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Agree
Don't preach the error of pre-trib rapture = It never came out of the Mouth of God.
The tempter came to Him and said, “If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
The most secure way to avoid false doctrine and teaching false doctrine is to follow this Eternal Command from the LORD.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Don't preach the error of pre-trib rapture = It never came out of the Mouth of God.
The tempter came to Him and said, “If You are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
The most secure way to avoid false doctrine and teaching false doctrine is to follow this Eternal Command from the LORD.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
Did you REALLY read 1 Thessalonians chapter 4? Where are physical bodies mentioned? They are not. Paul was writing to those very Thessalonians of his day. He included himself in the WE. The teachings of 1 Thessalonians 4 are not directed at us. THEY were not to precede the rising of the "dead in Christ," but all would be caught together in Christ. This is the gathering together by the mighty angels of all of the elect from the four "winds" at Christ's appearing in THAT generation. "THIS generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place" (Mat. 24:34). First Thessalonians 4 reflects Paul's teachings in 1 Corinthians 15.
First Corinthians 15 also makes no mention of physical bodies. You are reading that into the text. Paul uses the expression ek nekron (from out of the DEAD ONES--15:12). It is a PLURAL participle, and it speaks of the company of those who died and went to SHEOL. THEY were the "dead ones." From that group imprisoned in Sheol/Hades (those who awaited the resurrection), Jesus was raised. He came back into His physical body as a SIGN that He had accomplished the resurrection from the DEAD ONES. He was resurrected (restored to full fellowship with God the Father having conquered sin) BEFORE he reclaimed His physical body.
Many, especially the Greeks, saw no escape from what they considered the netherworld. It is significant that Paul is writing to the Church at Corinth--a mostly Gentile audience. While they did not deny His physical coming forth from the tomb, some of THEM denied that He had escaped the clutches of the realm of the DEAD ONES (Sheol/Hades). Jesus died and went to HADES because that was the destination of ALL men. Paul's point is that if Christ Himself, the Son of Man and the Son of God, had not overcome the prison of Sheol/Hades, then who could? No one. If Christ hadn't achieved victory, no one could, and they would forever be lost in their sins! If you make this about physical bodies coming up out of their tombs, you miss the entire point of Paul's words.
Are the DEAD, those who "sleep in the dust of the earth," raised or are they not? In other words, can they be? If Christ did not win over death and the wages of sin, then no one can! "You are still in your sins" (vs. 17). "Those who have fallen asleep (and are in Sheol/Hades awaiting resurrection), in Christ HAVE PERISHED (vs. 18).
What was the truth Paul was imparting? Christ was in fact RESURRECTED out of SHEOL/HADES and out of the realm of the DEAD ONES. RESURRECTION is coming forth out of that realm! He was "the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep" (vs.20). The rest of the Harvest which would remove the "dead ones" out of the clutches of SHEOL/HADES would come at His return (vs. 23) in A.D. 70 when He opened the "bars" of that realm and set the prisoners free--some to everlasting life and others to eternal banishment from His presence. THAT was the resurrection, the Hope of Israel. It was limited to those who had died and gone to SHEOL/HADES. That realm has been emptied and destroyed. There is no more resurrection. It was NEVER the hope of the Church. It was the hope of OT Israel. It was for that hope that Paul was imprisoned!
The futurist assumption of physical bodies comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's answer to THEIR question: "How are the dead [nekroi--PLURAL) raised? With what kind of BODY [singular] do they come?" (vs. 35). The false perception is that since Jesus came back for a short time to dwell in His physical body, we will all do the same. Paul chastises them and then presents a metaphor of a sower--something they clearly understood. The sower plants a seed and it DIES (vs. 36). The SEED remains in the EARTH and returns to the dust. The SEED does NOT come forth. That which is not LIKE the SEED comes forth--something that is fitted for a different realm. God does not change the seed; He gives a completely different type of "body." Why? Because "there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies" (vs. 40). They each have their own "glory" and their own realm (vs. 40).
Paul elaborates: "What is sown is PERISHABLE, what is raised is IMPERISHABLE" (vs. 42). One is not turned into the the other. They are separate. They do not mix; they do not exchange, they are not transformed. They are what they are and they remain what they are. Sown in "dishonor"; raised in "glory." Sown in "weakness"; raised in "power." Sown a "natural" BODY; raised a "spiritual" (BODY). The physical body of flesh is not emphasized here since it pertains to both the "natural" and the "spiritual." Both have a "body." The "natural" came first. This is associated with Adam. Again, it is not physical. It speaks of the essence of "a man of dust" (earthly--vs. 47). All mankind is "of dust." This is compared to the man "from heaven." They are distinct. All are first "of dust," before they are raised through faith in Christ as "those who are of heaven" (vs. 48). All bear the "image of the man of dust" until through faith in Christ, they "bear the image of the man of heaven" (vs. 49).
