What agnosticism and atheism do is dismiss the witness of millions throughout history, to say they know better, based on their (the non-believer's) lack of experience with God. Karaka, that is another demonstration of pride for you.
Let's talk about god
- Thread starter Karaka
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I just have to say though, that you are misrepresenting my position as an agnostic. Basically i m on the edge, i do not find God ( notice the upper case) to be that obvious, and to be honnest with myself i need to ask believers to explain to me how they see God so that i can determine if they are right or not. So basically i m putting myself at your mercy, on a christian website, to convert me. Please go ahead but also please stay respectfull
I have been speaking in more general terms, and did not mean to offend, was just condensing what I have learned of atheists and agnostics after speaking as a born again believer with them extensively over an eight year period
P
pottersclay
Guest
My apologies once again my friend....you have our attention and if you are sincerely seeking let us all take a moment and ask the Lord to bless this chat.
C
Called4Christ
Guest
Hmmm, so are you asking what makes me so sure that God exists? I can tell you that at one point I hated the idea of the God of the bible. I can tell you that I was once filled with so much anger that sometimes people weren't sure how to approach me. I literally loved my anger because it felt like strength- I mean no one would "mess with me". At one point, I believed I was serving a demon and I was perfectly happy about that, I was proud of it even.
While in college God Himself called me and began to transform me; there's no way I could be standing here as who I am today without supernatural, godly intervention. I suppose that's the most "solid" proof I can offer is my own personal transformation. Others here will have the historical and biological knowledge that you might be seeking, but all I can offer is a personal experience of what His love has done for me
While in college God Himself called me and began to transform me; there's no way I could be standing here as who I am today without supernatural, godly intervention. I suppose that's the most "solid" proof I can offer is my own personal transformation. Others here will have the historical and biological knowledge that you might be seeking, but all I can offer is a personal experience of what His love has done for me
When agnostics or atheists ask me about how can I be sure there is a God, I simply answer I am sure there is God, but I can't prove it.
Conversely, no one can prove there is not a God.
Suffice to say, my personal experiences with God are convincing enough to me. I have a relationship with Him, and it is real enough to me that I believe God exists.
Not to mention historical accounts in the bible, and extra biblical books that support what the some of what the bible says about Jesus.
I am tired of trying to debate or argue or convince people that there is a God. Many of them just thrill in the intellectual back and forth, and enjoy making their points. Their minds are not really open, and they are not really seeking with honesty. I have found that when someone is sincerely curious to find an answer to something, they investigate the most original and genuine source available, sometimes in a exhaustive manner.
In this case, the bible and supporting books. If one has not spent something like around at least a thousand hours in such pursuit, I really don't like to even discuss it with them.
We sometimes get posters here who have an agenda, and the agenda is sometimes based on wicked motives.
I write this with all respect to the OP, since I do not know where you stand. And you should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The bible says those who can be trusted with a little, can be trusted with much.
Conversely, no one can prove there is not a God.
Suffice to say, my personal experiences with God are convincing enough to me. I have a relationship with Him, and it is real enough to me that I believe God exists.
Not to mention historical accounts in the bible, and extra biblical books that support what the some of what the bible says about Jesus.
I am tired of trying to debate or argue or convince people that there is a God. Many of them just thrill in the intellectual back and forth, and enjoy making their points. Their minds are not really open, and they are not really seeking with honesty. I have found that when someone is sincerely curious to find an answer to something, they investigate the most original and genuine source available, sometimes in a exhaustive manner.
In this case, the bible and supporting books. If one has not spent something like around at least a thousand hours in such pursuit, I really don't like to even discuss it with them.
We sometimes get posters here who have an agenda, and the agenda is sometimes based on wicked motives.
I write this with all respect to the OP, since I do not know where you stand. And you should be given the benefit of the doubt.
The bible says those who can be trusted with a little, can be trusted with much.
P
pottersclay
Guest
Karaka....May I ask what you have heard about God......and what hinders your belief in his existence?
