idea of freedom is actually genocide that the media cover up so you get to feel all fluffy inside when you sleep with wealth that 90% of the world haven't got. Your statements are ugly.

Catch a grip.

Everyone like you needs to read this man's book:

Robert Fisk on Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and the middle east - YouTube

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest/dp/1841150088

 

[PennEd]

Comparing WW2 to Iraq is like comparing Florence Nightingale and Harold Shipman. Your idea of freedom is actually genocide that the media cover up so you get to feel all fluffy inside when you sleep with wealth that 90% of the world haven't got. Your statements are ugly.

Catch a grip.

Everyone like you needs to read this man's book:

Robert Fisk on Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and the middle east - YouTube

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest/dp/1841150088

We're down to only 90%?!! Because of socialist obama!

Ignorance on top of ignorance with a side of um... IGNORANCE! You make the erroneous assumption that the pie of wealth is finite. That is the great lie of socialism.
It proves capitalism, restrained by our Constitution, is the greatest means of wealth creation and prosperity, that the world has ever seen, and if every other nation followed that recipe the pie would ever expand, and they would have equal wealth. American Christians have used this wealth to spread the Gospel, and help millions all over the world.

I think you better check YOUR nation's Empire, where the sun never set, of abuse, conquest, and genocide.

 

[tourist]

We're down to only 90%?!! Because of socialist obama!

Ignorance on top of ignorance with a side of um... IGNORANCE! You make the erroneous assumption that the pie of wealth is finite. That is the great lie of socialism.
It proves capitalism, restrained by our Constitution, is the greatest means of wealth creation and prosperity, that the world has ever seen, and if every other nation followed that recipe the pie would ever expand, and they would have equal wealth. American Christians have used this wealth to spread the Gospel, and help millions all over the world.

I think you better check YOUR nation's Empire, where the sun never set, of abuse, conquest, and genocide.

Maybe things will pick up with the next president. I thought the wealth was closer to 95%. Build the Keystone Pipeline, more fracking for oil and get the coal industry going again. Perhaps he was referring to the US contributing to 90% of the worlds pollution. If so, that number seems a tad high.

 

[crossnote]

You know, I remember watching an interview with a woman from New York, who's son was killed in the 9/11 attacks. She was crying, and she said that the worst thing about this all isn't her son's death, although tragic, it's that war is being waged against civilians in her son's name. That's what her son's memory is; the deaths of civilians. She's been to visit mothers in Afghanistan who have lost their entire families in drone strikes and the last thing that woman wants is blood in the name of her son's death.

That made me realize this isn't something black and white. It's not a case of good guys and bad guys, it's much, much more complex than that and I see that this all began many years before 9/11. Just as the issues between Palestine and Israel began many years before a few weeks ago.

Well yes, quite a history...

Genesis 16:11-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren

 

[jahsoul]

Re: Attempted Murder of Israel by Islamics

The questions are not stupid, but point on. why don't you just give straight answers?

Again:

Jahsoul,Tell me, do you believe in Allah?

Do you think the Jews should be allowed to have any state in the Land of Israel at all?
What would you do with those Jews? Exterminate them?

Jahsoul, do you deny that Israel's moslem neighbors have been committed to the destruction of Israel ever since 1948 without letup?

Would you like the destruction of Israel?

Are you a believer in Allah?

Are you committed to Islam conquering the world?



Jahsoud, give a straight answer please,
Are you a believer in Allah?



Please stop evading the question,
Would you like the destruction of the State of Israel?

So then you indeed are committed to Islam conquering the world?

Don't shuck & jive, Jahsoul -- please give a straight answer



There is nothing illogical about my questions.

Why don't you give straight answers???

After you give straight answers,
I can address some other things you said.

Go back and reread my last post. You got pretty straight, concise answers...

 

[jahsoul]

Your post is full of innuendo, half-truths, and outright lies. Plus, I WANT my nation to be the strongest on earth, and protect me, my family, our freedom, and way of life from all types of evil, not just muslim evil. I like sausage too, but I'm not crazy about watching it being made. Just as many innocent lives were taken by your gov. and mine in WWII, I thank those who have to actually do the dirty work we all get to benefit from.

