The only apparent Messianic Jew I see posting on CC is @BenAvraham.
Would anyone want to ask him to join this discussion with Soy?
Knowing God.
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The only apparent Messianic Jew I see posting on CC is @BenAvraham.
Would anyone want to ask him to join this discussion with Soy?
Please quote where I have said anything personally antagonistic to you or anyone else. People who are quarreling are having voices raised and tempers flaring and are turning it into a shouting match with personal attacks. I agree that quarreling about any topic should be avoided, but I see no justification for describing what I am doing as such. Paul was not saying that all discussions about genealogies and the law are foolish, that it is sinful tk discuss those topics, or that anyone who exhorts people to do good works is condemned.He's just being antagonistic. You KNOW he doesn't follow the full 613 laws. He's just posting to try to get a rise out of people. I can tell because he posted two replies to my one post to try to make me react.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
He's self-condemned - that means he has passed judgment on himself through his own stubborn posts and refusal to repent. So really, he's not doing himself any favors continuing in this sin.
I have not taken the position that anyone is required to obey all 613 laws, so I don’t see how that point is relevant. For example, Deuteronomy 17:18 specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so I am not taking the position that we are all required to do that, but if anyone is the king of Israel, then they are required to do that. Moreover, even if I wasn’t following any of the 613 laws, then it wouldn’t mean that I was wrong about the fact that followers of Christ should follow the example of obedience to the Torah that he set for his followers to follow.
Lets not forget Paul, a pharisee, a student of Gamaliel himself, persecuted and approved the murder of the followers of Jesus who had to be stopped by Jesus himself who made him blind as punishment. Paul did break one or the Covenantal Commandments ( you shall not Kill ) he certainly did and had to be stopped before he killed and emprisonned more of Jesus followers, this is well documented in acts.
Apparently you are unaware of commands in the Torah to kill people guilty of various crimes/sins.
I can start with this: The command is you shall not murder, not kill in general. Otherwise when God would order the killing of certain people He would be breaking His own command. I read from the CJB version because I find the translation more accurate, so here's an example:
Exodus 20:13-
13 “Do not murder.
ז (14) “Do not commit adultery.
ח (15) “Do not steal.
ט (16) “Do not give false evidence against your neighbor.
Now, Paul did have a hand in the persecution of Christians and is guilty of murder for aiding in condemning them, but I just wanted to clarify on the word "kill" vs murder.
Yes, indeed. You are an answer to my prayer.
Please begin reading this thread beginning with Soy's posts #12 and 19, then my reply at #20 and begin trying to facilitate our discussion from that point.
Thanks!
Okay, this is a lot of back and forth, and I seem to get the gist between you @GWH and @Soyeong and I think I see the fundamental misunderstanding. So let me start off by saying, what Soyeong says is correct (although I disagree with some minute details, but the gist is correct). So let me explain and I'll do my best to be thorough and maybe I can resolve this misunderstanding.
Back in the day around the time of Jesus, Jews believed that following all the law is what saved you. Meaning, if you are perfect in the law, that is what mattered.
The Law defined what God considered righteous. It's like a mirror to show us really how dirty we are in comparison to the standard that God set. So to simplify:
Following the Law = Righteousness
Breaking the Law = Sin
When Christ entered the picture, the understanding of salvation went back to Abraham's time, who declared: "He (Abraham) believed in Adonai, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Which was always the basis for salvation. Salvation has always been through belief. When Jesus came, he said he came to save the Jews who walked away from that belief and relied on their own righteousness to follow the Torah/Law. But it's always been grace. (There's more nuance to this but I'm trying to not make it convoluted.)
Now, let's get more nuanced because I think this is where the fundamental misunderstanding is. When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it. God's grace is never a license to sin, or to disregard God's righteous rules. It's literally impossible to follow them all, but God still expects you to try. Because either you are a slave to righteousness (the law) or a slave to sin (lawlessness). You cannot serve 2 masters. That does not mean the law gets you to heaven, it just means God's expectations is that ALL His children are still, to the best of their ability, supposed to follow the law.
You cannot be grafted in as heirs to the promise of Abraham, and create a separate rule set which is founded on Abraham. Being grafted into the tree, means you assimilate into what God started which includes the foundation and that foundation is always obedience as a means of expectation. Again, not that it saves you as grace was always the means, but as the fact that the contract you sign when you say that God is your God, means you will follow His rules, His decrees, His commands. Your life is no longer your own, it is His and He says, follow the rules.
