Loss of salvation???

[Cameron143]

Then you would surely be an inspiration to those who ended up eating their children during such times of testing or who got used as firewood and lanterns and such things in history. It's nice to know you and I'd pray for all to be just like you.

That time is past and those eating children weren't believers.

 

[studier]

That time is past and those eating children weren't believers.

Yes, and the future is yet to come.

 

[studier]

That time is past and those eating children weren't believers.

BTW, those were the times Jesus spoke about coming and through which His statement had to do with.

 

[Musicmaster]

Again, I'm not jumping into the normal fray of unsubstantiated conclusions either way. Scripture says what it says and I'm willing to sit here until my last breath (dramatic, huh) and go through it word by word and verse by verse apart from anyone's traditions. It's what I do anyway with or without the forum.

Adding anything to Faith is language I've addressed before but it's the basis of the counter argument to Faith Alone - Faith is Never Alone - because many have concluded that Faith Alone became an extreme that ended up lessening Faith into something Faith is not.

FWIW, I don't see 1Cor15 as the Gospel as you do here. I see Paul reminding the Corinthians of a summary of what he taught them, part of which can be seen in his evangelism in Acts13. It's very obvious IMO that in 1Cor15 he's providing his shorthand summary to quickly get to the topical importance of resurrection which is what he really gets into in order to straighten out people's thinking on how important it is to our Faith.

Then when we track Paul's Gospel as he elaborates on it in his writings, he's adding to it himself, let alone what he added to it in Acts13 and to what he said was its only foundation in 1Cor3.

This doesn't really address the works-based charge, but there are plenty of reasons not to accept such charges as they are typically thrown around by some (not necessarily you).

Ok. Well, you didn't elaborate on any one point enough for me to get a hand-hold into, so it is what it is for now until you're ready to discuss more deeply, which leaves it in "whatever" land of non-resolution. Been there many a time with folks. Not a problem. We all learn as we go along.

Have a good one.

MM

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, and the future is yet to come.

Haven't you read the scriptures...fear not? Perfect love casts out all fear. Fear not those who can destroy the body...
For someone who exhorts obedience, you seem to have little confidence in your ability in Christ to do so.

 

[Cameron143]

BTW, those were the times Jesus spoke about coming and through which His statement had to do with.

Sure. But they are past. Not something we have to consider.

 

[studier]

Haven't you read the scriptures...fear not? Perfect love casts out all fear. Fear not those who can destroy the body...
For someone who exhorts obedience, you seem to have little confidence in your ability in Christ to do so.

Just reality. I know the commands and the exhortations and the instructions. I also know that given His desires for us He can test us to limits we may not be able to fathom and use us as fodder to fill His cup of wrath against others. I also know He provides the way through the testing. I do admittedly have a problem with finding joy in some of the tests I've been through and I'm not asking Him to test me to my limits. What He does He does and what He doesn't He doesn't (profound, huh?)

I also find it interesting when people are speaking like you are given the fact that when we read about Jesus' time in the Garden sweating like drops of blood in intense prayer and coming out to His companions for strength on 3 occasions and asking our Father if there was another way, yet the ever-confident Christian thinks he can't be tested to his limits and will not be howling like a baby for God to stop.

 

[Cameron143]

Just reality. I know the commands and the exhortations and the instructions. I also know that given His desires for us He can test us to limits we may not be able to fathom and use us as fodder to fill His cup of wrath against others. I also know He provides the way through the testing. I do admittedly have a problem with finding joy in some of the tests I've been through and I'm not asking Him to test me to my limits. What He does He does and what He doesn't He doesn't (profound, huh?)

I also find it interesting when people are speaking like you are given the fact that when we read about Jesus' time in the Garden sweating like drops of blood in intense prayer and coming out to His companions for strength on 3 occasions and asking our Father if there was another way, yet the ever-confident Christian thinks he can't be tested to his limits and will not be howling like a baby for God to stop.

Jesus wasn't being tested. He was having the wrath of God poured out upon Him. Our testings come with a way of escape. He had no such escape. And while I don't want to minimize the severity of testing at some points, it is always at the point of surrender to the trial that peace comes.
At this point in my life I have already fought the lion and the bear. I don't think an uncircumcised heathen will be a problem. I've also learned enough concerning the ways of God to not be surprised when trials arrive. I do understand not counting trials as all joy, but that mostly occurs because of resistance and lack of understanding in what God is doing. If God had begun Job's trial by telling him that not only would he be able to relate to Him by the hearing of his ear but that his eye would see Him, Job might have endured better. You and I have this understanding previous to our trials.

