Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Lucy-Pevensie

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Dec 20, 2017
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I'm not going to dismiss it. What I'm going to say is that this is a conquest of the LAND. In both instances. And they both pertain to Israel ONLY.

The Exodus likewise pertains to Israel and the land only. The Church is nowhere to be found.

The Church has absolutely nothing to do with EITHER conquest. It's not for them is not by them and it they are not even in proximity per Rev 5:9.
It's tea time for me anyway. I'm not likely to get back online after that tonight.
Beside that, the 2nd coming deserves it's own thread.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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AGREED! (y)


That's why I've repeatedly pointed out:

--the LAST trump / trumpet (Paul's epistles)

--the SEVEN [judgment] Trumpets (Rev)

--the GREAT Trumpet (Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13)


all being distinct. ;)
You would have an impossible time proving that since the context surrounding the usage of the 7th trump in conjunction with the return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection are consistent through scripture.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You are mistaken. The last refuge is "ignore". I have been patient but it's time to bid you farewell.
You would do well to read every single solitary posts made by TDW. Educate yourself instead of preaching what you do not understand.
Smart man
The back and forth is unfruitful.

It is invincible ignorance.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Irony

A postribber pointing out " left behind"

I wont go there.

Chuckle chuckle
Hey, Ab, will you "go there" to Acts 24:15? "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
What is clear here is a SINGLE resurrection for the "righteous" and a single resurrection for the "wicked".

Now, with this in mind, we have 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Obviously Jesus Christ is the FIRST to be resurrected, then "those who belong to Him", again the wording indicates a SINGLE resurrection.

Then we have Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The context here refers to the tribulational martyrs who have been resurrected and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And their resurrection is described as the FIRST resurrection.

So, we have 2 resurrections noted in Acts 24:15; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Then we have a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", that being all saved people.
Finally, we have tribulational martyrs resurrected AFTER the tribulation and THAT resurrection is described as the FIRST.

So, can you explain how there can be a pre-trib resurrection, then a post-trib resurrection and all of that can be described as one single resurrection?

You can ignore me, but the question stands. So ignoring my question will clearly reflect whether you can defend your position or refute mine.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ Again...

Consider the following:

Young's Literal Translation -

"and each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his proper order [/RANK],

[1] a first-fruit Christ, [<--note: NO definite article here]

[2] afterwards those [plural] who are the Christ's, in his presence,"


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



Smith's Literal Translation -

And each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own order [/RANK]:

[1] the [<--NO definite article here] first fruit Christ;

[2] then they [plural] of Christ in his arrival."


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



...because of the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] Him" thing, we / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") fall into RANK #1 (as "a KIND [a CERTAIN] of firstfruit" James 1:18 [i.e. meaning there is more than ONE "kind"]; God "has chosen [G138 - *heilato/haireo] you firstfruit" 2Th2:13)

[*- 'Probably akin to airo [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer' - 'I raise, lift up, take away, remove'... and related also to the word "arren/arsena [G730]" (Rev12:13 - "[which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [G730]");
See also 1Cor12:12 - "For even as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also the Christ," (see also Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence], re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")]




Colossians 3:1-4 -

"1 If then you have been raised with [one word; G4862+G1453] Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things above, not the things on the earth. 3 For you have died, and your life has been hidden [PERFECT indicative] with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Christ in God. 4 When Christ your life may be revealed, then you also will appear with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him in glory."








[again, "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, Rev14:4 / Lev23:17 [2nd mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23) "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--that ain't US... See 1Cor10:17 "...we being many ARE ONE BREAD, and ONE BODY" and 1Cor5:7 "...ye are UNleavened")]
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Paul's Last trump is the last of a series that will be sounded WAY before the 7th trumpet. Why try and build a doctrine from one verse? Read ALL of Paul's writings on the rapture. It will come JUST before wrath. Do we throw that out because John wrote of 7 trumpets that would come later.

No, we don't throw out scripture, we UNDERSTAND it: Paul's rapture is just before wrath and in Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. How amazing then, John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter!
Paul's last Trump sounds before the 7th Trump?

You must be reading Aesop's Fables for your eschatology, because the Last and 7th Trump are one and the same
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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^ Again...

Consider the following:

Young's Literal Translation -

"and each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his proper order [/RANK],

[1] a first-fruit Christ, [<--note: NO definite article here]

[2] afterwards those [plural] who are the Christ's, in his presence,"


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



Smith's Literal Translation -

And each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own order [/RANK]:

[1] the [<--NO definite article here] first fruit Christ;

[2] then they [plural] of Christ in his arrival."


