Loss of salvation???

[PaulThomson]

The problem with your theory is that it missed the glaring difference between Peter's gospel in Acts 2 and Paul's gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Peter specifically stated to Israel the requirement to be baptized unto the remission of sins. Paul's gospel to the Gentiles made no such demands. Paul even argued that any work for salvation nullifies it being by grace. So, it really is not that hard to see the differences apart from accusing Paul for the sin of omission in relation to a writing he had to have known was for posterity.

The lazy argument that has been put forth in other postings is that Paul was allegedly summerizing. That argument is less than pathetic in the agenda behind trying to harmonize things that are not similar in every respect.

MM

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If Paul was against baprism, why did he baptise? Paul gives the reason why he avoided baptism: so that people would not mistake baptism by him as baptism into his sect. He left baptism to his assistants to perform on converts..

Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and [Paul] received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 16:15
And when [Lydia] was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye (Paul and his companions] have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Act 16:33
And [the jailor] took them the same hour of the night, and washed [Paul's and Silas'] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

People who believed Paul's gospel were baptised by Paul's assistants.

 

[Inquisitor]

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I can go deeper into this if you like, going back as far as to a parable Jesus spoke that addresses this very thing...fitting it like a glove.

MM

I am more interested as to when Israel fell from favour?

The timing; before the crucifixion, after the crucifixion, the destruction of the temple?

 

[Genez]

Moses wasn't the "fathers" being referred to.

First verse!

21 Then the heads of the fathers’ houses of the Levites came near to Eleazar the priest, to Joshua the son of Nun, and to the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

[Genez]

I am more interested as to when Israel fell from favour?

The timing; before the crucifixion, after the crucifixion, the destruction of the temple?

Before the crucifixion:

Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees because their well accepted teachings were the prime reason for their falling from favor.

 

[Inquisitor]

Before the crucifixion:

Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees because their well accepted teachings were the prime reason for their falling from favor.

Zechariah 11:10-14
I took my staff Favour and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the Lord. I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord. Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am more interested as to when Israel fell from favour?

The timing; before the crucifixion, after the crucifixion, the destruction of the temple?

How about at the crucifixion.
The Jews said, "His blood (i.e. His death) be upon us and on our children". And His blood was completely shed, He died on the cross.

 

[Cameron143]

First verse!

21 Then the heads of the fathers’ houses of the Levites came near to Eleazar the priest, to Joshua the son of Nun, and to the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the children of Israel.

I grant you that the immediate context is the current group being spoken of, but the promise was to Abraham, and repeated to Isaac, and then to Jacob. And verse 43 makes clear that the promise fulfilled is to all Israel, as does verse 45. The land promises and all that attended it was completed when the tribe of Levi received the places promised them. They had to be last because their inheritance was dispersed within all the tribes.

 

[Musicmaster]

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If Paul was against baprism, why did he baptise? Paul gives the reason why he avoided baptism: so that people would not mistake baptism by him as baptism into his sect. He left baptism to his assistants to perform on converts..

Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and [Paul] received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 16:15
And when [Lydia] was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye (Paul and his companions] have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Act 16:33
And [the jailor] took them the same hour of the night, and washed [Paul's and Silas'] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

People who believed Paul's gospel were baptised by Paul's assistants.

The practice of having been baptized versus a command for baptism unto remission of sins from Paul, which does not exist in any of his epistles, those are two different matters entirely. They also walked on foot to many of their intercity destinations. That's not akin to a command that we all must do the same for unity or anything else.

So, if I may ask, what is your point?

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

The practice of having been baptized versus a command for baptism unto remission of sins from Paul, which does not exist in any of his epistles, those are two different matters entirely. They also walked on foot to many of their intercity destinations. That's not akin to a command that we all must do the same for unity or anything else.

So, if I may ask, what is your point?

MM

Why was Paul allowing his companions to baptise converts, if he was against baptism ?

 

[Musicmaster]

I am more interested as to when Israel fell from favour?

The timing; before the crucifixion, after the crucifixion, the destruction of the temple?

Ok, so you want something more concrete. We'll, I don't know of any verse specifically setting a date, but we can glean from contexts an approximation. Please allow me to help you draw your own conclusion from the texts. Look at Luke 13:6-9. What event took place that one year later after the ascension portrayed in the book of Acts?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Why was Paul allowing his companions to baptise converts, if he was against baptism ?