That's where you get the concept of fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The more righteousness you're walking in (the law), the more good fruit you produce (faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, self control, etc). Because righteousness fundamentally changes your heart. It's that new change/new person that makes you a new creature and a son/daughter of God.
I hope that clears everything up. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
Back in the day around the time of Jesus, Jews believed that following all the law is what saved you. Meaning, if you are perfect in the law, that is what mattered.
The Law defined what God considered righteous. It's like a mirror to show us really how dirty we are in comparison to the standard that God set. So to simplify:
Following the Law = Righteousness
Breaking the Law = Sin
When Christ entered the picture, the understanding of salvation went back to Abraham's time, who declared: "He (Abraham) believed in Adonai, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Which was always the basis for salvation. Salvation has always been through belief. When Jesus came, he said he came to save the Jews who walked away from that belief and relied on their own righteousness to follow the Torah/Law. But it's always been grace. (There's more nuance to this but I'm trying to not make it convoluted.)
Now, let's get more nuanced because I think this is where the fundamental misunderstanding is. When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it. God's grace is never a license to sin, or to disregard God's righteous rules. It's literally impossible to follow them all, but God still expects you to try. Because either you are a slave to righteousness (the law) or a slave to sin (lawlessness). You cannot serve 2 masters. That does not mean the law gets you to heaven, it just means God's expectations is that ALL His children are still, to the best of their ability, supposed to follow the law.
You cannot be grafted in as heirs to the promise of Abraham, and create a separate rule set which is founded on Abraham. Being grafted into the tree, means you assimilate into what God started which includes the foundation and that foundation is always obedience as a means of expectation. Again, not that it saves you as grace was always the means, but as the fact that the contract you sign when you say that God is your God, means you will follow His rules, His decrees, His commands. Your life is no longer your own, it is His and He says, follow the rules.
That's where you get the concept of fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The more righteousness you're walking in (the law), the more good fruit you produce (faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, self control, etc). Because righteousness fundamentally changes your heart. It's that new change/new person that makes you a new creature and a son/daughter of God.
I hope that clears everything up. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
Well, I agreed with you through "it's always been grace", but when you got nuanced I think you sounded more Jewish than Messianic by saying "When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it." Where does the NT say we must obey the Torah to be saved?
I know where the NT says Christians/Messianic Jews will cooperate with the Lord's Holy Spirit, such as in Eph. 2:8-10 and Gal. 5:22-23.
Yes, the Spirit's love and the Torah's command may sometimes coincide regarding morality,
but that has to do with living AFTER being saved by grace through faith in Jesus as Messiah and the Lord incarnate, does it not?
Okay, you have addressed a post to me, so now please address one to Soyeong, because if you think Soy's Torahism is correct,
you are NOT my answer to prayer. You might begin by referencing what I said in post #20 and you have my blessing to cite anything
else I said, because I want to learn how a Messianic Jew would respond/witness differently/better than I did. Here is my #20:
You appear to be a Judaizer, but we hope you will become a Christian.
You are correct that the Gospel does not teach cheap grace,
but salvation is via faith/cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit,
which means obeying the Torah has been superseded by divine love.
Thanks for joining our discussion. Hopefully, your help will keep it progressing rather than looping.
I just don't subscribe to the protestant version of Grace due to Hebrews warning of trampling it. That doesn't make me less Messianic. But to answer your questions, where does it say we must obey the Torah to be saved?Well, I agreed with you through "it's always been grace", but when you got nuanced I think you sounded more Jewish than Messianic by saying "When it comes to the law, we are still expected to follow it." Where does the NT say we must obey the Torah to be saved?
I know where the NT says Christians/Messianic Jews will cooperate with the Lord's Holy Spirit, such as in Eph. 2:8-10 and Gal. 5:22-23.
Yes, the Spirit's love and the Torah's command may sometimes coincide, but that has to do with living AFTER being saved by grace through faith in Jesus as Messiah and the Lord incarnate, does it not?
Okay, you have addressed a post to me, so now please address one to Soyeong, because if you think Soy's Torahism is correct,
you are NOT my answer to prayer. You might begin by referencing what I said in post #20 and have my blessing to cite anything
else I said, because I want to learn how a Messianic Jew would respond/witness differently/better than I did. Here is my #20:
You appear to be a Judaizer, but we hope you will become a Christian.
