License to Sin

[HeIsHere]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy telling them apart.

That is not the focus of the Letter to the Hebrews.

 

[mailmandan]

That is not the focus of the Letter to the Hebrews.

The letter to the Hebrews focuses on the supremacy of Jesus Christ and the establishment of a new, superior covenant. It was written to encourage these Hebrews to stand firm rather than falling away.

You need to realize though that not everyone in this large group of Hebrew believers were genuine believers, just as we see in Hebrews 4:2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[Delvianna]

Where does the verse, also from 1 John, "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world (1John 2:1-2)." fit in?
This appears pretty once for all to me. No redoing needed.

And what do you do with 1John 2:22? 'Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son."

Those passages don't conflict with the warnings in 1 John though.

In 1 John 2:1–2, he's addressing believers who do sin. His point is that when a believer stumbles, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. The passage is about Christ's continuing intercession for those who repent, it is not a statement that someone can live in persistent, unrepentant sin without consequence.

The same letter goes on to say:

• "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments" (2:3).
• "Whoever says 'I know Him' but does not keep His commandments is a liar" (2:4).
• "No one who abides in Him keeps on practicing sin" (3:6).
• "Whoever practices righteousness is righteous... By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious" (3:7–10).

So John is clearly distinguishing between committing a sin and living a life characterized by sin. If 1 John 2:1–2 meant a believer could never forfeit salvation regardless of how they lived afterward, those later warnings would be pointless (which Paul makes the same point in Romans and the writer of Hebrews makes the same point too).

As for 1 John 2:22, yes, denying that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist. But John never says that is the only way someone can reject Christ. In the same letter he repeatedly warns about those whose lives contradict what they claim to believe. In fact, he says, "Whoever says, 'I know Him,' but does not keep His commandments is a liar" (2:4). So John identifies both false doctrine and persistent disobedience as incompatible with genuinely abiding in Christ.

The issue isn't whether Christ's sacrifice is sufficient because it absolutely is. The issue is whether a person continues to abide in Him (Just like the parable of the vine). John repeatedly makes abiding, obedience, and practicing righteousness the marks of those who truly belong to Christ.

 

[Delvianna]

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

I think your interpretation is possible, but I don't think it's what the text says.

The biggest issue is that nearly every description in Hebrews 6 is redefined into something less than genuine salvation, even though the author never qualifies any of them that way.

You say "enlightened" only means exposed to the light. But Hebrews doesn't simply say they saw the light, it says they were once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come. It's the culmination of all those descriptions together that point to the context of the warning. If none of those things describe a genuine believer, then what other language could they have used? It doesn't make sense.

Also, while metochos ("partaker") can refer to companions in some contexts, words are defined by their context, not merely by every possible lexical meaning. In Hebrews, "partakers" is used positively of believers: "we have become partakers of Christ" (Hebrews 3:14). If the author intended a merely external association with the Holy Spirit, he never says so. The language of Hebrew has different meanings for a single word. That's why you generally see a list, but like I said, the context chooses what the word is. Other languages are like this, Japanese would be a good example, even English does to some extent. Example: Bank can mean by a river or a financial building. Bear can mean an animal, to carry or endure... you get the point.

The same applies to "tasted." While Jesus tasted the vinegar in Matthew 27, that doesn't establish that "taste" always means a brief or superficial experience. Hebrews 2:9 says Jesus "tasted death for everyone." No one argues He only sampled death. The word itself doesn't determine the depth of the experience, the context does.

Regarding verse 9, I don't think the author is saying the people described in verses 4–6 were never saved. He's expressing confidence that his readers will not become like those he has just warned about. We do this all the time: "I'm warning you not to drive drunk, but I'm confident you won't." The confidence doesn't mean the warning doesn't exist.

Also, I think Hebrews 10 strengthens this... The writer warns those who have "received the knowledge of the truth" that if they go on sinning deliberately, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 10:26). He then says they were "sanctified" by the blood of the covenant (Hebrews 10:29) which is language that is much harder to apply to someone who was never truly in Christ.

Ultimately, I don't see anything in Hebrews 6 itself that indicates these people were never saved. Those conclusions come from a theological framework that's being applied, not from the wording of the passage itself. The plain reading is that who ever wrote it, is warning genuine believers about the danger of falling away via sin.

 

[Aaron56]

Then it says, "For it is impossible..." and describes people who were once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, became partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and have fallen away. The warning isn't, "It's impossible for this to happen." The warning is that if it happens, renewal to repentance is impossible.

You have to finish the sentence: "..to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Working backwards: is anyone able to crucify Jesus for themselves? Is anyone about to bring shame upon God?

Simple understanding: "one cannot be born again after being born again." Well, then what if they continue in sin after being born again?

In the same Book we find this: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses."

Simply put: "We cannot crucify, again, the One who has been crucified for us for all time." There is what then? "..a certain fearful expectation of judgement." For the son of God, this may produce repentance and confession. To what end? "When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

This is supposed to be elementary.