The PERISHABLE (man of dust, the man of the earthly realm) does not inherit the IMPERISHABLE (vs. 50). Imperishability cannot be bequeathed because it is NOT of the family lineage! One does NOT become the other. They each remain in their own realm.
Paul goes on to explain that THEY would not all SLEEP--(sleep with their fathers in SHEOL/HADES). Some would live until His coming; until He emptied Hades so no one ever "SLEPT" there again. Many died before His return and did join those in that realm, but others lived to never see that realm. Study Jesus' words in Matthew 16:28--"There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Some would never be relegated to the realm of HADES. Some would never sleep. They would live until Christ came and forever destroyed it. At that time, ALL would be changed. Hades was emptied; those in Christ were changed to be heavenly and those who still lived at His appearing were changed to be heavenly. Since that time, no one goes to wait in Hades. ALL in Christ die, never sleeping "in the dust of the earth" and immediately go into His presence. In other words, Christians do not SLEEP because they ARE resurrected!
It is unfortunate that translations render verse 53 with the word "body." The word is not there in the Greek. It simple says: "For this PERISHABLE must put on the IMPERISHABLE, and this MORTALITY must put on IMMORTALITY. The fear of DEATH is eradicated; there is no more STING; there is VICTORY. This victory has been achieved--a long time ago--when Christ came and did away with the law that brought condemnation and guilt. When the Roman armies destroyed the city and the Temple, the tenets of Judaism and its guilt without hope were burned with FERVENT heat (2 Peter 3) and "heaven and earth" (the Old Covenant--the "elements") passed away! We now live in the "new heavens and earth" of the New Covenant.
If there has been no resurrection, all Christians still go to Hades to join the Dead One and await its reality. Hope delayed makes the heart sick" (Proverbs 13:12).
First Corinthians 15 also makes no mention of physical bodies. You are reading that into the text. Paul uses the expression ek nekron (from out of the DEAD ONES--15:12). It is a PLURAL participle, and it speaks of the company of those who died and went to SHEOL. THEY were the "dead ones." From that group imprisoned in Sheol/Hades (those who awaited the resurrection), Jesus was raised. He came back into His physical body as a SIGN that He had accomplished the resurrection from the DEAD ONES. He was resurrected (restored to full fellowship with God the Father having conquered sin) BEFORE he reclaimed His physical body.
Many, especially the Greeks, saw no escape from what they considered the netherworld. It is significant that Paul is writing to the Church at Corinth--a mostly Gentile audience. While they did not deny His physical coming forth from the tomb, some of THEM denied that He had escaped the clutches of the realm of the DEAD ONES (Sheol/Hades). Jesus died and went to HADES because that was the destination of ALL men. Paul's point is that if Christ Himself, the Son of Man and the Son of God, had not overcome the prison of Sheol/Hades, then who could? No one. If Christ hadn't achieved victory, no one could, and they would forever be lost in their sins! If you make this about physical bodies coming up out of their tombs, you miss the entire point of Paul's words.
Are the DEAD, those who "sleep in the dust of the earth," raised or are they not? In other words, can they be? If Christ did not win over death and the wages of sin, then no one can! "You are still in your sins" (vs. 17). "Those who have fallen asleep (and are in Sheol/Hades awaiting resurrection), in Christ HAVE PERISHED (vs. 18).
What was the truth Paul was imparting? Christ was in fact RESURRECTED out of SHEOL/HADES and out of the realm of the DEAD ONES. RESURRECTION is coming forth out of that realm! He was "the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep" (vs.20). The rest of the Harvest which would remove the "dead ones" out of the clutches of SHEOL/HADES would come at His return (vs. 23) in A.D. 70 when He opened the "bars" of that realm and set the prisoners free--some to everlasting life and others to eternal banishment from His presence. THAT was the resurrection, the Hope of Israel. It was limited to those who had died and gone to SHEOL/HADES. That realm has been emptied and destroyed. There is no more resurrection. It was NEVER the hope of the Church. It was the hope of OT Israel. It was for that hope that Paul was imprisoned!