 

[Musicmaster]

What's astounding to me is the continued thrust to try and harmonize the Kingdom Gospel of the four Gospels and some of Acts with the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul. The attempts at intermixing the Law of Moses with the Grace the body of Christ is under, the ensuing confusions continue to manifest right here in this thread. Nobody here, to my knowledge, is trying to live the Law of Moses, and yet some want to try and harmonize the condemnations of the Law with Grace. That's not even under the water to oil comparison. The span is much more pronounced.

Acts 15 speaks of the Jewish believers in Jerusalem still being zealous for the Law of Moses, and professing believers today who want to take what they were under and shove it into the body of Christ under grace...why are so many so blind to the dichotomy? This is sheer madness. As an Israeli, the contrast between the two foundations are glaringly clear to me, but those of you who have grown up under the silliness of these amalgamations that only create a cacophony of confusing inconsistencies.

Wow. This is an amazing thing to behold from the perspective of someone looking at it all from the outside who was raised with the Law of Moses perspective. Why anyone would want any vestige of that ancient system that my Jewish brother Paul drew clear lines of distinction between that of Law and that of grace... Works-based salvation is a rudiment of that system the early Messianic Jewish believers were living until the fall of Israel. Do you not get that? Israel has fallen because of her own rejection of her Messiah (Luke 13) . Yeesh! This is incredible to say the least...

MM

 

[studier]

Jesus wasn't being tested. He was having the wrath of God poured out upon Him. Our testings come with a way of escape. He had no such escape. And while I don't want to minimize the severity of testing at some points, it is always at the point of surrender to the trial that peace comes.
At this point in my life I have already fought the lion and the bear. I don't think an uncircumcised heathen will be a problem. I've also learned enough concerning the ways of God to not be surprised when trials arrive. I do understand not counting trials as all joy, but that mostly occurs because of resistance and lack of understanding in what God is doing. If God had begun Job's trial by telling him that not only would he be able to relate to Him by the hearing of his ear but that his eye would see Him, Job might have endured better. You and I have this understanding previous to our trials.

Jesus was in the Garden pre-wrath and surely knew what He was to go through. That's what I speak of.

Tomorrow brings what tomorrow brings. We're as tough as we are at the time it's required of us.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus was in the Garden pre-wrath and surely knew what He was to go through. That's what I speak of.

Tomorrow brings what tomorrow brings. We're as tough as we are at the time it's required of us.

Jesus was sweating drops of blood in the garden. The wrath of God was already coming upon Him. And He did know what was coming, but He also knew no one was taking His life. He laid it down.

Not to prepare for something is not much different than preparing to fail. Recognizing trials will come, that God uses them to more intimately make Himself known to us, that there is a way of escape, that they work to our good are all things that make going through trials easier. Also, having gone through trials and seeing God's faithfulness in delivering us through them also makes going through them more palatable.

 

[BillyBob]

All flesh is like the grass according to God's Word... except to the free willers.

1Peter 1:24-25
24 for “All flesh is like grass
and all its glory like the flower of grass.
The grass withers,
and the flower falls,
25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

 

[Magenta]

Then you would surely be an inspiration to those who ended up eating their children during such times of testing or who got used as firewood and lanterns and such things in history. It's nice to know you and I'd pray for all to be just like you. BTW, there were Apostolic prayers for such endurance which further shows its importance.

Disgusting.

 

[GWH]

Meaning what exactly?

This is part of why I'm not fond of this quantitative and qualitative terminology. We have a friend on another thread that habitually uses this type of lingo typically in a seeming effort - intended or not - to blur the discussions.

Meaning that God is grieved by the lack of agreement/spiritual unity--but rather apparent apathy--regarding His good, pleasing and perfect will (love and the kerygma I keep posting). Do you also discern a divisive spirit in many as you discuss muchly on CC?

 

[GWH]

Apostates do not lose salvation.
That might anger those who want a tidy and nicely behaved household.
But, as beneficiaries of God, they can lose their inheritance by not fulfilling what is required by the grantor.

If we deny Him now?
He will deny us what would have been special blessing and rewards in eternity.

Read the following to see that what I just said is true!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. ​

​

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. ​

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, ​

the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping ​

through the flames. ​

​

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​

.......​

I believe the foundation refers to the love and kerygma I keep advocating,
and additional building refers to didachaic secondary doctrines, including perseverance, glossalalia, eschatology, etc.

I believe apostasy is repudiating the foundation one formerly affirmed,
and losing rewards refers to being wrong about some details.

 

[GWH]

What's astounding to me is the continued thrust to try and harmonize the Kingdom Gospel of the four Gospels and some of Acts with the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul. The attempts at intermixing the Law of Moses with the Grace the body of Christ is under, the ensuing confusions continue to manifest right here in this thread. Nobody here, to my knowledge, is trying to live the Law of Moses, and yet some want to try and harmonize the condemnations of the Law with Grace. That's not even under the water to oil comparison. The span is much more pronounced.