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



...because of the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] Him" thing, we / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") fall into RANK #1 (as "a KIND [a CERTAIN] of firstfruit" James 1:18 [i.e. meaning there is more than ONE "kind"]; God "has chosen [G138 - *heilato/haireo] you firstfruit" 2Th2:13)

[*- 'Probably akin to airo [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer' - 'I raise, lift up, take away, remove'... and related also to the word "arren/arsena [G730]" (Rev12:13 - "[which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [G730]");
See also 1Cor12:12 - "For even as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also the Christ," (see also Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence], re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")]




Colossians 3:1-4 -

"1 If then you have been raised with [one word; G4862+G1453] Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things above, not the things on the earth. 3 For you have died, and your life has been hidden [PERFECT indicative] with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Christ in God. 4 When Christ your life may be revealed, then you also will appear with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him in glory."








[again, "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, Rev14:4 / Lev23:17 [2nd mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23) "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--that ain't US... See 1Cor10:17 "...we being many ARE ONE BREAD, and ONE BODY" and 1Cor5:7 "...ye are UNleavened")]
Unreadable Chaos
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Already have.

At the 7th and final trumpet Jesus regins forevermore, He reigns with the righteous, judges the wicked, and rewards His saints. The 7th trumpet is also the time of the post-tribulation rapture, and resurrection.

I've proved it with these verses. Good luck undoing what I just proved to you happens at the 7th trumpet.

Isaiah 27:13
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:52
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Revelation 11:15-18
Yes they live in denial of Gods simple presented truth, man's pride in maintaining a false teaching

I shared once with Baptist pastor the many scriptures concerning the pre-trib rapture claims, and how they are nothing more than the second coming, last day resurrection, we researched the scripture for a couple hours

Conclusion: He was convinced the pre-trib rapture was a false teaching,but would not exclude it in his sermons, as it was a doctrinal statement in the denomination he agreed to uphold when being hired to be pastor, he had no plans on resigning because of his provided housing, pension, and monthly paycheck?

Runningman, many are caught in the same trap of the evil one, with provisions tied to the teaching,its that deep in many denominations, sad

Many come on forums that are prophecy Guru's at their local church, to deny the pre-trib rapture means to walk away from their fame, notoriety, and personal egos

Sorta like the Rich man, when Jesus said sell everything and give it to the poor, come follow me, and he walked away?

Theyare caught up into "Self" the pride of man
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Paul's last Trump sounds before the 7th Trump?

You must be reading Aesop's Fables for your eschatology, because the Last and 7th Trump are one and the same
Consider:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ylt -

"because the Lord himself,

in a shout [/an arousing outcry],

in the voice of a chief-messenger [no definite article],

and in the trump/trumpet of God [also no definite article here],

shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"



So, first off when considering the above verse and the following phrase,

"in the LAST trumpet,"

...and noting the advice of those instructing in "hermeneutics" (the interpretation of scripture): to view a word within the writings of the same author first, before venturing outside of the same author, to determine a word's usage...

...note how Paul uses this word [G4536 - trumpet] in another place in his epistles:

"...if trumpet [G4536] gives an INDISTINCT [G82] sound, who shall prepare-himself for/unto battle?" 1Cor14:8...


...meaning, differing "trumpets" are "sounded" in differing ways [/patterns], for differing "PURPOSES" (just like Numbers 10:1-10 shows).


[more... but this is enough to consider, for one post]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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[Paul]

3x - [G4536 - trumpet]

1 Corinthians 14:8 N-NFS
GRK: ἐὰν ἄδηλον σάλπιγξ φωνὴν δῷ
NAS: For if the bugle produces
KJV: For if the trumpet give an uncertain
INT: if an uncertain a trumpet sound gives


1 Corinthians 15:52 N-DFS
GRK: τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι σαλπίσει γάρ
NAS: at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound,
KJV: the last trump: for
INT: the last trumpet a trumpet will sound indeed

1 Thessalonians 4:16 N-DFS
GRK: καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται
NAS: of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God,
KJV: and with the trump of God: and
INT: and with trumpet of God will descend
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,765
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Consider:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ylt -

"because the Lord himself,

in a shout [/an arousing outcry],

in the voice of a chief-messenger [no definite article],

and in the trump/trumpet of God [also no definite article here],

shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"



So, first off when considering the above verse and the following phrase,

"in the LAST trumpet,"

...and noting the advice of those instructing in "hermeneutics" (the interpretation of scripture): to view a word within the writings of the same author first, before venturing outside of the same author, to determine a word's usage...

