Loss of salvation???

[HeIsHere]

I see continuing in the faith as a confirmation that a person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with, and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate thereby that they are genuine believers.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

"If we have believed in vain" is not statement regarding the authenticity of their faith but rather the veracity of the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

There were people coming around telling the Corinthians that the resurrection was a fable, and Paul is setting the record straight, if the resurrection did not happen then we have believed in vain, we need to hold fast to the truth.

People seem to forget how new/novel/radical the Good News was at that time, so many of us, even when were not yet believers

were aware of the death and resurrection of Christ, we may have had an implicit belief that yes it is true because we had heard

about it over and over again, however, we did not have the full understanding of it until we received the gift of salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

Not really substantive.

Not a good era for news being meaningful.

How is this for substantive... and please note there is no mention of obedience to stay saved.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Cor 1:8-9)

He has saved us and called us to a holy life – not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.
(2 Tim 1:9)

And I am convinced and sure of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will continue until the day of Jesus Christ [right up to the time of his return], developing [that good work] and perfecting and bringing it to full completion in you.
(Php 1:6, AMP)

and...

I am thinking the great falling away are those preaching salvation maintained by personal obedience.

 

[Kroogz]

Agree 1000 %.

Hebrews is all about Falling from Grace .... which is not Falling from Justification.

"Dead" faith in James is real faith ... it is a faith however which is not in use, inoperative.

Sadly this is one of those "Lordship Salvation" false doctrines that has become widespread in the church.

Exactly. Complete agreement.

A dead faith is not loss of salvation or not really saved. A dead faith CANNOT solve/save us from any ordinary or extraordinary problems in this life. We are useless as servants.

And what is a "type" of dead faith?........Loss of salvation. There is no fellowship with the Spirit if we believe we can lose salvation.


Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,


We are His sheep, and His sheep know they will never perish........If we don't know we will never perish, how can one claim to be His sheep?

 

[Genez]

NO, the push back is because you assert obedience is necessary to maintain salvation.

Newsflash.. your salvation doctrine does not produce more salt or light... because it is not supported by scripture.

Obedience is required to maintain the spiritual power-flow and God's purpose for our salvation.
But, we remain being His property even if He should find he is going to relegate us to being placed on cinder blocks with our wheels removed.


.....Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you
.....have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore, honor
.....God with your bodies."


1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

[studier]

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

As you likely know, the argument really boils down to whether or not God continues to honor our volition and allows us to walk away if we choose to, so in response to your comment about obedience:

#1. Just because it's not mentioned in the verses you choose to present, does not mean it's not necessary. Saying it is or is not necessary per those 2 verses would both be argument from silence.

#2. NKJ John 15:9-10 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Is our obedience to God a condition for our remaining in His love

#3. NET Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back/withdraws, I take no pleasure in him.

"if he shrinks back" is a middle voice verb - this grammar emphasizes the subject - it can tell us that he withdraws with some self interest or for himself. He is withdrawing from the faith. The conditional clause looks to me like this is definite possibility and not just hypothetical. Heb10:39 says this timidity/withdrawal is into destruction (I'm leaving out annihilation just for your benefit). I've provided quite a bit to show that destruction is not good and is directly contrasted with salvation.

IMO, this is a place where we should be paying attention to this volitional withdrawal from the faith. Asserting that the entire Hebrews letter is premised upon faith-alone and eternal security is of no interest to me. I used some time to make a lot of observations and explanations I saw in Hebrews in response to another post. I'm not proof-texting a few verses. I'm honestly trying to see what the Text says without being told what it says apart from more in-depth reasoning from the grammar.

These 3 verses say to me:
- Nothing [external to ourselves] can separate us from God's love in Christ Jesus our Lord
- Our obedience to God is required for us to remain in His love
- We can withdraw ourselves from the faith (wherein IMO is being in Christ and in God's love in Christ Jesus our Lord)

Apart from inserting and asserting your faith-alone, eternal security premise, how do you see these Scriptures?

 

[Kroogz]

I am thinking the great falling away are those preaching salvation maintained by personal obedience.

I agree. We get inundated with the "sin all you want" accusation.

But it is the MORALLY corrupt that is the real problem.

And the calvies and Armins are the front runners in todays world.

2 Cor 11:14~~No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Matt 23:13~~“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven in front of people; for you do not enter it yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

 

[Kroogz]

As you likely know, the argument really boils down to whether or not God continues to honor our volition

Nope. The argument is whether or not God will honor His word.


