Yeah preservation of the saints (saved) is better than perseverance of the saints. The guy in the vid is a lordship salvation calvinist.
License to Sin
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Yeah preservation of the saints (saved) is better than perseverance of the saints. The guy in the vid is a lordship salvation calvinist.
That's odd. The New Testament contains warnings written to Christians warning them of what happens if they live in sin.
That's OK, nobody expects those who refuse to accept the entire Word of God as possessing or even understanding the Truth of God's Word since they aren't full gospel.
But one can become CORRUPT after having been born again because what Jesus did at the Cross does not make sowing and reaping of no effect. The Cross does not remove seed time and harvest and those say it does are mocking God claiming one can sow to the flesh and not reap corruption as they claim Gal 6 is a lie. It is not.
This is why the Lord put in 1 John 1:9 saying IF, IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. The fake grace crowd claims 1 John 1:9 is meaningless so they have unrepentant sin on their record as they have become corrupt after having been born again and will not be allowed in to the Kingdom of God because they refused to abide in Christ.
Actually the guy in the video teaches against any an all forms of calvinism.
He's got numerous teachings correcting and warning the calvinist cult concerning the error of their ways.
He's advocating for being led by the Holy Spirit abiding in Christ in contrast to the fake grace crowd that teaches we can live in sin and it's all good as they claim we can live in sin and still be saved in direct opposition to what God teaches in His Word.
They are sin friendly and they love it so!
They refuse to accept Jesus as their LORD meaning they reject the leading of the Holy Spirit because they have self on the throne of their heart rather than the Lord. They engage in idolatry by having self on the throne instead of the Lord Jesus.
I found this on the youtube guy's site:
License to Sin OSAS Mini Documentary
This contains clips of false grace teachers claiming people can live in sin and still be saved and it's all good and these clips are from some of the most well known fake grace heretics.
License to Sin OSAS Mini Documentary
This contains clips of false grace teachers claiming people can live in sin and still be saved and it's all good and these clips are from some of the most well known fake grace heretics.
Please see Post #27 because I've already made this clear. Honestly, are you ignoring what I'm saying on purpose? Because it's like you're arguing about stuff on stances I never made.
Right. You're hung up on "renewal". You cannot be "renewed again, after being renewed for the first time". My point still stands.
This immediately follows "..since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
Both things: crucifying for themselves and shaming the Son of God are impossible.
Instead of condemnation, you'll face correction, punishment, even excommunication... all at the hands of a loving Father. The intent is to create, within the son of God, godly sorrow for repentance.
You seem sincere. Help me understand why this still trips you up.
@Delvianna
For the record, I believe in several different salvations. We tend to emphasize the salvation to get to heaven. In my study, it is the salvation least referenced in the scriptures. Salvation from our enemy and the schemes of our enemy are addressed more and are vital to understanding maturing in Christ.
Faith alone = placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. This saves you from the second death.
Works through Faith = activity of righteousness defined by being led by the Spirit of God. This saves you from the corruption of the world.
Adam is responsible for the sin in the flesh. Therefore a new identity, not in Adam, is required to escape the second death. Here, faith is required. We cannot work to receive this salvation. It is by faith alone. Being placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit changes our identity.
Satan is responsible for the corruption of the world. He is the god of the air. The systems he created are designed to entrap men within them through messages of self-reliance and fear. Only people who are in Christ may accomplish works of faith that "deliver them from evil". By these works they are saved, not to go to heaven (that is already accomplished), but from the ways of the wicked one.
Paul referenced this second salvation with the Corinthians. Some of them were dying young or were sick because of their sins.
"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
The last sentence is key. Paul is NOT saying that it is possible to be condemned with the world. Paul is saying that if we are in sin, the Lord chastens us SO THAT we are not condemned with the world. Unless we think the Lord is unable to chasten fully so that we might be condemned.... No. He knows His own and He knows how to chasten us. Sometimes, even, He will cut our lives short to bring an end to the harm we commit against ourselves and others.