...note how Paul uses this word [G4536 - trumpet] in another place in his epistles:

"...if trumpet [G4536] gives an INDISTINCT [G82] sound, who shall prepare-himself for/unto battle?" 1Cor14:8...


...meaning, differing "trumpets" are "sounded" in differing ways [/patterns], for differing "PURPOSES" (just like Numbers 10:1-10 shows).


[more... but this is enough to consider, for one post]
"last trumpet/trumpet of God"
Wonderful thank you. I have been conducting a study of trumpets for the last couple of weeks......It's definitely tricky.......:unsure::coffee:
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,765
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[Paul]

3x - [G4536 - trumpet]

1 Corinthians 14:8 N-NFS
GRK: ἐὰν ἄδηλον σάλπιγξ φωνὴν δῷ
NAS: For if the bugle produces
KJV: For if the trumpet give an uncertain
INT: if an uncertain a trumpet sound gives


1 Corinthians 15:52 N-DFS
GRK: τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι σαλπίσει γάρ
NAS: at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound,
KJV: the last trump: for
INT: the last trumpet a trumpet will sound indeed

1 Thessalonians 4:16 N-DFS
GRK: καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ καταβήσεται
NAS: of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God,
KJV: and with the trump of God: and
INT: and with trumpet of God will descend
Isa 27:13
So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Eze 34:12-13
“As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day.
“And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Eze 34:23-24
“I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.
“And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Could you provide the verse or passage where that is obviously stated?


Why shouldn't the vast majority (over 99%) of the church already be in heaven,? Since by the time the rapture gets around, whether pre or post trib, not very many will be left on earth to rapture. So of course the "church" will be seen in heaven. In fact, EVERY believer from Adam on is in heaven now.


Since post tribbers have actual verses that actually say what we believe (which is WHY we believe the rapture is post trib), why do you even bring up "ignorance"?

It seems better to apply that word to those who have NO clear verses about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

You don't have any, and you know it. Or we'd all have seen it or them by now.

You don't have an ace up your sleeve.
Did you not notice that just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse (4:17) He mentions concering times, The Day of the Lord? Why would Paul do that? It is because there will be no time between church age and the start of the DAY. One moment it will be church age, the the sudden rapture, and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord OR the Day of His wrath.

Did you not read that Jesus will bring WITH HIM those who have died in Christ? They much return to earth to get their BODIES back. Yes, the vast majority of the church will be in heaven but Jesus brings their spirits back with Him.

Then Paul gives us a paradigm: two groups of people with two totally different results at the same moment in time. Those alive and in Christ get raptured, and so get to "live together with Him," but the THEY and THEM who are not "In Christ" get "sudden destruction. Paul then compares the sudden destruction with God's wrath - THEY and THEM get appointments for His wrath, but those in Christ get raptured.

How many are the dead in Christ? We can only guess but many billions. I would not say 99% but the dead in Christ will be more than those who are alive and in Christ. But at the rapture, must believe all children go. So those who are alive and remain may well be half the world's population.

Since by the time the rapture gets around, whether pre or post trib, not very many will be left on earth to rapture.
Sorry, but at the REAL time of the rapture, people are going to be saying "peace and safety." I cannot picture anyone saying that after the days of GT. I think you are incorrect in this statement.

In fact, EVERY believer from Adam on is in heaven now.
I agree with you here.

Since post tribbers have actual verses that actually say what we believe (which is WHY we believe the rapture is post trib), why do you even bring up "ignorance"?
Sorry, my friend, the truth is, there is no single verse anywhere that tells us whether Paul's rapture will be pre, mid, or post. If there was such a verse, this would never be the main conversation in forums. People have been disagreeing on this for years.

I wonder if you noticed what you just did? I showed you the raptured church in heaven before the "trib" and you just blew it off as if they were dead saints. Did you notice there is not one hint in their description that they are dead - only spirits? "16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."

It's OK. Pretribbers read all your favorite posttrib scriptures differently than you do. My point? I SHOWED YOU AN ACTUAL VERSE. Pretribbers DO have actual verses. You just read all of them differently.