The futurist assumption of physical bodies comes from a misunderstanding of Paul's answer to THEIR question: "How are the dead [nekroi--PLURAL) raised? With what kind of BODY [singular] do they come?" (vs. 35). The false perception is that since Jesus came back for a short time to dwell in His physical body, we will all do the same. Paul chastises them and then presents a metaphor of a sower--something they clearly understood. The sower plants a seed and it DIES (vs. 36). The SEED remains in the EARTH and returns to the dust. The SEED does NOT come forth. That which is not LIKE the SEED comes forth--something that is fitted for a different realm. God does not change the seed; He gives a completely different type of "body." Why? Because "there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies" (vs. 40). They each have their own "glory" and their own realm (vs. 40).
Paul elaborates: "What is sown is PERISHABLE, what is raised is IMPERISHABLE" (vs. 42). One is not turned into the the other. They are separate. They do not mix; they do not exchange, they are not transformed. They are what they are and they remain what they are. Sown in "dishonor"; raised in "glory." Sown in "weakness"; raised in "power." Sown a "natural" BODY; raised a "spiritual" (BODY). The physical body of flesh is not emphasized here since it pertains to both the "natural" and the "spiritual." Both have a "body." The "natural" came first. This is associated with Adam. Again, it is not physical. It speaks of the essence of "a man of dust" (earthly--vs. 47). All mankind is "of dust." This is compared to the man "from heaven." They are distinct. All are first "of dust," before they are raised through faith in Christ as "those who are of heaven" (vs. 48). All bear the "image of the man of dust" until through faith in Christ, they "bear the image of the man of heaven" (vs. 49).
The PERISHABLE (man of dust, the man of the earthly realm) does not inherit the IMPERISHABLE (vs. 50). Imperishability cannot be bequeathed because it is NOT of the family lineage! One does NOT become the other. They each remain in their own realm.
Paul goes on to explain that THEY would not all SLEEP--(sleep with their fathers in SHEOL/HADES). Some would live until His coming; until He emptied Hades so no one ever "SLEPT" there again. Many died before His return and did join those in that realm, but others lived to never see that realm. Study Jesus' words in Matthew 16:28--"There are some standing HERE who will not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Some would never be relegated to the realm of HADES. Some would never sleep. They would live until Christ came and forever destroyed it. At that time, ALL would be changed. Hades was emptied; those in Christ were changed to be heavenly and those who still lived at His appearing were changed to be heavenly. Since that time, no one goes to wait in Hades. ALL in Christ die, never sleeping "in the dust of the earth" and immediately go into His presence. In other words, Christians do not SLEEP because they ARE resurrected!
It is unfortunate that translations render verse 53 with the word "body." The word is not there in the Greek. It simple says: "For this PERISHABLE must put on the IMPERISHABLE, and this MORTALITY must put on IMMORTALITY. The fear of DEATH is eradicated; there is no more STING; there is VICTORY. This victory has been achieved--a long time ago--when Christ came and did away with the law that brought condemnation and guilt. When the Roman armies destroyed the city and the Temple, the tenets of Judaism and its guilt without hope were burned with FERVENT heat (2 Peter 3) and "heaven and earth" (the Old Covenant--the "elements") passed away! We now live in the "new heavens and earth" of the New Covenant.
If there has been no resurrection, all Christians still go to Hades to join the Dead One and await its reality. Hope delayed makes the heart sick" (Proverbs 13:12).
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.= dead bodies in the dust/grave
17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead. - Isa ch26
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
and the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints who had died were raised;
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matt ch27
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it,
and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.
And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev ch20
WAKE UP to TRUTH
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.= dead bodies in the dust/grave
17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead. - Isa ch26
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
and the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints who had died were raised;
and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matt ch27
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it,
and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.
And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev ch20
WAKE UP to TRUTH
[whereas Isaiah 26:14-19,20-21 is speaking of Israel's "future," just like Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 and Hos5:14-6:3 and Rom11:15[25,27(Isa27:9[,12-13]; and the Dan9:24 prophecy re: "thy [Daniel's] people" and "thy [Daniel's] holy city)] and several other passages on that same Subject: i.e. Israel coming up out of the graveyard OF NATIONS, WHERE SCATTERED...]
...this Matthew 27 passage is also what came to my mind when I read @LetGodBeTrue 's Post #86 ^^ (esp. regarding the word/subject: "resurrection / resurrected / resurrect" or even regarding "His resurrection").
Matthew 27 -
50 And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn into two from top to bottom. And the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split. 52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose. 53 And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
...this Matthew 27 passage is also what came to my mind when I read @LetGodBeTrue 's Post #86 ^^ (esp. regarding the word/subject: "resurrection / resurrected / resurrect" or even regarding "His resurrection").