For the record, I believe in several different salvations. We tend to emphasize the salvation to get to heaven. In my study, it is the salvation least referenced in the scriptures. Salvation from our enemy and the schemes of our enemy are addressed more and are vital to understanding maturing in Christ.
Faith alone = placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. This saves you from the second death.
Works through Faith = activity of righteousness defined by being led by the Spirit of God. This saves you from the corruption of the world.
Adam is responsible for the sin in the flesh. Therefore a new identity, not in Adam, is required to escape the second death. Here, faith is required. We cannot work to receive this salvation. It is by faith alone. Being placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit changes our identity.
Satan is responsible for the corruption of the world. He is the god of the air. The systems he created are designed to entrap men within them through messages of self-reliance and fear. Only people who are in Christ may accomplish works of faith that "deliver them from evil". By these works they are saved, not to go to heaven (that is already accomplished), but from the ways of the wicked one.
Paul referenced this second salvation with the Corinthians. Some of them were dying young or were sick because of their sins.
"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
The last sentence is key. Paul is NOT saying that it is possible to be condemned with the world. Paul is saying that if we are in sin, the Lord chastens us SO THAT we are not condemned with the world. Unless we think the Lord is unable to chasten fully so that we might be condemned.... No. He knows His own and He knows how to chasten us. Sometimes, even, He will cut our lives short to bring an end to the harm we commit against ourselves and others.
Psalm 4:3
But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you
Only those that have separated themselves from this world to live in agreement with the Lord submitting themselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit will be accepted by the Lord and allowed to live with Him in His Kingdom.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The fake teachers have been deceived by the devil to reject the ordination by the Father that we walk in good works - this is the fruit Jesus is speaking of on John 15:1,2 which is only obtainable by the leading of the Holy Spirit for those that submit themselves unto the Lord.
The fake teachers have submitted themselves unto the devil which is why they teach thing contrary to the plain reading of scripture. Their understanding has been darkened which is why they are teaching what the devil says rather than what the Lord teaches in His Word.
John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you
Only those that have separated themselves from this world to live in agreement with the Lord submitting themselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit will be accepted by the Lord and allowed to live with Him in His Kingdom.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The fake teachers have been deceived by the devil to reject the ordination by the Father that we walk in good works - this is the fruit Jesus is speaking of on John 15:1,2 which is only obtainable by the leading of the Holy Spirit for those that submit themselves unto the Lord.
The fake teachers have submitted themselves unto the devil which is why they teach thing contrary to the plain reading of scripture. Their understanding has been darkened which is why they are teaching what the devil says rather than what the Lord teaches in His Word.
John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Before I respond to your last post, I want to name something you keep circling back to, "you can't be born again after being born again" as if it's a correction to my position. It isn't. I already said, verbatim, in an earlier post: "If you were saved and fell away, that's it. You cannot become 'saved' again." That's the same claim. You're not rebutting me, you're repeating me back to myself. I need you to actually register that agreement exists there before we go further, because otherwise we're just going to keep looping.
Now, to your points:
On "renewal"
I'm not hung up on the word. I think you're collapsing it into a word that it isn't. "Renewed again to repentance" uses anakainizo, which isn't the NT's vocabulary for new birth or regeneration (that's John 3:3, or Titus 3:5's "washing of regeneration"). Where "renewal" language shows up elsewhere, it describes ongoing transformation, not a one-time rebirth. Romans 12:2's "renewal of your mind," for example. So, "there's no need to renew that which has been renewed" assumes an equation the text doesn't make. Repentance isn't a one-time event either. Revelation 2:5 tells a church to "repent, or I will remove your lampstand." Hebrews 12:17 says Esau sought a place of repentance and couldn't find it, even with tears. That's the author describing repentance becoming unavailable to someone, and nobody reads that as "Esau needed to be born again again." Hebrews 6 is doing the same thing... not describing a second regeneration, but a closed door to repentance. That's the part I think you keep translating into "born again again", a claim I've never made and don't agree with.