By the way, I said "ignorant" of the scriptures because YOU said:
( Post 2362)
"The Olivet Discourse teaches post-tribulation rapture before the wrath of God "
Please show us ONE SCRIPTURE that would even hint of the wrath of God After the trib. How do you come up with these things? John saw God's wrath starting at the 6th seal.

You have seen verse after verse proving pretrib, but you blow them all off. I know! It makes you feel good to sound off and say we have no verses.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Did you not notice that just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse (4:17) He mentions concering times, The Day of the Lord? Why would Paul do that? It is because there will be no time between church age and the start of the DAY. One moment it will be church age, the the sudden rapture, and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord OR the Day of His wrath.

Did you not read that Jesus will bring WITH HIM those who have died in Christ? They much return to earth to get their BODIES back. Yes, the vast majority of the church will be in heaven but Jesus brings their spirits back with Him.

Then Paul gives us a paradigm: two groups of people with two totally different results at the same moment in time. Those alive and in Christ get raptured, and so get to "live together with Him," but the THEY and THEM who are not "In Christ" get "sudden destruction. Paul then compares the sudden destruction with God's wrath - THEY and THEM get appointments for His wrath, but those in Christ get raptured.

How many are the dead in Christ? We can only guess but many billions. I would not say 99% but the dead in Christ will be more than those who are alive and in Christ. But at the rapture, must believe all children go. So those who are alive and remain may well be half the world's population.


Sorry, but at the REAL time of the rapture, people are going to be saying "peace and safety." I cannot picture anyone saying that after the days of GT. I think you are incorrect in this statement.

I agree with you here.


Sorry, my friend, the truth is, there is no single verse anywhere that tells us whether Paul's rapture will be pre, mid, or post. If there was such a verse, this would never be the main conversation in forums. People have been disagreeing on this for years.

I wonder if you noticed what you just did? I showed you the raptured church in heaven before the "trib" and you just blew it off as if they were dead saints. Did you notice there is not one hint in their description that they are dead - only spirits? "16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."

It's OK. Pretribbers read all your favorite posttrib scriptures differently than you do. My point? I SHOWED YOU AN ACTUAL VERSE. Pretribbers DO have actual verses. You just read all of them differently.

By the way, I said "ignorant" of the scriptures because YOU said:

Please show us ONE SCRIPTURE that would even hint of the wrath of God After the trib. How do you come up with these things? John saw God's wrath starting at the 6th seal.

You have seen verse after verse proving pretrib, but you blow them all off. I know! It makes you feel good to sound off and say we have no verses.
Yes....(y)
1 Thessalonians 4:13 thru 5:11 need to be taken as a unit. The pretrib rapture is indelibly stamped on these passages. You just can't miss it.......unless you have blinders on....:oops:
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Yes they live in denial of Gods simple presented truth, man's pride in maintaining a false teaching

I shared once with Baptist pastor the many scriptures concerning the pre-trib rapture claims, and how they are nothing more than the second coming, last day resurrection, we researched the scripture for a couple hours

Conclusion: He was convinced the pre-trib rapture was a false teaching,but would not exclude it in his sermons, as it was a doctrinal statement in the denomination he agreed to uphold when being hired to be pastor, he had no plans on resigning because of his provided housing, pension, and monthly paycheck?

Runningman, many are caught in the same trap of the evil one, with provisions tied to the teaching,its that deep in many denominations, sad

Many come on forums that are prophecy Guru's at their local church, to deny the pre-trib rapture means to walk away from their fame, notoriety, and personal egos

Sorta like the Rich man, when Jesus said sell everything and give it to the poor, come follow me, and he walked away?

Theyare caught up into "Self" the pride of man
That would explain why they will spend so much time and energy defending something that isn't in the scripture. They aren't interested in the integrity of the scripture, rather pet doctrines like the pre-trib rapture. If you'll notice, they're on a mission here and it isn't to spread the truth.

We can counter this by teaching people to study the Bible on their own. People who don't know the Bible well enough are more vulnerable to falling victim to false doctrines just out of sheer innocent ignorance.

What's most chilling about this is that when you prove the rapture is post-trib they don't care. They just flat out reject it and pivot to something else.

Due to demonstrating a level of blindness rarely seen by sincere Bible scholars, I find it hard to believe it's genuine. It's probably just like you said: they're too proud to let go of the false doctrine even though deep down they know the truth.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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That would explain why they will spend so much time and energy defending something that isn't in the scripture. They aren't interested in the integrity of the scripture, rather pet doctrines like the pre-trib rapture. If you'll notice, they're on a mission here and it isn't to spread the truth.