Mate, all I did was while I was driving home work I said, "God, I really don't know if you exist but I want you to show me that you do." And He did, not right away and not in ways that I'd expect, nor do I really know how He did. Kinda funny someone praying to a God that they don't know exists.
lolThe thing about GOD Is,faith pleases him and Faith Is not based on sensory knowledge,when I say sensory knowledge,I mean things that you can perceive with one or more of your five senses...see,taste,hear,smell or feel.
Faith Is based on believing without seeing.
Somebody might ask,how do I get faith?
The bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.
I guess I'm not a good one to post here, bc I dont have the experiences that you all have or the knowledge through investigation that brought me from defiance to faith. I guess I just believe the bible says Jesus died and rose from the grave and I know that's true. It's just an accepted fact, but without those firsthand encounters of meeting God or having some experience or manifestation, I guess I'll always be wondering what believing does in my life.
I guess I'm supposed to be doing something, but I really don't know what, so
I think im a bit jealous, and i dont know why God picks some ppl to meet with and others he leaves out, but it's not up to me to question. God has the right to do whatever he wants. I just figure he keeps giving chances, and I just hope I can do some good before long. He forgives over and over and Im glad of that because what ive seen of many christians is that they dont.
Do something they dont like, and they put you right out, no chance for anything, just goodbye, and it doesnt even have to be that bad, nothing like the unpardonable sin, sometimes its just a misunderstanding, but for some, that's enough, and its get lost. So my experience with God has been just waiting, but I still believe. Weakly, maybe, but it doesnt make sense to believe in nothing.
But my experience with christians has been mostly distant, and sometimes not very warm or friendly, so i guess that could make some people not believe.
I guess I'm supposed to be doing something, but I really don't know what, so
I think im a bit jealous, and i dont know why God picks some ppl to meet with and others he leaves out, but it's not up to me to question. God has the right to do whatever he wants. I just figure he keeps giving chances, and I just hope I can do some good before long. He forgives over and over and Im glad of that because what ive seen of many christians is that they dont.
Do something they dont like, and they put you right out, no chance for anything, just goodbye, and it doesnt even have to be that bad, nothing like the unpardonable sin, sometimes its just a misunderstanding, but for some, that's enough, and its get lost. So my experience with God has been just waiting, but I still believe. Weakly, maybe, but it doesnt make sense to believe in nothing.
But my experience with christians has been mostly distant, and sometimes not very warm or friendly, so i guess that could make some people not believe.
I wanted to clarify this statement so you will know that Faith Is not based on sensory knowledge but It will come to you through one of your senses,hearing.
The bible says,In Romans 10,how beautiful are the feet of those that preach the gospil of peace and bring glad tidings of good things.
Father God, we lift up to You all who are seeking some measure of knowledge of your ever present mercy grace and peace, especially David and Amy Lord, that they may experience in their heart of hearts Your immeasurable love for us, which You demonstrated through the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross as a propitiatory payment for our sins, that we might be reconciled to You and receive that which You have purposed for us from before the foundation of the world, for we were made in Your image to be reflections of Your love, eternal and immutable in our devotions to You and each other as we gladly serve the body, just as Jesus gladly laid down His life for us, for the joy set before Him in gathering us to Himself. We pray that You reveal Your plan for our lives in ways and means that we can readily accept and recognize as Your hand in our lives Lord, as we seek to walk after You. Extend to us the assurance of our salvation, allowing us to be generous to those less fortunate, thankful in adversity and fair in our judgements of others, careful not to offend with the words of our speech, and a lamp to those who walk in darkness and fear that they may be loosed of the chains that bind them. In Jesus' holy name we pray, amen.
Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
that we may walk the paths of the Most High.
And we shall beat our swords into ploughshares,
and our spears into pruning hooks.
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation—
neither shall they learn war any more.
And none shall be afraid, for the mouth
of the Lord of Hosts has spoken.
Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
that we may walk the paths of the Most High.
And we shall beat our swords into ploughshares,
and our spears into pruning hooks.
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation—
neither shall they learn war any more.
And none shall be afraid, for the mouth
of the Lord of Hosts has spoken.