Why I can't confirm everything Esanta has said, I do believe in the concept of false flags and I wouldn't put it past out government. Since the rise of progressive presidents, we have placed ourselves in conflicts of other countries, resulting in the lost of life for men who are not even protecting their own country. (sidenote - like I stated in another thread, I could never understand why we have so many "conservative" hawks promoting a progressive foreign policy)

 

[Esanta]

We're down to only 90%?!! Because of socialist obama!

Ignorance on top of ignorance with a side of um... IGNORANCE! You make the erroneous assumption that the pie of wealth is finite. That is the great lie of socialism.
It proves capitalism, restrained by our Constitution, is the greatest means of wealth creation and prosperity, that the world has ever seen, and if every other nation followed that recipe the pie would ever expand, and they would have equal wealth. American Christians have used this wealth to spread the Gospel, and help millions all over the world.

I think you better check YOUR nation's Empire, where the sun never set, of abuse, conquest, and genocide.

The British Empire doesn't exist anymore, and I find its bloody history just as disgusting as America's bloody present.

As for fiat capitalism, it seems to me you're the one who's being ignorant. Tell me, on what bond of value is fiat currency produced? Which institution governs its creation? And how do the government acquire use of that currency?

I'll give you a hint. Through debt, a debt which, for the current practices of financial institutions and banks, is being paid back with more debt.

Aside from that, you are the prime example of why much of the world think Americans are ignorant. You assume the rest of the world wants your model; that everyone regards your financially focused education and commercial societal focus as highly as you do; you have a superiority complex; your idea of foreign democracy is in fact the institution of dictators who promote American interests instead of representing the peoples of their countries; the countries you have invaded, whose citizens you have dehumanized, have immeasurable untapped wealth which seems worth countless lives to you; your political policies are shoved down the throats of foreign peoples you pretend to want to liberate from tyranny - the same people the American public generally fail to understand.

You talk about the British Empire. Why do you think the Royal Family allowed so many of the nations under them to become self governing?

Whether or not you think the world should play the capital-gains game with you and help serve your inherently greedy life-focus is irrelevant to the fact that it's not up to you how they choose to live.

 

[jahsoul]

As for fiat capitalism, it seems to me you're the one who's being ignorant. Tell me, on what bond of value is fiat currency produced? Which institution governs its creation? And how do the government acquire use of that currency?

I'll give you a hint. Through debt, a debt which, for the current practices of financial institutions and banks, is being paid back with more debt.

You totally hit the nail on the head with the issues of our financial system. Our dollar isn't back by anything, and most people don't realize the Reserve is a privately held bank with no true regulations from the government.

But to hit on some of your other points, I believe that the original concept of our government seen at the founding of our nation, while using the Constitution as the rule of law, was an awesome model. What we have now, that we are trying to promote as democracy, not as much.

 

[Esanta]

You totally hit the nail on the head with the issues of our financial system. Our dollar isn't back by anything, and most people don't realize the Reserve is a privately held bank with no true regulations from the government.

But to hit on some of your other points, I believe that the original concept of our government seen at the founding of our nation, while using the Constitution as the rule of law, was an awesome model. What we have now, that we are trying to promote as democracy, not as much.

So do I. Lincoln understood the need for genuine currency and a centralized, citizen government owned bank, overseen by directly elected representatives. America isn't what it set out to be, and it certainly isn't direct democracy so much as oligarchy dressed up nicely.

 

[Agricola]

Here we have a classic example as to how to divert and derail a topic which contains numerous facts which people want to avoid as they prove thier point of view to be wrong and can not be denied or proven wrong.

 

[Esanta]

Here we have a classic example as to how to divert and derail a topic which contains numerous facts which people want to avoid as they prove thier point of view to be wrong and can not be denied or proven wrong.

That was the most bland statement I've ever read.

Here's a nice fun fact for you. Over 1600 Palestinian civilians dead, to Israel's three.