You are correct that the Gospel does not teach cheap grace,
but salvation is via faith/cooperating with the indwelling Holy Spirit,
which means obeying the Torah has been superseded by divine love.
Thanks for joining our discussion. Hopefully, your help will keep it progressing rather than looping.
Lawlessness again = breaking the law. These are people who profess Jesus as Lord and yet, aren't following the rules.
Whose house fell? The ones that didn't put Christ's words into practice, which is obedience.
Since God hates sin (Proverbs 6:16-19), righteousness and righteous works is what God wants.
Seems pretty straight forward.
Look at the word choice, eternal deliverance for those who "obey" him. Again, points to obedience and a means for salvation.
There's so much more, Romans 1:5, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:14-26, Revelation 22:14, Revelation 14:12 and that's not including any of the parables that Jesus preaches on either.
Salvation isn't a goal post that you hit. It's a daily, picking up your cross and walking with it and the goal post is ever moving because it's Christ as judge that is the goal post. So the idea that you walk passed a certain point in time that you can point to, ignores the concepts like "working out your salvation with fear and trembling". Salvation is an agreement between two parties. Christ took the punishment for our failures of the law, but Christ himself said he didn't come to abolish it. To argue that it doesn't apply anymore or that its irrelevant, is by definition abolishment.
Like I said, there are issues but I saw the fundamental misunderstanding and that's what I went with. To address everything would take far too long in 1 message. The basis for what he's arguing is correct, but yes, there are issues.
It's the word "superseded" which gives the impression of abolishment. Divine love was always around since before the creation of the universe. God's attributes don't change, just how He deals with humans. Like a child, you have to start somewhere and grow on that understanding which is how I view scripture. It's progressive understanding and revelation, but the previous aren't rendered void.
Okay, I'm going to address Soy now.
That response indicates ignorance of my post stating the fact that the Pharisee Paul did not confess to twisting the Torah
in Phil. 3:4-6. Please read that passage, Acts 8:1 and 22:1-5 and 26:4-11 before replying again, so our discussion can move forward.
Thanks.
(@Soyeong ) ,
I want to start off by fixing this which is the word for "know" (yada) as a means of gaining it via experience. That's kind of half true but really the context behind yada is knowing someone so intimately that you understand them at the deepest level. It's why that word is linked to marriage and its the same word that is used to "know" God. We are supposed to have that same deep knowing of God since we are likened to be His spouse. And as you rightly put, the Torah is a means to help us know/understand God.
There is a difference between God's law and the ceremonial law (Levitical). The destruction of the 1st temple had to do with rejection to God, same with the 2nd temple as they were worshiping other Gods IN God's temple. Levitical law was separate from God's laws. God's laws are still expected to be done, but Levitical law was sectional and only under certain conditions. Like, having a temple and concerning the tribe of Levi which required them to be the descendants of Aaron.
I will say though that there is God's laws and then there's Jewish interpretation of God's laws which aren't the same thing, which is why Jesus broke humans laws that added/defined God's laws like you can't shuck corn to eat. Or not starting a fire meant you can't cook meat to eat. But that doesn't mean Jesus was a sinner or broke God's laws.
For the most part I agree with your arguments and see what you're saying in general, not gonna nit-pick your responses but just wanted to comment on those things. And you're correct that some laws were for specific people like women, kings, men, diseased people etc, so it was conditional. So essentially you follow what applies.
I want to start off by fixing this which is the word for "know" (yada) as a means of gaining it via experience. That's kind of half true but really the context behind yada is knowing someone so intimately that you understand them at the deepest level. It's why that word is linked to marriage and its the same word that is used to "know" God. We are supposed to have that same deep knowing of God since we are likened to be His spouse. And as you rightly put, the Torah is a means to help us know/understand God.
There is a difference between God's law and the ceremonial law (Levitical). The destruction of the 1st temple had to do with rejection to God, same with the 2nd temple as they were worshiping other Gods IN God's temple. Levitical law was separate from God's laws. God's laws are still expected to be done, but Levitical law was sectional and only under certain conditions. Like, having a temple and concerning the tribe of Levi which required them to be the descendants of Aaron.
I will say though that there is God's laws and then there's Jewish interpretation of God's laws which aren't the same thing, which is why Jesus broke humans laws that added/defined God's laws like you can't shuck corn to eat. Or not starting a fire meant you can't cook meat to eat. But that doesn't mean Jesus was a sinner or broke God's laws.