Your question assumes into my statements what I never said. Never did I even hint at the idea that Paul was against baptism. Practicing something as a public testament of an inner work through faith was never commanded by Paul to the body of Christ, especially in relation to salvation. The practice itself is something which existed among the Jews long before John the Baptist came along.

MM

 

[Kroogz]

The practice itself is something which existed among the Jews long before John the Baptist came along.

MM

This is precisely what I think and have mentioned a couple times.

Peters message to the Jews was faith alone in Christ alone. He just used their well known practices and traditions to bring them to the POINT of it all.

 

[Musicmaster]

This is precisely what I think and have mentioned a couple times.

Peters message to the Jews was faith alone in Christ alone. He just used their well known practices and traditions to bring them to the POINT of it all.

Well...let's look at what Peter said:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism, then, was a requirement for the remission of sins in order for the Jews to obtain salvation. For the Jews, there was no salvation without the remission of their sins, which had to be effected through baptism, with very few exceptions. This is a continuance of what Jesus commanded of the Jews:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Faith AND baptism was a requirement upon the Jews, given that Jesus was the Messiah who came only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel rather than the Gentiles, as is assumed by those out there who follow after replacement theology.

MM

 

[Kroogz]

Well...let's look at what Peter said:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism, then, was a requirement for the remission of sins in order for the Jews to obtain salvation. For the Jews, there was no salvation without the remission of their sins, which had to be effected through baptism, with very few exceptions. This is a continuance of what Jesus commanded of the Jews:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Faith AND baptism was a requirement upon the Jews, given that Jesus was the Messiah who came only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel rather than the Gentiles, as is assumed by those out there who follow after replacement theology.

MM

Why is baptism left out in, "but he that believeth not shall be damned?"

 

[Kroogz]

@Musicmaster

Don't get me wrong, your doctrine is as close to mine as you can get. From what I have read.

But 2 different ways of salvation? That's a tough one for me.

 

[Kroogz]

Well...let's look at what Peter said:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.




MM

Acts 5:31
31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43
43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

 

[Musicmaster]

@Musicmaster

Don't get me wrong, your doctrine is as close to mine as you can get. From what I have read.

But 2 different ways of salvation? That's a tough one for me.

Oh. OK. I think I see the dilemma.

No. I'm not saying there are two different ways for salvation. Only Paul's gospel is valid, not the Kingdom Gospel that was true for Israel back then. The wall of partition is gone until it is once again the divide between Jew and Gentile.

Hope that clarifies it all. The key is to rightly divide the word of truth...truth from truth rather than truth from falsehood since all of scripture is true, but not all was written to us.

MM

 

[Kroogz]

Oh. OK. I think I see the dilemma.

No. I'm not saying there are two different ways for salvation. Only Paul's gospel is valid, not the Kingdom Gospel that was true for Israel back then. The wall of partition is gone until it is once again the divide between Jew and Gentile.

Hope that clarifies it all. The key is to rightly divide the word of truth...truth from truth rather than truth from falsehood since all of scripture is true, but not all was written to us.

MM

To be honest, there is still a dilemma.

I believe salvation has always been the same. And only one way........ Faith alone in Christ alone.

It was in the "shadows and types" with Israel. And Paul brought it into the LIGHT for all to see.

 

[Genez]

I grant you that the immediate context is the current group being spoken of, but the promise was to Abraham, and repeated to Isaac, and then to Jacob. And verse 43 makes clear that the promise fulfilled is to all Israel, as does verse 45. The land promises and all that attended it was completed when the tribe of Levi received the places promised them. They had to be last because their inheritance was dispersed within all the tribes.

You are going in circles, sir.

If you seriously want to understand what you claim you want to understand?

Try this.... and take possibly about forty hours to study all that you need to know.
This format is terrible for answers that need a foundation to be laid before the answer can be understood.

Here is what God provided for us: https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

And, here is the list to choose from: https://www.rbthieme.org/PDF/LessonListingForWeb2014.pdf


It is sad and ridiculous to try to give a simple answer, when a person is asking for an answer had not yet developed the capacity for it.

.......

 

[Genez]

How do you understand Joshua 21:43?

Not how do you understand.

With what do you understand?