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

 

[studier]

I am thinking the great falling away are those preaching salvation maintained by personal obedience.

And some would reason in response that any great falling away would be negating volitional obedience to God which started this whole mess we live in. And since I can tie faith and love to obedience FROM Scripture, negate obedience-negate faith-negate love, which seems to be like a great falling away from where we're supposed to be in relationship with our Creator.

 

[studier]

We get inundated with the "sin all you want" accusation.

Not by me, I hope you'll acknowledge.

And such allegations may not be personal but just saying it's the logical outworking of some faith-alone ideology even if you don't share it.

 

[studier]

Nope. The argument is whether or not God will honor His word.


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

Yuph. The argument is not that God will not honor His word, but whether or not God honors human volition. I know you fight for volition in other debates, but not here.

On another level, it may be that God will honor His word and that His word commands to responsively cooperate with Him in abiding and enduring faith-obedience or you will walk away having paid no attention to His commands to abide and endure, and having ignored His warnings as to where this may lead.

You're posting Scriptures that contrast things like shame vs. boldness, but I don't see you doing the work to prove what those words meant in the ancient culture and in the biblical context of all uses.

 

[Cameron143]

Not by me, I hope you'll acknowledge.

And such allegations may not be personal but just saying it's the logical outworking of some faith-alone ideology even if you don't share it.

It's not logical; its presumed. It's actually contrary to faithful Christian living. Only those who are without understanding or without the Spirit would allow such for themselves. Those who believe they are bought with a price will honor God in body and spirit...1 Corinthians 6:18-20.

 

[Kroogz]

Yuph. The argument is not that God will not honor His word, but whether or not God honors human volition. I know you fight for volition in other debates, but not here.

1 Cor 6:20~~For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Bought with a price~~~Justified. Therefore Glorify God in your body~~Freewill/volition.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

Freewill/volition is extremely important(more than you know IMO) in the angelic conflict. You have the privilege and opportunity to witness THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORK for us.......Loss of salvation does no such thing. You are missing out......by your own FREEWILL.

 

[studier]

It's not logical; its presumed. It's actually contrary to faithful Christian living. Only those who are without understanding or without the Spirit would allow such for themselves. Those who believe they are bought with a price will honor God in body and spirit...1 Corinthians 6:18-20.

Sounds deterministic.

 

[studier]

1 Cor 6:20~~For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Bought with a price~~~Justified. Therefore Glorify God in your body~~Freewill/volition.

Bought so volitionally obey, correct?

Freewill/volition is extremely important(more than you know IMO) in the angelic conflict. You have the privilege and opportunity to witness THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIS WORK for us.......Loss of salvation does no such thing. You are missing out......by your own FREEWILL.

I likely was taught the Angelic Conflict by its author long before you. And from what I've seen, I likely followed and reviewed the Scriptures more closely than you.

Doesn't responsively, continually and volitionally doing what He commands under His grace by His faith walking in His Spirit honor Him as a witness to His creation? Isn't the Christ/King to be obeyed - all knees shall bow?

 

[Cameron143]

Sounds deterministic.

Not deterministic; simply biblical truth.

 

[sawdust]

Yuph. The argument is not that God will not honor His word, but whether or not God honors human volition.

How can God honour human volition when that volition wants to do evil? Even when unbelievers are sent to the lake of fire, that is not God honouring their will (none of them want to be there), that is God upholding His own integrity and safeguarding those who do in fact love righteousness even when that love is imperfect.

 

[studier]

How can God honour human volition when that volition wants to do evil? Even when unbelievers are sent to the lake of fire, that is not God honouring their will (none of them want to be there), that is God upholding His own integrity and safeguarding those who do in fact love righteousness even when that love is imperfect.

Discussion in context - can believers decide to walk away from God and will God honor their choice.

Unbelievers have chosen condemnation and destruction - God honors their choce.

 

[studier]

Not deterministic; simply biblical truth.

So says everybody about their various chosen belief systems.

 

[Cameron143]

So says everybody about their various chosen belief systems.

Argue with the scripture; not me. Your conclusion was only logical if you ignore scripture.

 

[Toknow]

No worries, we have lives my friend.
As I look at your query below I find myself seeing something that I had noticed before but forgot. It is phenomenal. Shame on me for not making this a priority in the Ministry that I had been given.