Matthew 27 -
50 And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn into two from top to bottom. And the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split. 52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose. 53 And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
In addition to that point ^ , ( @LetGodBeTrue )
consider also a post I made some time back, regarding 1 Peter 3:19-20's "spirits in prison"...
Post #1274 (quoting Gaebelein's commentary, with which I agree) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4491982
[quoting from that old post]
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3 - re: "preached to the spirits in prison"]
"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.
"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."
--Gaebelein - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[MORE AT LINK... particularly the two paragraphs which precede this paragraph, at link... but even this much ^ suffices to the present point]
consider also a post I made some time back, regarding 1 Peter 3:19-20's "spirits in prison"...
Post #1274 (quoting Gaebelein's commentary, with which I agree) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4491982
[quoting from that old post]
[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3 - re: "preached to the spirits in prison"]
"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.
"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."
--Gaebelein - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
[MORE AT LINK... particularly the two paragraphs which precede this paragraph, at link... but even this much ^ suffices to the present point]
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Something to ponder on 1 Peter 3:18-22 = Clue: by omission
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
I AM awake to truth. Are you really? Did I not explain the AUDIENCE RELEVANCE of 1 Thessalonians 4, David? WE are NOT the WE there. Paul was addressing those very Thessalonians of HIS day. WE who ARE alive equals Paul and his contemporaries. THAT is the CONTEXT. You will never discover truth until you acknowledge to whom and when something was written in Scripture. Paul didn't want THEM to be ignorant of what was to come in THEIR lifetime. I was clear when I pointed out that the DEAD are those in Hades who awaited the resurrection. Christ overcame Hades and THEN He returned to His physical body to complete His mission on earth before ascending. Again, "those who sleep in the dust" is not a reference to PHYSICAL bodies. It is about a location--HADES. No one any longer "sleeps in the dust of the earth" because that realm was destroyed by Christ as His coming in A.D. 70.
Matthew 27 about physical bodies being RESUSCITATED in the same way Lazarus was. Those people were NOT resurrected. THEY died again and "slept in the dust of the earth" with their fathers.
The CONTEXT of Isaiah 26:19 is found within the time frame of Isaiah 24-27. The subject is exile-restoration. It is not about individual people dying and their physical bodies coming up out their graves. Those words are symbolic. God was to restore OT Israel from exile and remove their separation from Him. "The dust of the earth" describes that separation from God's presence and blessings. It also looks forward to the time when God would "swallow up death forever" and God would "wipe away tears from all faces" (25:8). This is found in Revelation, in the vision which John was shown which was to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1; 22:6)--in HIS day. It also ties very well with Paul's words to those of HIS day in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 ("the nekroi in Christ will rise first"). "Then WE [Paul and those of HIS day] will be caught together with them." Again, this is NOT about US. It was to happen to THEM. WE are NOT the WE. The context does not allow it.
Revelation 20 follows Revelation 1 and precedes Revelation 22--both of which give the timing for the entire vision. Again, John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
The OT especially must be understood within its historical setting and close attention must be given to its deeply prophetic and Hebrew metaphors and symbols (e.g., "heaven," "earth," "dead," "dust of the earth," etc.). When we cursorily take a verse out of its context, we rip it from that perspective and force our own understanding onto it.
Matthew 27 about physical bodies being RESUSCITATED in the same way Lazarus was. Those people were NOT resurrected. THEY died again and "slept in the dust of the earth" with their fathers.
The CONTEXT of Isaiah 26:19 is found within the time frame of Isaiah 24-27. The subject is exile-restoration. It is not about individual people dying and their physical bodies coming up out their graves. Those words are symbolic. God was to restore OT Israel from exile and remove their separation from Him. "The dust of the earth" describes that separation from God's presence and blessings. It also looks forward to the time when God would "swallow up death forever" and God would "wipe away tears from all faces" (25:8). This is found in Revelation, in the vision which John was shown which was to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1; 22:6)--in HIS day. It also ties very well with Paul's words to those of HIS day in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 ("the nekroi in Christ will rise first"). "Then WE [Paul and those of HIS day] will be caught together with them." Again, this is NOT about US. It was to happen to THEM. WE are NOT the WE. The context does not allow it.
Revelation 20 follows Revelation 1 and precedes Revelation 22--both of which give the timing for the entire vision. Again, John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).