US 'appalled' by 'disgraceful' Israeli shelling of Gaza UN school | World news | theguardian.com

Explain that ^^

Explain how Israel missed the fact that they were targeting a UN designated safe zone full of children, after being given the locations of such safe zones and schools numerous times, again and again. Explain how they could possibly hit that place by mistake. The simple facts are, they hit it on purpose on Sunday, just like they hit another UN school the Wednesday before.

 

[Agricola]

Let us bring this back on track and back to the issue of Civillians being killed.

One of the tactics used by Hamas is to set up firing positions within resendential areas, so when of course missles are fired from those position, IDF return fire to destroy them, which of course means the Palestinians who have been forced to continue to live in thier homes next to the launchers will then die.

Here is a perfect example of this use of human shields in action. THis rocket launcher was blown up, but how many kids were placed next to it? How many families living in the buildings next to this explosion? How many were killed from secondary explosions from the missles?

[video=youtube;IeZEnLRVMJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZEnLRVMJM[/video]

 

[Esanta]

Let us bring this back on track and back to the issue of Civillians being killed.

One of the tactics used by Hamas is to set up firing positions within resendential areas, so when of course missles are fired from those position, IDF return fire to destroy them, which of course means the Palestinians who have been forced to continue to live in thier homes next to the launchers will then die.

Here is a perfect example of this use of human shields in action. THis rocket launcher was blown up, but how many kids were placed next to it? How many families living in the buildings next to this explosion? How many were killed from secondary explosions from the missles?

[video=youtube;IeZEnLRVMJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeZEnLRVMJM[/video]

That's blatant dehumanization. There are nearly 2 million people living in the Gaza strip, a small space, surrounded by walls, like an open air prison. Nomatter where these people fire from, there will be civilians nearby. There was certainly no need to use such high-damage ordinance to take out a rocket launcher, for a start. Secondly, there were NO militants firing from that UN school on Sunday, and nor do I see any evidence of 'human shielding' in your video.

Sounds like a lot of nonsense to me.

 

[Agricola]

That was the most bland statement I've ever read.

Here's a nice fun fact for you. Over 1600 Palestinian civilians dead, to Israel's three.

THe blood of the dead Palestinians is on the hands of HAMAS not Israel. God protects Israel and its population from Hamas Missiles and diverts missles that Iorn Dome misses. It is disgraceful that you use the dead as a scoring system.

US 'appalled' by 'disgraceful' Israeli shelling of Gaza UN school | World news | theguardian.com

Explain that ^^

Explain how Israel missed the fact that they were targeting a UN designated safe zone full of children, after being given the locations of such safe zones and schools numerous times, again and again. Explain how they could possibly hit that place by mistake. The simple facts are, they hit it on purpose on Sunday, just like they hit another UN school the Wednesday before.

Explain why Hamas fire mortars and rockets next to the schools. Explain why Hamas use UN buildings to store missles. Explain why Hamas builds underground factories and storage facilities underneath UN buildings, hospitals and schools.

Explain why no one has dared to report about Hamas missles mis-firing and hitting its own population, explain why every explosion in Gaza is automatically the fault of Israel.

Hamas loves dead Civilians as people like youself get all outraged and angry against Israel, when the real evil scum are Hamas.

 

[Sirk]

THe blood of the dead Palestinians is on the hands of HAMAS not Israel. God protects Israel and its population from Hamas Missiles and diverts missles that Iorn Dome misses. It is disgraceful that you use the dead as a scoring system.



Explain why Hamas fire mortars and rockets next to the schools. Explain why Hamas use UN buildings to store missles. Explain why Hamas builds underground factories and storage facilities underneath UN buildings, hospitals and schools.

Explain why no one has dared to report about Hamas missles mis-firing and hitting its own population, explain why every explosion in Gaza is automatically the fault of Israel.

Hamas loves dead Civilians as people like youself get all outraged and angry against Israel, when the real evil scum are Hamas.

.....and explain why Hamas violated a ceasefire with Israeli trucks in route with food, water, medicine, clothing, mattresses etc.

