Life after death.
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Its good that we agree on one thing...
Since you agree/sure, how do you think God will deal with different degrees of punishment in the lake of fire?
watcher2013, I have never contradicted the meaning of eternal and without end, as they mean the same thing:
Eternal = without end
Your problem is that you are not understanding what the word death means, which does not mean ceasing to exist, but conscious existence in separation from God. Death is a state of conscious existence in separation from God in eternal punishment.
If I didn't believe that Jesus died for the sins of all who would believe in Him and that He resurrected, then I would have no business being on this site.
Satan, his angels, which are spirits and the unrighteous dead who will receive resurrected bodies, will all suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, whether angels as spirits or the wicked in their resurrected bodies.
I don't know why God needs to resurrect the wicked in resurrected bodies. I only know that this is what is written:
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15
Below is the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection."
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Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
That I don't know and that because it is not stated in scripture. But I am sure that God is able to make that happen.
Thats good enuf.
Just a note to ponder...
Scripturally we know all the wicked will be cast in the lake of fire.
1. If all wicked will suffer the same eternally...whats the difference then?
How is this judgement according to works?
2. If A stole 2 penny, and B murdered 6 million jews...is it righteous for them to suffer the same fire the same eternity?
Though we agree on the difference in degree of punisment. Your doctrine shows differently.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Christians never die, so even as this corrupted flesh falls away we live. We walk through the valley of the shadow of death, because death is a shadow of things that were and no longer applies. So let this meat puppet fall off and be buried or burned or eaten by animals, I still live praise God.
Obviously the first death is referring to the physical body, which includes the soul/spirit being separated from God.
The second death is the final judgment and separation from God in the Lake of fire.
Believers in Christ throughout the history have experienced the first death, however, as Jesus said, "though they die, yet shall they live."
Believers have been credited with righteous and reconciled to God through faith in Christ, so many have and will only experience the first death. Because Christ has resurrected, those who believe in Him will also be resurrect according to the promise. Those believers who will be living at the time of the resurrection will not even experience the first death, but will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up. In opposition, those who die in their sins will experience the first and second death.
I am not saying that everyone is suffering the same. As I said previously, I don't know how God is going to carry out the different degrees of punishment, because nothing is written about it. That information is just not listed in scripture, so I can't expound on it.
Where in scriptures shows that death is a separation fron God?
Christ suffer the first death, Does this mean he was separated from God?
Will you consider the parable in matthew 18 shows the righteous judgement of the king?
"He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
"unless their is a shedding of blood their is no forgiveness for sins."
Jesus shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Through faith in Him we are credited with righteousness and reconciled to God.
"The reward for sins is death"
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins by dying in our place. But since He himself had no sin, death could not hold Him and so He was resurrected, because death only has power over those with sin.
The unforgiving servant in Matthew 18 teaches that, the multitude of sins of a servant were forgiven and then reinstated because after God forgave him for all his debt (sin), he would not forgive for his fellow servant (believer) for his sin which he committed against him. Jesus then finishes with, "This is how your heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.
In addition, you have previously attempted to use this scripture to mean that he will be thrown into prison to repay all that he owes, which is false. Since we have already seen that unless their is a shedding of blood their is no forgiveness for sins, where is the sinner who rejects Christ in this life, how is he going to be covered by the blood of Him they rejected. Once a person dies in his/her sins and is condemned, there is no reversal or second chances. Once a person dies in their sins their record is sealed.
The punishment for sin against God, is eternal!
2Th 1:8-9 KJV 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Is that the one you are talking?
1. Its talking of vengeance.
2. Ita talking lof Christ coming.
2Th 1:10 KJV When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
From the same book.
2Th 2:8 KJV And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Wicked destroy at presence of the Lord.
Interpretation ahould match.
I agree Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sins....
But it does not answer the key question.
Jesus suffer death....
We know he was resurrected.
But the fact that Jesus suffer death...
In comparison to your doctrine. That death is a separation from God.
When Jesus died and before he was resurrected...based on your doctrine...was he separated from God?
Mat 18:35 KJV So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
What will the father do?
Likewise....what did the king do to the servants who did not forgive...
And don't brush by the other part of the verse. Here is the proper rendering:
"who will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"
It's talking about the wicked being separated from the presence of the Lord. Please stop trying to twist the meaning of this.
2Th 1:10 KJV When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
From the same book.
Once again, when you see the translated word, look at the Greek word from which it is translated. Once again, here is the definition of the word olethros from which destroy is translated. Pay attention to what I have highlighted in red which says, "olethros however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation).
Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
I agree Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sins....
But it does not answer the key question.
Jesus suffer death....
We know he was resurrected.
But the fact that Jesus suffer death...
In comparison to your doctrine. That death is a separation from God.
When Jesus died and before he was resurrected...based on your doctrine...was he separated from God?[/QUOTE]
When Jesus was on the cross, did He not say "Father, Father, why have you forsaken Me?"
You appear to be geared towards excepting the false teachings opposed to the truth.
I'm amazed that you are even asking that question.
The servant in the parable, which is representing the believer, was brought before the king who is representing God who forgave the servant all that he owed him, which in the parable represents our sin. After the servant/believer went out, he found another servant/believer and told him to pay what he owed him. The man begged him for mercy and that he would pay everything back to him, but he wouldn't forgive him and had him thrown into prison. When the king/God heard about it, he had the man that he forgave brought back in and reinstated his debt. Regarding this Jesus says, "this is how my heavenly Father will treat all of you (believers) if you don't forgive your brother from your heart.
When Jesus was on the cross, did He not say "Father, Father, why have you forsaken Me?"
You appear to be geared towards excepting the false teachings opposed to the truth.[/QUOTE]
Lets go with your original rendition.
The way you look at it...
There are two audiences..
1. Thoee who will recieve vengeance
2. Those who will see hos glory.
There's no other way to see it...like the separation of goat and sheep.
Mat 25:31-33 KJV 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Does it not sound the same....
DEPART FROM ME....
you original rendition
AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD.
You know yourself. You are trying to convince yourself you are right about death being a separation to God...but its not...you can fool yourselves like those who claim to be speaking in tongues but are not...they are just babbling...
But for the sake of reading...
Why you have forsaken me...this your defense that Christ was separated from God at death?????
Moreover, LIKEWISE.
if a believer did not forgive someone, he will be tormented likewise????
In response to your often quoting greek.
Problem with this. You can choose a definition that match a doctrine.
Rather than search the scripture for the possible meaning of the word.
Example.
Sit on the throne forever...
Is he seating on the throne forever and not standing up?