We can counter this by teaching people to study the Bible on their own. People who don't know the Bible well enough are more vulnerable to falling victim to false doctrines just out of sheer innocent ignorance.

What's most chilling about this is that when you prove the rapture is post-trib they don't care. They just flat out reject it and pivot to something else.

Due to demonstrating a level of blindness rarely seen by sincere Bible scholars, I find it hard to believe it's genuine. It's probably just like you said: they're too proud to let go of the false doctrine even though deep down they know the truth.
If a person is in error and scriptural truth is shown to them, when they receive it and change their belief and teaching they are part of those that escaped the deceivers

When a person is shown the truth and they reject it, and maintain their teaching and belief, they are the deceiver
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Did you not notice that just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse (4:17) He mentions concering times, The Day of the Lord? Why would Paul do that? It is because there will be no time between church age and the start of the DAY. One moment it will be church age, the the sudden rapture, and the next moment it is the Day of the Lord OR the Day of His wrath.
Your claim of "no time between chruch age and start of the DAY" is just a construct. You have no evidence.

btw, I asked Ab, so I'll ask you as well.

Acts 24:15 says " and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

And 1 Cor 15:23 also indicates by the wording that there will be a SINGLE resurrection for "those who belong to Him".

And finally, Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of martyred saints as the FIRST resurrection, in contrast to the unbelievers, who will make up the SECOND resurrection.

All of which shows that all believers will be resurrected/raptured in one event, called the FIRST resurrection. And that is after the Tribulation.

Explain that.

Did you not read that Jesus will bring WITH HIM those who have died in Christ?
Sure did.

They much return to earth to get their BODIES back. Yes, the vast majority of the church will be in heaven but Jesus brings their spirits back with Him.
Show me a verse where raptured/resurrected believers go to heaven.

Sorry, but at the REAL time of the rapture, people are going to be saying "peace and safety." I cannot picture anyone saying that after the days of GT.
Sure. It is pure speculation that the "heat" of the wrath will be constant throughout the Trib. It will be during a lull in the action when people will say that.

Sorry, my friend, the truth is, there is no single verse anywhere that tells us whether Paul's rapture will be pre, mid, or post.
2 Thess 2:1-3 is quite clearly speaking of the rapture being at the Second Coming.

If there was such a verse, this would never be the main conversation in forums.
Well, lots of people just ignore/reject truth.

I wonder if you noticed what you just did? I showed you the raptured church in heaven before the "trib" and you just blew it off as if they were dead saints.
Because they ARE. They haven't received their resurrection bodies yet. They WILL when Jesus comes back to earth. See above.

Did you notice there is not one hint in their description that they are dead - only spirits? "16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."
Do you really think that the souls/spirits of the dearly departed will still get hungry, cold?

It's OK. Pretribbers read all your favorite posttrib scriptures differently than you do. My point? I SHOWED YOU AN ACTUAL VERSE. Pretribbers DO have actual verses. You just read all of them differently.
What you pretribbers don't have is any verse that indicates that raptured believers go to heaven. That's your achilles heel.

You have seen verse after verse proving pretrib, but you blow them all off.
The ONLY VERSE that would prove pretrib rapture is a verse that clearly shows raptured believers going to heaven. That's the ONLY WAY to prove your theory.

I know! It makes you feel good to sound off and say we have no verses.
This isn't about my feel good. It's about truth. And 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the truth. But, as you have said, you guys read verses "differently".

It is obvious that only one side can be right. And without any verses saying that raptured believers go to heaven, you CAN'T be right.

Esp since 2 Thess 2:1-3 proves otherwise.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Yes....(y)
1 Thessalonians 4:13 thru 5:11 need to be taken as a unit. The pretrib rapture is indelibly stamped on these passages. You just can't miss it.......unless you have blinders on....:oops:
Well, for one thing, many people *do* take a mis-step just here, by taking on the faulty definition that, say, the "Amill-teachings" supply regarding the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (1Th5:2-3) as though it were merely "a singular 24-hr day," OR merely COMMENCING on the "singular 24-hr day" of His RETURN to the earth at Rev19, neither of which are the BIBLICAL definition of "the Day of the Lord" ;)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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Yes....(y)
1 Thessalonians 4:13 thru 5:11 need to be taken as a unit. The pretrib rapture is indelibly stamped on these passages. You just can't miss it.......unless you have blinders on....:oops:
The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.