 

[Delvianna]

You have to finish the sentence: "..to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Working backwards: is anyone able to crucify Jesus for themselves? Is anyone about to bring shame upon God?

Simple understanding: "one cannot be born again after being born again." Well, then what if they continue in sin after being born again?

In the same Book we find this: "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses."

Simply put: "We cannot crucify, again, the One who has been crucified for us for all time." There is what then? "..a certain fearful expectation of judgement." For the son of God, this may produce repentance and confession. To what end? "When we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

This is supposed to be elementary.

I've already addressed this. Maybe you didn't understand my point?

I said: "The warning is that if it happens, renewal to repentance is impossible."

Then I ask the question: If genuine believers cannot fall away, then why warn them about the consequences of falling away?

And then I sum up my point: Rather, it's warning that those who knowingly reject the once and for all sacrifice after genuinely sharing in its blessings have nowhere else to turn for repentance because there is no other sacrifice beyond Christ's one sacrifice.

Meaning, there's no going back. If you were saved and fell away, that's it. You cannot become "saved" again.

I'll also repeat what I said about this being "elementary".

Yes, Hebrews 6 begins by mentioning elementary teachings, but the list in verses 1–2 doesn't include eternal security. It includes repentance from dead works, faith toward God, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. So the passage itself never identifies eternal security as one of those elementary principles.

 

[Mem]

This is supposed to be elementary.

Wrong! You must have a degree in hairweaving to be saved.

 

[Aaron56]

I've already addressed this. Maybe you didn't understand my point?

I said: "The warning is that if it happens, renewal to repentance is impossible."

Then I ask the question: If genuine believers cannot fall away, then why warn them about the consequences of falling away?

And then I sum up my point: Rather, it's warning that those who knowingly reject the once and for all sacrifice after genuinely sharing in its blessings have nowhere else to turn for repentance because there is no other sacrifice beyond Christ's one sacrifice.

Meaning, there's no going back. If you were saved and fell away, that's it. You cannot become "saved" again.

I'll also repeat what I said about this being "elementary".

Yeah, the operant word is "renewal". There is no need to renew that which has been renewed. They have a Father now Who will certainly get their attention. They cannot be born again since that process is already complete in them by faith in Christ.


Proverbs 3 references the correction expected of a son of God:

My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest His correction;
For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

In Hebrews 12, the Proverbs passage is repeated and further understanding is given:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews, in large part, is about moving on to maturity.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

Any scripture supporting OSAS does not promote having a license to sin.

Well sure it does!

What you people tell everyone is that one is still going to Heaven even IF they were living in sin because you people reject God's warnings in His Word that plainly tell us one can in fact lose their salvation. Here's one you people refuse to accept as you all don't accept all the Lord teaches in His Word (eternal security teachings come from cherry pickers):

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

Keep in mind that the Lord is the One Who instructed Paul to write 2 Timothy 2:12 which is based on we reap what we sow in that if we sow to the flesh (doing sinful stuff) then we reap corruption because one must deny and turn away from the Lord to go engage in sinful behavior which most claiming to be Christians today are engaged in.

Here's another scripture reference you people refuse to accept and believe as the fake preachers teach:

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:7-11 is in fact applicable to Christians and is directly related to God cannot be mocked, we shall reap what we sow we see the Lord teaching in Gal 6:7,8 - The eternal security teachers are literally teaching we do not reap what we sow and in doing so they are mocking the Lord and dividing themselves from the Lord.

Here's a passage ignored by the fake grace teachers that literally tells us that is we do not abide in Christ we shall be cut off

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

These passages tell us that those who have been born again who turn back to living as a sinner are WORSE than they were before they got born again! Amazing how the fake grace teachers butcher scripture!

2 Peter 2:20 (Companion Scripture - Matthew 12:43-45)
For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than
the beginning.

Matthew 12:43-45 (Companion Scripture - 2 Peter 2:20)
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth
none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it
empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in
and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto
this wicked generation.

What's even more amazing about the fake grace teachers is they are continually trying to defend sinful behavior as they seek to convince people that nothing can be done to cause one to not to to Heaven after getting born again including living in sin and this is one of the reasons why the Body of Christ is void of power today..

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

They do not hate sin like they are supposed too.

God knows whether we are holding on to sin or not.

Yep and their sin of teaching fake grace will find them out

 

[Delvianna]

Yeah, the operant word is "renewal". There is no need to renew that which has been renewed. They have a Father now Who will certainly get their attention. They cannot be born again since that process is already complete in them by faith in Christ.


Proverbs 3 references the correction expected of a son of God:

My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest His correction;
For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

In Hebrews 12, the Proverbs passage is repeated and further understanding is given:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Hebrews, in large part, is about moving on to maturity.

I don't disagree that God disciplines His children. Hebrews 12 clearly teaches that, so I agree.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Hebrews 6. You're substituting one concept for another. The text says "fall away." You're changing it to "be disciplined." Those are not the same thing. So arguing Hebrews 12 to prove Hebrews 6 doesn't make sense. These are 2 different concepts.