For the most part I agree with your arguments and see what you're saying in general, not gonna nit-pick your responses but just wanted to comment on those things. And you're correct that some laws were for specific people like women, kings, men, diseased people etc, so it was conditional. So essentially you follow what applies.
Well, good, but before you do that, it might be helpful for me to share my understanding of who is a Messianic Jew,
which is a Christian of Jewish heritage, who disavows the need to obey the Torah for salvation but continues to observe
various Jewish practices, such as the Passover seder. My Scriptural basis for this view includes Acts 15:5-11, Rom. 2:5-29,
3:20-5:11 and 10:16-11:32.
I just saw your post to Soy, so may I emphasize that the issue is God's requirement for salvation. Thanks.
I understand your definition, but I hope you realize that isn't the definition. So to call someone less Messianic, is like me calling you less of a Christian. It's rude isn't it? Because I can go and take a census in my congregation and ask everyone to define "Messianic" and they'll all disagree with you.
By the way, Paul continued to sacrifice after his conversation with Christ. You might want to look into it. Evidence is in the book of Acts.
The New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so those who want nothing to do with God's gift of the Torah also want nothing to do with coming under the New Covenant.
No one has ever been required to obey all 613. For example, Deuteronomy 17:18 specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so anyone who is not the king is not required to do that. When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple, then the condition for their return to the land was to return to obedience to the Torah, which contains laws in regard to Temple practice, so when there are laws that we can't currently follow, then we should nevertheless be faithful to obey the laws that we can follow.
Please respond to my reply to those verses.
God repeatedly called for His children to repent from our disobedience to the Law of Moses throughout the Bible and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), but it never once calls for us to repent from our obedience to it.Every kind of person has already replied and witnessed to Soy. FOR YEARS. Now it's up to him to repent.
There is nothing about mentioning the 613 laws that means that Christ died in vain. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20) while the way to reject what he accomplished would be by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem, us from.
Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and following what Christ taught is necessary for followers of Christ.
If it is legalism for God to graciously teach us to obey the Torah and it is legalism for Jesus to set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, then "legalism" would be a good thing, but that is not what I think that it means. God has graciously taught us instructions for our own good for how to have an intimate relationship with Him through connecting with Him in every aspect of our lives and we have the delight of getting experience following those instructions, but you can call it "legalism" if you want to completely miss the point.
The Gospel message to repent from our disobedience to the Torah for the Kingdom of God is at hand is directly connected to the way that we will be living in the Millennial Kingdom. The fact that some laws can't currently be follow does not mean that we should not delight in getting to follow the laws that we can follow. Do you agree that the following verse accurately describe the 613 laws?:
Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect,
refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the honeycomb.
11 By them your servant is warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
It looks like you are merely impersonating a Messianic Jew, so never mind about being an answer to prayer.
Definition per Google:
A Messianic Jew is a person of Jewish ethnicity who believes that Jesus (referred to by his Hebrew name, Yeshua) is the promised Jewish Messiah. This movement combines distinct Christian theological beliefs with traditional Jewish cultural and religious practices.
Core Beliefs
Jesus as Messiah: Believing that Jesus is the divine Son of God and the Savior who died for human sins.
Jewish Identity: Maintaining that following Jesus does not erase a person's Jewish heritage, but rather fulfills it.
Scripture: Accepting both the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the New Testament as holy and inspired text.
Practices and Lifestyle
Shabbat and Holidays: Celebrating the Saturday Sabbath and biblical Jewish holidays like Passover and Rosh Hashanah.
Traditions: Using traditional items like prayer shawls (tallit) and head coverings (yarmulke), alongside services held in Messianic synagogues.
Dietary and Cultural Customs: Observing kosher laws or other cultural markers to varying degrees depending on the individual congregation
Perspectives from Other Faiths
Mainstream Judaism: Views Messianic Judaism as a form of Christianity rather than Judaism. Mainstream Jewish authorities state that accepting Jesus as the Messiah and a divine figure is fundamentally incompatible with traditional Jewish thought.
Christianity: Scholars and major Christian denominations generally classify Messianic Judaism as a Protestant or evangelical Christian sect due to its core belief in the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, though with a distinct Jewish cultural expression.
I knew a Messianic Jewish pastor and worshipped with his congregation,
who did not seem to elevate the Torah to be equal with the New Testament Gospel,
so you and Soy seem to be impostors IMO.
Thus, perhaps I will try to contact @BenAvraham, who seems genuine,
so if he agrees with your Torahism, I will be surprised.
Happy trails!