On the different salvations framework
Same question I've been asking about Hebrews 12: where does Hebrews 6 or 10 itself draw this distinction? You're describing two tiers, faith alone securing heaven, works/Spirit-led living saving from "the corruption of the world" but look at what's actually listed in Hebrews 6:4-5: enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. By your own framework, "partaker of the Holy Spirit" is exactly the language of being placed into Christ by the Spirit, the thing you say secures someone from the second death and can't be lost. So even granting your own framework, Hebrews 6 is describing people falling away from the very category you say is unlosable.
And 1 Corinthians 11 doesn't transfer cleanly either. That passage is about physical sickness and premature death tied to abusing the Lord's Supper and not a general "second salvation" that gets forfeited and restored through discipline. Hebrews 10:26-31 reads nothing like that context: "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," "a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries," "a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." That's judgment language aimed at an enemy, not correction aimed at a son which is precisely the contrast Hebrews 12 draws when it says discipline "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness." Those aren't the same outcome described two ways. They're opposites. I mean, unless you discipline your children with fiery judgement...
This is why it's so important to stick within the book we're debating and not go outside of it, because it adds other issues and problems before we even agree on the context of Hebrews 6. It just makes it convoluted when you're implying an interpretation from another book and attributing it to this one. We have to have a foundation to build from, and not run all around the houses. So, can we stick with Hebrews 6 and you can try and show me how I'm wrong within the context of itself? Unless we can actually agree on something I've written here and build from there.
You’re making my point. Hmm. I’m not sure how I can summarize it more.
One correction: the Holy Spirit places us within the Body of Christ. That is the baptism into the Body by the Holy Spirit. This occurs upon renewal for everyone who believes. This is a baptism that infers a change of identity.
Then there is the baptism into the Spirit by the Lord. A different administration. This is a baptism that infers power. You may be given power by this baptism but this power may be taken away or truncated because of your actions.
I don't really want to go down another road that veers off from the OP, unless you want to elaborate and draw it back to the topic of this thread.
So to summarize my stance:
1) Once saved, Always saved is biblically incorrect as you can lose salvation by living in sin.
2) If you lose salvation from living in sin, you cannot be "saved" again. Hell is where you will be.
Weeell.. the main guy I was thinking I don't think is lordship salvation calvinist.. but I think there are plenty like that in the vid.
Occasional stumbles is not the same as living in sin. If so, then nobody in the world is saved, including Paul who wrote about these things.
Fortunately, it is the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for the remission of sins that makes salvation possible.
If someone commits one sin but then has remorse and confesses such sin, would such a person be classified as living in sin? I guess we all live in sin then, including yourself.
I have read that the New Testament contains warnings to both of us. Apparently, we are damned. Oh well, mind as well live the good life then while it is still called Today.
I have listened to Alan Parr (the one being accused) he seemed pretty grounded biblically.
Agree the channel owner is denouncing saved is saved so that would disqualify him as an LS teacher, the LS teachers are the fruit inspector types, who believe in OSAS but will quickly denounce someone as not being saved when they fall ..."oh they were never saved to begin with"
LS teachers also taught to look inside oneself to see growth and change and that is how a person would know they are saved, so of course that often leads to the problem of trying to finish in the flesh what was started by the spirit.
I was showing you a salvation you may lose because of sin.
For your idea to be accurate, God would have to disown His own children and destroy His own Body. I don’t think you know God as your Father.
That's based on a statement you believe, not what the scriptures teach. Because scripture teaches staying in Christ, you are saved... Does God destroy His own body when He says He will spit you out of it (Revelation 3:16)? I don't think you understand scripture very well.
Do you know what spit you out from a cultural pov meant to the believers?
Also, did the Jews know the scriptures or know Christ? And what was accounted to them for their belief? I know both the Bible and the One who wrote it. You make assumptions based upon presuppositions that are not compatible with God’s character.
Nicodemus thought that re-entering his mother's womb was an absurd idea. And we're debating about the need for being "born again again."