So in general, you're adding an explanation the author never gives. The author doesn't say they can't be renewed because they never lost salvation. He says they can't be renewed if they fall away. The reason given is in the text itself, they are crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to open shame. How does that become a discussion about Fatherly discipline in Hebrews 12? What does God's discipline of His children have to do with rejecting Christ's sacrifice? Do you see how these two concepts can't be conflated into Hebrews 6?

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

the Context of the Video is about Water Baptismal Regeneration and HE CLEARLY SAYS This is FALSE DOCTRINE ---and IT IS FOLKS ------This Video HE POSTED HERE ----is not about Having A Licence TO SIN ------

Yeah the guy admits Jesus commanded His followers to be water baptized and then says it's all good if one wants to ignore Jesus' command and refuse to obey Jesus so this is about being obedient verse being disobedient

The devil and his messengers are always making a play to convince people that it's OK to reject the Lord's instructions and the leading of the Holy Spirit as they falsely claim one can ignore the Lord and still be saved even as they live in willful disobedience which is living after the flesh in rebellion towards the Lord.

This is the exact same message satan had for Adam and Eve is that you can disobey the Lord and not be separated from Him (spiritual death). The devil was lying then, and he's still lying thru his messengers today who are teaching the same thing!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

The text says "fall away." You're changing it to "be disciplined." Those are not the same thing.

Yeah, that's an example of the devil's shuck and jive that so easily confuses and deceives the eternal security crowd.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

Falling away from the Lord is covered in 2 Timothy 2:12

 

[Thaddeus]

Some would believe Paul's core message to be a licence to sin:
The believer has no righteousness of not committing sin
And yet, to Paul, believing that leads to sin not being a persons master

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

I don't care

Obviously.

I actually prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28) and "eternal security of the believer" (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Meaning we can live in sin and the Lord will allow those to enter in to Heaven after they turn away from the Lord rejecting Him and went back to living in sin which most are doing today.

That's fake grace and is only accepted by those who refuse to accept the whole counsel of God.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore
Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the
living God.

*A person cannot depart from something they were never a part of to begin with
*Notice that this is speaking to "brethren" so this is a warning from the Lord to Christians.

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[tourist]

I actually prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28) and "eternal security of the believer" (Ephesians 1:13-14) over OSAS because of all the negative connections that get attached to it (a license to sin/license for immortality etc..) by those who strongly oppose it. Only a nut-job would embrace and support those negative connotations.

Plenty of reliigous nut-jobs to go around, that's for sure. I prefer your terms too. Good job.

 

[mailmandan]

Obviously.

Meaning we can live in sin and the Lord will allow those to enter in to Heaven after they turn away from the Lord rejecting Him and went back to living in sin which most are doing today.

Straw man argument. (See 1 John 3:9-10)

That's fake grace and is only accepted by those who refuse to accept the whole counsel of God.

Grace is neither merited favor or a license to sin.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

In regard to Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore
Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

God forbid indeed.

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the
living God.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

*A person cannot depart from something they were never a part of to begin with
*Notice that this is speaking to "brethren" so this is a warning from the Lord to Christians.

Just because a letter in the new testament is addressed to "brethren" does not mean that everyone in a group must be a genuine believer. See Hebrews 4:2-3 for example. Hence, the warning. There are those who fall away from a professed faith, who had an outward knowledge of Christian doctrine within a Christian community of believers, but were never saved. (1 John 2:19

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26).

We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God. Professing Christians, who are Gentiles, are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology.

I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off" for unbelief.

Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers.

 

[tourist]

Obviously.






Meaning we can live in sin and the Lord will allow those to enter in to Heaven after they turn away from the Lord rejecting Him and went

Those that are born again, even though they may stumble, do not live in sin. Those that are born again will not turn from the Lord and reject him.

 

[Aaron56]

I don't disagree that God disciplines His children. Hebrews 12 clearly teaches that, so I agree.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Hebrews 6. You're substituting one concept for another. The text says "fall away." You're changing it to "be disciplined." Those are not the same thing. So arguing Hebrews 12 to prove Hebrews 6 doesn't make sense. These are 2 different concepts.

So in general, you're adding an explanation the author never gives. The author doesn't say they can't be renewed because they never lost salvation. He says they can't be renewed if they fall away. The reason given is in the text itself, they are crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to open shame. How does that become a discussion about Fatherly discipline in Hebrews 12? What does God's discipline of His children have to do with rejecting Christ's sacrifice? Do you see how these two concepts can't be conflated into Hebrews 6?

No. You can’t be born again after being born again. There are many verses warning about continuing in sin. This is only one of them.

Consider that the audience is Hebrews: people who are used to offering sacrifices for sin multiple times a year. Their culture and history are based around cleansing festivals, rituals of purity, etc. Here, the author makes it clear: one sacrifice was sufficient. Once you receive THAT, in faith, there is no more sacrifice for sin. One and done.