P
pottersclay
Guest
There are two aspects to our faith.
The first that the object of our faith (Jesus) and what He did to secure our salvation was witnessed in recorded history with many eyewitnesses seeing the resurrected Jesus from the dead.
Then there is the subjective aspect, where millions throughout history have witnessed His saving Life and power in their lives after calling upon Him to save them from sin.
...and why not? He is risen from the dead after conquering sin, death and the devil.
Both aspects of faith (the objective and subjective) need to be embraced.
The first that the object of our faith (Jesus) and what He did to secure our salvation was witnessed in recorded history with many eyewitnesses seeing the resurrected Jesus from the dead.
Then there is the subjective aspect, where millions throughout history have witnessed His saving Life and power in their lives after calling upon Him to save them from sin.
...and why not? He is risen from the dead after conquering sin, death and the devil.
Both aspects of faith (the objective and subjective) need to be embraced.
okay thanks people, that has been a lot of answers... I'm processing all that... I can not be online all the time so I'll be on and off...
so there has been questions about where i stand, which i find legitimate, although i do not want to debate, or push my views, or present facts and arguments, mostly i would like to ask questions and evaluate your answers, and maybe discuss them if you are willing.
I stated that I am an agnostic because i take it to mean that i do not know that God or gods exist. it is a knowledge statement, basically, an abscence of certainty. i feel it is legitimate to ask you guys, who seem to believe with no doubt, how you achieve that certainty. i would go along with pottersclay there. pottersclay is an agnostic just like me, by what he says... and it seems like a reasonable position to me, but one that requires further inquiry.
it has to be noted though, that agnosticism says nothing about belief. pottersclay does not know but he believes and i am glad for his honesty, he is an agnostic theist. i can only respond by saying that i do not know and i do not beleive either, because i think that the default position is to not believe(do new borns believe in jesus? seems not). which i guess makes me an agnostic atheist. but the point is that i'm not saying God doesn't exist, i just haven't found a reason, or experienced anything that makes me believe. So i'm looking around to see if there is such a reason... i'm trying to find out if any god exist. you people might help me, because "something" makes you believe in Jesus. i'd like to understand what.
I am also talking to other people, such as muslims and hindoos as well as hard core atheists, to try to stay open minded. i do not start with the premise that christianity is correct, in a true scientific spirit i start with the premise that god does not exists and now i'm doing my best to disprove that premise. if christianity proves to be the truth, then i'll accept it, same if it is islam or hindouism or buddhism or just plain atheism. those who do not like this approach can ignore that thread of course, i'd like to talk to the others who are willing to do this with me.
an other question was :
Karaka....May I ask what you have heard about God......and what hinders your belief in his existence?
well so far i have heard a lot about various gods, i have read the entire bible, the entire quran and hadith, and part of the hindoo book which i can't spell the name off, i have also been thoroughly trained in science (including biology, physics and cosmology) and i am an avid reader of philosophy. my current interest is mostly epistemology, the philosophy of knowledge, how we know things are true, how we can tell they are true, how we can be certain of anything. From a position of what could be called apatheism, a non belief in god due to a plain lack of interest in the concept, i now find that to be honest with myself i need to look into the matter in depth. it is an important matter after all. i still do not believe in god because i have not so far been convinced and have not experienced god personally like some of you describe. I am not affirming that god doesn't exist i just don't think so. i'm mostly concerned about truth. i'd appreciate a civil and respectfull discussion about this and that is the reason i signed up on this website. i find that drunken discussions about the matter at parties with friends or strangers do not enlighten anybody much so i'm trying another way. please understand that i am not trying to offend anyone and i don't have a hidden agenda beside what i am explaining here. by the sound of it you encountered some no so kind atheists and agnostics in the past, i hope that will not prevent you from discussing those fascinating matters with me. i just believe in discussion and sharing knowledge and trying to figure out what's what. and who can better talk about their beliefs than beleivers? if i just read atheists books and websites i'll never learn anything about belief in God.
if you have any other questions about my motives or positions please shoot, and then i'd like to go into the specific answers you gave me and discuss them, especially the personal experience one, which seem to be a recurent one and not only with you christians.
so there has been questions about where i stand, which i find legitimate, although i do not want to debate, or push my views, or present facts and arguments, mostly i would like to ask questions and evaluate your answers, and maybe discuss them if you are willing.