The OT especially must be understood within its historical setting and close attention must be given to its deeply prophetic and Hebrew metaphors and symbols (e.g., "heaven," "earth," "dead," "dust of the earth," etc.). When we cursorily take a verse out of its context, we rip it from that perspective and force our own understanding onto it.
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^ Problem alert.
@LetGodBeTrue says (again),
Revelation 1:1; 22:6 says this instead,
"things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [en tachei / taxei G1722 G5034 - NOUN]..."
Which I had explained here (and not the first time in that thread):
-- Post #359 (and #360) of a different thread - https://christianchat.com/threads/are-we-in-the-end-times.202587/post-4803528
... to which LetGodBeTrue eventually acknowledged, in his Post #368 of that thread, by saying, "I stand corrected..."
...but now (while going back to his original stating that it says "SHORTLY," which is doesn't state), he's saying,
Let the readers note that I've already address with this poster, the following, which he has basically IGNORED and not addressed in my numerous posts regarding these:
--the SEALS in Rev6 are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" which Luke 21:12 tells us that the 70ad events of vv.12-24 must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE all these beginning of birth PANGS); This means that "the SEALS / the beginning of birth PANGS" take place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events; they are NOT what precede and LEAD UP TO the 70ad events;
Same for Paul's telling of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period (in 1Th5:1-3), which he states will be "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which COMES UPON a woman (same one Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"), aka SEAL #1 (the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW... where "bow" is often used, in scripture, to mean "DECEPTION");... which leads to my next point...
--there's been no explanation provided by LetGodBeTrue as to WHY Rev17:8 says, "... [when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [future tense].";... if Revelation was supposedly written BEFORE the events of 70ad (like, say, in the mid-60s-ad, as is supposed by the Preterists), then WHY does this text state (of the beast) "and IS NOT" (at the time of that supposed "mid-60s-ad" writing)??
@LetGodBeTrue says (again),
Revelation 1:1; 22:6 says this instead,
"things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [en tachei / taxei G1722 G5034 - NOUN]..."
Which I had explained here (and not the first time in that thread):
-- Post #359 (and #360) of a different thread - https://christianchat.com/threads/are-we-in-the-end-times.202587/post-4803528
... to which LetGodBeTrue eventually acknowledged, in his Post #368 of that thread, by saying, "I stand corrected..."
...but now (while going back to his original stating that it says "SHORTLY," which is doesn't state), he's saying,
Let the readers note that I've already address with this poster, the following, which he has basically IGNORED and not addressed in my numerous posts regarding these:
--the SEALS in Rev6 are EQUIVALENT to "the beginning of birth PANGS" which Luke 21:12 tells us that the 70ad events of vv.12-24 must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE" (BEFORE all these beginning of birth PANGS); This means that "the SEALS / the beginning of birth PANGS" take place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the 70ad events; they are NOT what precede and LEAD UP TO the 70ad events;
Same for Paul's telling of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time-period (in 1Th5:1-3), which he states will be "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" which COMES UPON a woman (same one Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]"), aka SEAL #1 (the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW... where "bow" is often used, in scripture, to mean "DECEPTION");... which leads to my next point...
--there's been no explanation provided by LetGodBeTrue as to WHY Rev17:8 says, "... [when they behold the beast] that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [future tense].";... if Revelation was supposedly written BEFORE the events of 70ad (like, say, in the mid-60s-ad, as is supposed by the Preterists), then WHY does this text state (of the beast) "and IS NOT" (at the time of that supposed "mid-60s-ad" writing)??
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Here's my explanation. THE CONTEXT. You can pontificate all you want through your twisting of the simple word SHORTLY, but when taken along with NEAR (eggus), all of your groundless efforts vanish. How many times have "I" pointed that out? I did NOT ignore it.
And what about Revelation 17:8? I provided NO explanation? THAT is also NOT true. Stop mischaracterizing me. My explanation falls within the CLEAR time frame of the vision--the things which were in JOHN'S own day to SHORTLY take place. You want that to mean awkwardly "in quickness" because you found a preposition there and a noun? So what? The FORCE is still SOON as supported by what followed SHORTLY--the time is NEAR. What clever way can you come up with to water that down? I made great effort to point out to you how those same words (preposition + the noun) are translated elsewhere in English in simple adverbial form (SHORTLY). Your pushing of QUICKNESS divorced from SOONNESS is ridiculous and only reveals your agenda to uphold your eschatological positions in spite of the numerous proof that disputes them. The point of en tachei is NOT the quickness of movement but the TIMING. It fits James' words in 5:8--"The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND." But you will twist that to mean imminent when in many, many places in the NT it clearly means SOON and ABOUT TO happen.