Yes! John is my favorite Gospel BTW.
I try to keep everything in context. So with that said I went back and I noticed something in verse 12 in the Greek that I had noticed before but forgot. The Greek preposition eise is used. Here is the STRONG definition in respect to the Greek word. It says it is, "A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases."

Back then if the word was used, they would have thought of the basic meaning, which is "into" when they heard the word. One more thing my friend. The word believing is a present active participle. An active state of being. Hence why the translation believing is best suited in John 14:12 and other places.

John 14:12 HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME iese

Believes is denoting of an ongoing action....
we must be believing in Jesus at the time of our death.
Belief IN Jesus is not a one time occurance,,,but is to continue throughout our life.

Also, yes, IN does have a very specific meaning.
To believe Jesus means I just believe something about Him....
maybe something He stated, maybe something He might do.

To believe IN Jesus is using the word BELIEVE as it was understood at the time of the writing of the NT.
If we believe IN jesus then we believe in His very being....
We trust Him,,,learn from Him,,,follow Him,,,,pattern our life/ideas after Him.

I don't understand how it could mean INTO.

Here is the definition of a participle.

Mood: Participle (P) (Robinson's Morphological Analysis Codes)
Mood: Participle (P) - Koine Greek Grammar
Participles act as verbal adjectives; track case-number-gender agreement while retaining verbal force.
Example (English): "Make disciples, baptizing them." Matt 28:19
Example (Greek): "μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη βαπτίζοντες αὐτούς" Matt 28:19

Keep in mind if you study this out Jesus' words in John 17. In particular verses 20-23.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

i believe the IN in John 17:20 has the same meaning.

I believe the IN in JOhn 17:21 has a different meaning.
The Father is iterally IN Jesus,,,as Jesus is IN the Father.

The THAT THEY MAY ALSO BE IN US of verse 21 is not to be taken literally as in verse 21.
Do you agree?
I understand it to mean that we (christians) are to be one as Jesus and Father are one.

HERE ARE THREE TRANSLATIONS> Young's Literal Translation Got it right this time. Incidentally John 3:16 uses the same grammar and syntax.


John 14:12 (YLT) Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

John 14:12 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14:12 (NET) I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these because I am going to the Father.

I don't understand the difference between
BELIEVING INTO ME which you say is correct.
vs
BELIEVING IN ME

Here is a list of all the places the phrase "believing into" is used. Look each up if you wish. Makes for a great devotional study.

John 3:15 ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
John 3:16 ουτω γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
John 3:18 ο πιστευων εις αυτον ου κρινεται ο δε μη πιστευων ηδη κεκριται οτι μη πεπιστευκεν εις το ονομα του μονογενους υιου του θεου
John 3:36 ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον
John 6:35 ειπε δε αυτοις ο ιησους εγω ειμι ο αρτος της ζωης ο ερχομενος προς με ου μη πειναση και ο πιστευων εις εμε ου μη διψηση πωποτε
John 6:40 τουτο δε εστι το θελημα του πεμψαντος με ινα πας ο θεωρων τον υιον και πιστευων εις αυτον εχη ζωην αιωνιον και αναστησω αυτον εγω τη εσχατη ημερα
John 6:47 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εις εμε εχει ζωην αιωνιον
John 7:38 ο πιστευων εις εμε καθως ειπεν η γραφη ποταμοι εκ της κοιλιας αυτου ρευσουσιν υδατος ζωντος
John 11:25 ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
John 11:26 και πας ο ζων και πιστευων εις εμε ου μη αποθανη εις τον αιωνα πιστευεις τουτο;
John 12:44 ιησους δε εκραξε και ειπεν ο πιστευων εις εμε ου πιστευει εις εμε αλλ εις τον πεμψαντα με
John 12:46 εγω φως εις τον κοσμον εληλυθα ινα πας ο πιστευων εις εμε εν τη σκοτια μη μεινη
John 14:12 αμην αμην λεγω υμιν ο πιστευων εις εμε τα εργα α εγω ποιω κακεινος ποιησει και μειζονα τουτων ποιησει οτι εγω προς τον πατερα μου πορευομαι

But what's the difference?

Amen!

He has given us all things that pertaining to life and godliness.
It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

Without God's help we can do nothing.

Makes me think of the parable of the two sons. One said yes and did not. And the other said no and did it anyway.

Yes sir !
Doing is what counts.
Speaking counts for very little.

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.