Acts 15 speaks of the Jewish believers in Jerusalem still being zealous for the Law of Moses, and professing believers today who want to take what they were under and shove it into the body of Christ under grace...why are so many so blind to the dichotomy? This is sheer madness. As an Israeli, the contrast between the two foundations are glaringly clear to me, but those of you who have grown up under the silliness of these amalgamations that only create a cacophony of confusing inconsistencies.

Wow. This is an amazing thing to behold from the perspective of someone looking at it all from the outside who was raised with the Law of Moses perspective. Why anyone would want any vestige of that ancient system that my Jewish brother Paul drew clear lines of distinction between that of Law and that of grace... Works-based salvation is a rudiment of that system the early Messianic Jewish believers were living until the fall of Israel. Do you not get that? Israel has fallen because of her own rejection of her Messiah (Luke 13) . Yeesh! This is incredible to say the least...

MM

I appreciate your perspective and would like to clarify that the correct harmonization
of the OT & NT is that found in Hebrews 7:18-10:1, right?

 

[Kroogz]

What's astounding to me is the continued thrust to try and harmonize the Kingdom Gospel of the four Gospels and some of Acts with the Gospel of Grace preached by Paul.
MM

I agree with you, from my understanding of the text. I don't really know your understanding of the text.

Here is me:

Salvation is and always has been Christ alone for salvation. For the Jews and the gentiles.

The Jews have a specific plan of works and deeds to witness to other Jews.

The Church has a specific plan to witness in the church age.

Salvation is the same.......Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. But differing groups need SPECIFIC witness to get their full attention.

Salvation is Christ alone, but Israel and the Church have different functions in the eternal kingdom.

That is so condensed, we probably could go on for 1000 pages to critique the specifics.

IMO, It creates an instant red flag with the different "Gospel." Salvation is faith alone in Christ alone. But there is a big distinction between Israel and the Church in the eternal state.

 

[sawdust]

If we have a command under grace to abide/remain/stay in union with Him so we can do productive things by His nourishing and sustaining us, is that the same as doing the 10C under the Law?





You inferred that I don't understand how grace works and that I don't understand by whose power we are saved. You seemed to say that all we need to do is rest (trust) in Him. That's where I began questioning you. By your first statement above you seem to be relating obedience to His commands under Law to obedience to His commands under NC grace and suggesting a kind of legalistic salvation for obeying His NC commands under grace.

Then your statement that God's 600 NC commands will take care of us, means what? It seems quite an ambiguous statement.

Is there any obedience to them required of us? Is there any obedience in faith? Do you see God's NC commands as @Cameron143 does in that they are descriptive of a real Christian and not prescriptive for the Christian to cooperatively do under the grace and power of God?

I don't understand why you are making it so difficult. We agree we must trust (abide) in Him and be led of the Spirit, yes? If your brother sins against you, what will the Spirit lead you to do, forgive or take revenge? Forgive, yes? But if instead you take revenge then what has happened to you? What have you done and what must you do to get back to where you should be? Beat yourself into submission to follow a command or confess your sin?

Anything you try to do in addition to worshiping God in Spirit and truth is unproductive. Everything one becomes and everything one does by word or deed ought to come out from that worship. If it doesn't, then you are entertaining works of the flesh as the way to overcome.

And please try not to take what I say so personal. I am merely stating what I believe and asking questions based on what you are saying. So far, you seem to be advocating that obedience is in addition to abiding in Him and walking in the Spirit. I am simply trying to ascertain whether I have heard you correctly.

 

[Kroogz]

So, what's the Free Grace resolution - saved, can't lose, don't measure up, bow to God's enemy, no harm, no foul, discipline unto death, no bright suit, a smaller mansion? I know this sounds sarcastic but it's nothing personal so clean it up for me.

I did. And It's simple. Do you take lightly the discipline of the Lord? Yes, you do from this response.

You equate it to a child losing a lollipop if we don't endure. For ETERNITY we will live in a winning position or a losing position.

Why do you think the warnings are so severe and dire? The rewards, ranks, crowns, and reigns are ETERNAL. FOREVER.

All believers will enter the eternal state. But not all believers will inherit the Kingdom.

It's not salvation at stake, it's ETERNAL position.

And believers who constantly put Him to open shame with "loss of salvation" are on the brink of going to the eternal state NAKED.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus was sweating drops of blood in the garden. The wrath of God was already coming upon Him.

I was under the impression that the wrath of God did not fall until Jesus was on the cross?