Revelation 17:8 in its CONTEXT and in the limitations of the TIMING of the entire book (SHORTLY take place; time is NEAR) simply states that the things that "SHALL BE" are in the future of those of JOHN'S generation--the THIS generation that Jesus confined would see those things (Mat. 24; Mark 13, Luke 21). They are not future to US or to any other generation! They were future to THEM.
Timing of Matthew 24? Was not Jesus clear? Do you deny the plain teaching of your Lord and Savior? He said to THOSE disciples standing right there with Him: "THIS [YOUR] generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." How much clearer could He have been? As I have pointed out to YOU numerous times, Jesus always used the expression "THIS generation" (20x) to mean the lifetime of His contemporaries. The birth pangs of the Olivet Discourse that were to happen in THAT very generation are the same birth pangs of Revelation--part of the events of the vision that was THEN to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. I am sorry that the clear timing of these things does not fit your paradigm and your preconceived ideas, but it is what it is. You choose to cling to your preconceptions in spite of the FACT that they do NOT fit the timing. You will never understand the Words of Scripture until you let it say what it says. Furthermore, you do not pay proper attention to AUDIENCE RELEVANCE. Jesus uses the second person plural pronoun YOU twenty times in Matthew 24. WE are NOT the YE. Those things were to happen to THEM in THEIR lifetime. Why do you refuse to see that?
THIS generation will by NO MEANS pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place. That included the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, the coming of false Christs, the metaphorical darkening of the son and moon, the falling of the stars of heaven, the shaking of the powers of the heavens [The JUDGMENT), and the COMING of the Son of Man on the "CLOUDS" of heaven (The PAROUSIA), and the gathering of the elect from the four corners (The RESURRECTION). These were the same CLOUDS (of power, glory, and deity) Jesus told CAIPAHAS and the Sanhedrin that THEY would see (Mat. 26:64). They are the same CLOUDS (of power, glory, and deity) in which Jesus left this earth (Acts 1). He left in those "CLOUDS" and He returned in those "CLOUDS." THAT was the "like manner."
NOTE: Please do not take MY WORDS out of context. When I wrote "I stand corrected," I was in NO WAY conceding the clear TIMING of the vision. It is awkward to translate en tachei as "in quickness." Who says that? NO ONE. That is why many translations render it SHORTLY because that is its FORCE--especially when taken with eggus (NEAR)--a word you like to ignore.
Did I not give numerous verses from the GREEK in which SHORTLY is used? Did I not? Again, I was in no way agreeing with you that en tachei has no NEARNESS nuance. That is NOT what I conceded. I agreed with you that the verse has IN THE GREEK a preposition and a noun. From that YOU think you have found a weak brick in the preterist foundation and you suppose that you can eradicate the adverbial FORCE. Your insistence on "in quickness" makes no sense when taken with NEAR and when seen along side other NT uses which render it as SHORTLY.
How sad it is that someone's paradigm is so DEAR to him that he looks to the Scriptures not for truth but for whatever he can unbury that he can use to uphold his paradigm. .
You will have to give an account for the disgraceful way you treat the Words of Scripture. You are not just twisting and manipulating words to your own end, you are twisting and manipulating CHRIST'S words.
Jesus told His disciples standing right there with them that some of THEM (standing HERE) would see Him COMING in His kingdom (Mat.16:28). He told them that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He CAME (Mat. 10:23).
And you have never given a plausible exegesis of the Hebrew writer's words: "In a VERY, VERY little while, He who is COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (10:37). Futurists run from this verse as they would from the plague. The writer of Hebrews wrote these words right after he told those of HIS day that THEY should not neglect gathering together (10:25). Why? THEY would see "the day coming." THEY would see it.
And what about Revelation 17:8? I provided NO explanation? THAT is also NOT true. Stop mischaracterizing me. My explanation falls within the CLEAR time frame of the vision--the things which were in JOHN'S own day to SHORTLY take place. You want that to mean awkwardly "in quickness" because you found a preposition there and a noun? So what? The FORCE is still SOON as supported by what followed SHORTLY--the time is NEAR. What clever way can you come up with to water that down? I made great effort to point out to you how those same words (preposition + the noun) are translated elsewhere in English in simple adverbial form (SHORTLY). Your pushing of QUICKNESS divorced from SOONNESS is ridiculous and only reveals your agenda to uphold your eschatological positions in spite of the numerous proof that disputes them. The point of en tachei is NOT the quickness of movement but the TIMING. It fits James' words in 5:8--"The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND." But you will twist that to mean imminent when in many, many places in the NT it clearly means SOON and ABOUT TO happen.