I stated that I am an agnostic because i take it to mean that i do not know that God or gods exist. it is a knowledge statement, basically, an abscence of certainty. i feel it is legitimate to ask you guys, who seem to believe with no doubt, how you achieve that certainty. i would go along with pottersclay there. pottersclay is an agnostic just like me, by what he says... and it seems like a reasonable position to me, but one that requires further inquiry.
it has to be noted though, that agnosticism says nothing about belief. pottersclay does not know but he believes and i am glad for his honesty, he is an agnostic theist. i can only respond by saying that i do not know and i do not beleive either, because i think that the default position is to not believe(do new borns believe in jesus? seems not). which i guess makes me an agnostic atheist. but the point is that i'm not saying God doesn't exist, i just haven't found a reason, or experienced anything that makes me believe. So i'm looking around to see if there is such a reason... i'm trying to find out if any god exist. you people might help me, because "something" makes you believe in Jesus. i'd like to understand what.
I am also talking to other people, such as muslims and hindoos as well as hard core atheists, to try to stay open minded. i do not start with the premise that christianity is correct, in a true scientific spirit i start with the premise that god does not exists and now i'm doing my best to disprove that premise. if christianity proves to be the truth, then i'll accept it, same if it is islam or hindouism or buddhism or just plain atheism. those who do not like this approach can ignore that thread of course, i'd like to talk to the others who are willing to do this with me.
an other question was :
Karaka....May I ask what you have heard about God......and what hinders your belief in his existence?
well so far i have heard a lot about various gods, i have read the entire bible, the entire quran and hadith, and part of the hindoo book which i can't spell the name off, i have also been thoroughly trained in science (including biology, physics and cosmology) and i am an avid reader of philosophy. my current interest is mostly epistemology, the philosophy of knowledge, how we know things are true, how we can tell they are true, how we can be certain of anything. From a position of what could be called apatheism, a non belief in god due to a plain lack of interest in the concept, i now find that to be honest with myself i need to look into the matter in depth. it is an important matter after all. i still do not believe in god because i have not so far been convinced and have not experienced god personally like some of you describe. I am not affirming that god doesn't exist i just don't think so. i'm mostly concerned about truth. i'd appreciate a civil and respectfull discussion about this and that is the reason i signed up on this website. i find that drunken discussions about the matter at parties with friends or strangers do not enlighten anybody much so i'm trying another way. please understand that i am not trying to offend anyone and i don't have a hidden agenda beside what i am explaining here. by the sound of it you encountered some no so kind atheists and agnostics in the past, i hope that will not prevent you from discussing those fascinating matters with me. i just believe in discussion and sharing knowledge and trying to figure out what's what. and who can better talk about their beliefs than beleivers? if i just read atheists books and websites i'll never learn anything about belief in God.
if you have any other questions about my motives or positions please shoot, and then i'd like to go into the specific answers you gave me and discuss them, especially the personal experience one, which seem to be a recurent one and not only with you christians.
I got you, brother, and part one I'm all for, no problem, but part two, I cant force or claim to have a subjective experience I havent had, God doesnt want a phony. That's why sometimes even in worship i feel like a hypocrit because some of the songs are written in the past tense from the experience of the writer of the lyrics, but as I sing along, inside im thinking, - this didn't happen for me. But i sing in hopes, like calling things that are not as though they are, or rather will be someday. Wow, all the sudden i sound like word of faith, musical version, lol. But i just cant claim for myself feelings or experiences i havent had, not with God. But the experiences with christians havent been all warm and fuzzy, mostly the opposite, but if i mention it here ive seen and know what can happen to some people, so i guess i better not say anything. I can only go by the encounters ive had, both with God and people.