 

[Agricola]

That's blatant dehumanization. There are nearly 2 million people living in the Gaza strip, a small space, surrounded by walls, like an open air prison. Nomatter where these people fire from, there will be civilians nearby. There was certainly no need to use such high-damage ordinance to take out a rocket launcher, for a start. Secondly, there were NO militants firing from that UN school on Sunday, and nor do I see any evidence of 'human shielding' in your video.

Sounds like a lot of nonsense to me.

Seriously, you are an idiot or just so deluded and devoted to Hamas that you will say anything, even it makes you a complete fool.

Can you prove no-one was living in those houses next to the launcher? Can you prove there were no kids sitting around the corner? What do you suggest they take it out with ? a BB GUn?

You seriously beleive the "its a such a small place there is no where to hide" propaganda? just take a look at the map of Gaza. There are plenty of areas where Hamas can set up its missles without being near civillians.

Ask Egypt why they closed the border with Gaza. If Israel was not attacked daily then the borders would be more open.

The only nonsense on this thread is the rubbish you are coming out with.

 

[PennEd]

The British Empire doesn't exist anymore, and I find its bloody history just as disgusting as America's bloody present.

As for fiat capitalism, it seems to me you're the one who's being ignorant. Tell me, on what bond of value is fiat currency produced? Which institution governs its creation? And how do the government acquire use of that currency?

I'll give you a hint. Through debt, a debt which, for the current practices of financial institutions and banks, is being paid back with more debt.

Aside from that, you are the prime example of why much of the world think Americans are ignorant. You assume the rest of the world wants your model; that everyone regards your financially focused education and commercial societal focus as highly as you do; you have a superiority complex; your idea of foreign democracy is in fact the institution of dictators who promote American interests instead of representing the peoples of their countries; the countries you have invaded, whose citizens you have dehumanized, have immeasurable untapped wealth which seems worth countless lives to you; your political policies are shoved down the throats of foreign peoples you pretend to want to liberate from tyranny - the same people the American public generally fail to understand.

You talk about the British Empire. Why do you think the Royal Family allowed so many of the nations under them to become self governing?

Whether or not you think the world should play the capital-gains game with you and help serve your inherently greedy life-focus is irrelevant to the fact that it's not up to you how they choose to live.

I can't argue with you on our CURRENT economc system, that is a mix of crony capitalism bordering on psuedo fascism. Where the gov. picks winners and losers through various punishment and reward techniques such as grants and regulation. Also your right about the the sickness of big gov. defecit spending, where we have spent trillions by printing money because we are the world's reserve currency and therefore can. THAT is not the type of capitalism I was referring to. We can argue about when the socialist sickness started to infect this nation to not much fruit.
Having said that, I'd ask you which country do other nations send their unaccompanied children to, risking death and sexual assault? Which country is the destination of people in cardboard boats and bathtubs risking drowning and sharks? What is the most diverse country in the world, where you can find someone from every nation on earth living in? Why do people leave everything they have ever known, in most cases even their language, to come to America?

Slavery was eradicated in most countries, but which country fought a war amongst itself to end this evil, NOT BY AN UPRISING BY THE OPPRESSED, but by the blood of the free to liberate the oppressed? We have seen what happens to the world when the vacuum of global power is filled by evil instead of the United States of America. Do I need to recite it? As the U.S. global power shrinks even today we can see the vacuum being filled by evil everywhere from Ukraine to Iraq. Where does the world turn when a natural or man-made disaster hits? WHERE WOULD THIS WORLD BE WITHOUT AMERICA? Are we perfect? No not even a little bit. But we are better than you, and most of us still know it, BECAUSE of that document forged while breaking the OPPRESSION, from guess who? YOU!!!!

What your ilk refuses to acknowledge is that man is depraved and corrupt. The ONLY force EVER proven to successful counter this corruption is COMPETITION (capitalism) and a belief in and accountability to a Higher being. The economic and moral left believes in neither in your heart and soul.

Absurd of you to say the "royal family allowed so many nations to become self-governing". They did so ONLY because they were FORCED to do so for various reasons including at the end of a gun or spear.