Revelation 17:8 in its CONTEXT and in the limitations of the TIMING of the entire book (SHORTLY take place; time is NEAR) simply states that the things that "SHALL BE" are in the future of those of JOHN'S generation--the THIS generation that Jesus confined would see those things (Mat. 24; Mark 13, Luke 21). They are not future to US or to any other generation! They were future to THEM.
Timing of Matthew 24? Was not Jesus clear? Do you deny the plain teaching of your Lord and Savior? He said to THOSE disciples standing right there with Him: "THIS [YOUR] generation will by no means pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place." How much clearer could He have been? As I have pointed out to YOU numerous times, Jesus always used the expression "THIS generation" (20x) to mean the lifetime of His contemporaries. The birth pangs of the Olivet Discourse that were to happen in THAT very generation are the same birth pangs of Revelation--part of the events of the vision that was THEN to SHORTLY take place; the time was NEAR. I am sorry that the clear timing of these things does not fit your paradigm and your preconceived ideas, but it is what it is. You choose to cling to your preconceptions in spite of the FACT that they do NOT fit the timing. You will never understand the Words of Scripture until you let it say what it says. Furthermore, you do not pay proper attention to AUDIENCE RELEVANCE. Jesus uses the second person plural pronoun YOU twenty times in Matthew 24. WE are NOT the YE. Those things were to happen to THEM in THEIR lifetime. Why do you refuse to see that?
THIS generation will by NO MEANS pass away until ALL THESE THINGS take place. That included the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, the coming of false Christs, the metaphorical darkening of the son and moon, the falling of the stars of heaven, the shaking of the powers of the heavens [The JUDGMENT), and the COMING of the Son of Man on the "CLOUDS" of heaven (The PAROUSIA), and the gathering of the elect from the four corners (The RESURRECTION). These were the same CLOUDS (of power, glory, and deity) Jesus told CAIPAHAS and the Sanhedrin that THEY would see (Mat. 26:64). They are the same CLOUDS (of power, glory, and deity) in which Jesus left this earth (Acts 1). He left in those "CLOUDS" and He returned in those "CLOUDS." THAT was the "like manner."
NOTE: Please do not take MY WORDS out of context. When I wrote "I stand corrected," I was in NO WAY conceding the clear TIMING of the vision. It is awkward to translate en tachei as "in quickness." Who says that? NO ONE. That is why many translations render it SHORTLY because that is its FORCE--especially when taken with eggus (NEAR)--a word you like to ignore.
Did I not give numerous verses from the GREEK in which SHORTLY is used? Did I not? Again, I was in no way agreeing with you that en tachei has no NEARNESS nuance. That is NOT what I conceded. I agreed with you that the verse has IN THE GREEK a preposition and a noun. From that YOU think you have found a weak brick in the preterist foundation and you suppose that you can eradicate the adverbial FORCE. Your insistence on "in quickness" makes no sense when taken with NEAR and when seen along side other NT uses which render it as SHORTLY.
How sad it is that someone's paradigm is so DEAR to him that he looks to the Scriptures not for truth but for whatever he can unbury that he can use to uphold his paradigm. .
You will have to give an account for the disgraceful way you treat the Words of Scripture. You are not just twisting and manipulating words to your own end, you are twisting and manipulating CHRIST'S words.
Jesus told His disciples standing right there with them that some of THEM (standing HERE) would see Him COMING in His kingdom (Mat.16:28). He told them that THEY would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He CAME (Mat. 10:23).
And you have never given a plausible exegesis of the Hebrew writer's words: "In a VERY, VERY little while, He who is COMING will COME and will NOT DELAY" (10:37). Futurists run from this verse as they would from the plague. The writer of Hebrews wrote these words right after he told those of HIS day that THEY should not neglect gathering together (10:25). Why? THEY would see "the day coming." THEY would see it.
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J
By Hal LindseyOn March 29th and 30th of 2022, global elites gathered for the World Government Summit in Dubai. They talked about working with individual governments in a variety of areas. But make no mistake. Their goal is in their name. They want world government.
The Bible speaks of Antichrist and the False Prophet taking control of the planet by seizing the financial system. This year’s World Government Summit expressed the same idea.
American economist Dr. Pippa Malmgren said, “What underpins a world order is always the financial system…. And what we’re seeing in the world today, I think, is we are on the brink of a dramatic change where we are about to—and I’ll say this boldly—we’re about to abandon the traditional system of money and accounting, and introduce a new one. And the new one, the new accounting is what we call blockchain. It means digital, it means having an almost perfect record of every single transaction that happens in the economy.”
The context proves that she’s talking about a “world order.” Therefore, she must be referring to every single transaction in the world economy. “What underpins a world order,” she said, “is always the financial system.” She says “boldly” that, “We’re about to abandon the traditional system of money and accounting, and introduce a new one.”
If you want to remake a civilization, remake its financial system. And that’s what they’re trying to do—not for a single civilization, but for the whole world. It will ultimately lead to the “mark of the beast,” and the totalitarian world system necessary to enforce it.
She says that the new money will be based on the blockchain technology that now underpins digital currencies such as Bitcoin. She then makes an important distinction between present digital currencies and future ones. “This new money,” she says, “will be sovereign in nature. Most people think that digital money is crypto, and private. But I see our superpowers introducing digital currency. The Chinese were the first, the US is on the brink, I think, of moving in the same direction. The Europeans have committed to that as well.”
According to the Atlantic Council, at least 91 countries are already developing digital currencies. At first, this new kind of money will augment cash. But globalists admit that their real goal is to supplant cash entirely. Digital currencies will not stop terrorists, tax cheats, or other criminals until such currencies completely replace cash and fully interconnect. Unlike Bitcoin, government versions of digital currencies will not be private, and their users will not be anonymous.
Like all digital data, the new currencies will be made of zeroes and ones, and interpreted by machines. For that reason, “digital euros,” “digital dollars,” and the others can easily be made to work together as a single currency. With that, world elites will have achieved the goal Dr. Malmgren states so well. They will have “an almost perfect record of every single transaction that happens in the economy.”
And when they implement their system globally, they will have a “record of every single transaction that happens in the economy” of the entire planet.
We find this high-tech scenario in a document written over 1,900 years ago. Revelation 13:17 (NKJV) describes it like this: “No one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” A person will not be allowed to buy or sell unless he can access the global grid of digital money. And when the Antichrist reigns, only those who carry his mark will have that access.
Re: 1Pet 3:19-20
Firstly, the term "preached" is better translated "proclaimed".
2784 kērýssō – properly, to herald (proclaim); to preach (announce) a message publicly and with conviction (persuasion).
Secondly, the term "spirits" is commonly used for unclean spirits.
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
I still lean toward the view that the resurrected Jesus proclaimed victory to the same imprisoned spirits noted in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6.
Furthermore, the Jude 1:6 passage use of the term "oikētērion " is used in only ONE other place....2Cor 5:2. The angels that sinned decided to rebel against God's order, and go to a different dwelling place DOWNWARD (slumming it so to speak), while we Christians move in the opposite direction, we are provided a new glorified dwelling place UPWARD (we get an upgrade so to speak).
οἰκητήριον (oikētērion) — 2 Occurrences
2 Corinthians 5:2 N-ANS
GRK: στενάζομεν τὸ οἰκητήριον ἡμῶν τὸ
NAS: to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
KJV: with our house which
INT: we groan the dwelling of us which [is]
Jude 1:6 N-ANS
GRK: τὸ ἴδιον οἰκητήριον εἰς κρίσιν
NAS: their proper abode, He has kept
KJV: their own habitation, he hath reserved
INT: the own dwelling into [the] judgment
Firstly, the term "preached" is better translated "proclaimed".
2784 kērýssō – properly, to herald (proclaim); to preach (announce) a message publicly and with conviction (persuasion).
Secondly, the term "spirits" is commonly used for unclean spirits.
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
I still lean toward the view that the resurrected Jesus proclaimed victory to the same imprisoned spirits noted in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 1:6.
Furthermore, the Jude 1:6 passage use of the term "oikētērion " is used in only ONE other place....2Cor 5:2. The angels that sinned decided to rebel against God's order, and go to a different dwelling place DOWNWARD (slumming it so to speak), while we Christians move in the opposite direction, we are provided a new glorified dwelling place UPWARD (we get an upgrade so to speak).
οἰκητήριον (oikētērion) — 2 Occurrences
2 Corinthians 5:2 N-ANS
GRK: στενάζομεν τὸ οἰκητήριον ἡμῶν τὸ
NAS: to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
KJV: with our house which
INT: we groan the dwelling of us which [is]
Jude 1:6 N-ANS
GRK: τὸ ἴδιον οἰκητήριον εἰς κρίσιν
NAS: their proper abode, He has kept
KJV: their own habitation, he hath reserved
INT: the own dwelling into [the] judgment
