Loss of salvation???

[Toknow]

I was using the Bing browser. I did it to save time.

I agree. If I led you to believe otherwise, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I am not relying on Greek Grammar to support my contention that the process of salvation extends from Justification to Glorification. My argument is based on Paul's use of arrabōn in Ephesians 1
What does your AI say about Pauls use of the term arrabōn in Ephesians 1?

same problem with arrabon in Eph 1.

same conflict if it means what some believe it means.

The Holy Spirit is given as a down payment.
To be redeemed at the end
IF WE PERSEVERE.

I'll bet we've all had a mortagage.
The down payment guarantees that the house is mine.
IF
I continue to make the mortgage payments till it's paid off.

If I stop making the payments...the house will be lost.

An earnest shows an intention.
A promise.
The intention must be met by both parties.

 

[Toknow]

No. Some think Eph2:8 says faith is the gift. I think the gift per the grammar is "salvation by grace through faith".

Again, no disrespect, but I'm not moving from the verb tense issue until it's resolved or completely set aside or denied because it doesn't fit a systematic theology.

If you're watching you can now see that AI is in use. So it seems part of this discussion will now involve showing how AI can provide answers to fit certain theologies and needs to be directed specifically to providing input from Greek scholarship apart from theological bias.

This is part of why I offered to paste instruction directly from a popular advanced Greek Grammar earlier and from others if necessary.

Agreed on what the gift is in Eph 2:8

Some dislike adding FAITH because it would make the faith a gift and it's too close to irrisistable grace...
but if we want to be honest...the gift is all three.

 

[sawdust]

Why don't you show the context by quoting the context of Eph2:8-9 you wish us to look at and explain what you mean as you take us through what you'd like us to consider?

I did quote the context verse, it is at the start of the chapter. Maybe I should have quoted more. Apologies for that.

Eph.2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We can see from verse one the context is regeneration, being made alive in Christ and He did this for the purpose of good works which will be produced if we continue to walk in the faith we have been given. We are not made alive based on those good works though, so why think we remain alive based on anything we do?

Being made alive in Christ by grace through faith is never going to change, it remains true at every point in time. We had no faith until that moment we were made alive. I don't understand why you think our will can undo God's work? How can He show the exceeding riches of His grace if our will can disband what the Lord has done?

 

[Genez]

Genez....
Do you believe in purgatory?

no...

why are you doing this?

 

[Toknow]

I did quote the context verse, it is at the start of the chapter. Maybe I should have quoted more. Apologies for that.

Eph.2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We can see from verse one the context is regeneration, being made alive in Christ and He did this for the purpose of good works which will be produced if we continue to walk in the faith we have been given. We are not made alive based on those good works though, so why think we remain alive based on anything we do?

Being made alive in Christ by grace through faith is never going to change, it remains true at every point in time. We had no faith until that moment we were made alive. I don't understand why you think our will can undo God's work? How can He show the exceeding riches of His grace if our will can disband what the Lord has done?

Sawdust.
You should reread what you've stated.
Really.

But I leave you in the capable hands of @studier .

Good night.

 

[sawdust]

Some will fall away.

I said they can fall away, from grace. Can they fall away from being alive and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms? Can they die again from their sin after Christ dealt with it and said it was finished? Can they undo the Lord's handiwork by the strength of their own will?

 

[Roger316]

You missed my post no. 8257 on the above subject matter.

IF Eph 2:8 teaches that salvation is assured into the future...
then Paul made conflicting statements throughout his writings.

I don't see the conflict.

No more time to post scripture....
but here:
Hebrews 6:4
1 Tim 4:1
2 Cor 11:3
Rev 2:4-5
Hebr 3:12
2 Peter 2:20-22
Romans 11:19-22

Just 1 or 2 of the above would be sufficient to cause conflict...and there are many more.

So I would suggest that Eph 2:8 has to be harmonized with the above.
No Greek necessary.

Go ahead, I am willing to listen.

You're speaking of the Mosaic Covenant.

Yes, I am. Perhaps we should look at Deuteronomy together. In summary, Moses first challenges Israel to circumcise their hearts, which Israel was unable to do. Then He prophesied that God would circumcise their hearts in the coming years so that they will finally obey him.

Paul makes this clear in Galatians and Romans, Gos circumscises our hearts,

No heart cutting in the Mosaic Covenant

I partially agree. However, have a look at Jeremiah 31:31 ff

 

[Toknow]

no...

why are you doing this?

Because you used the very passage that Catholics use for the doctrine of purgatory.

What you've posted does not, in any way shape or form mean what you might think it does.

I had a thread on this a couple of years ago,,,and many misunderstand it.

If you want,,,I'd be happy to go over it but tomorrow.
1:15AM here.

 

[Toknow]

I said they can fall away, from grace. Can they fall away from being alive and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms? Can they die again from their sin after Christ dealt with it and said it was finished? Can they undo the Lord's handiwork by the strength of their own will?

If you fall away from grace....
you no longer have God's grace.
You are no longer saved.

Must go.

 

[Genez]

Because you used the very passage that Catholics use for the doctrine of purgatory.

Catholics?
They also made up stuff to give us immaculate conception.

 

[Toknow]

I don't see the conflict.

Go ahead, I am willing to listen.

Yes, I am. Perhaps we should look at Deuteronomy together. In summary, Moses first challenges Israel to circumcise their hearts, which Israel was unable to do. Then He prophesied that God would circumcise their hearts in the coming years so that they will finally obey him.

Paul makes this clear in Galatians and Romans, Gos circumscises our hearts,

I partially agree. However, have a look at Jeremiah 31:31 ff

God turns our stoney heart to flesh in the New Covenant.
The heart is circumcised.

Circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic.
Baptism is the sign of the New

Must go.

Happy to converse with you.
Too much to know!
'night.

Take care of yourself.

 

[Toknow]

Catholics?
They also made up stuff to give us immaculate conception.

i don't mean to discuss Catholicism!
I'm saying your verse does not mean what you think.
Too tired.
Tomorrow.

The IC would be an interesting topic too.
But it requires SERIOUS discussion.
I'm having a difficult time getting that from some.

 

[studier]

What does your AI say about Pauls use of the term arrabōn in Ephesians 1?

I begin with Scripture analyzing the Greek and using Greek scholarship to refresh me when needed while also trying to keep up on current work it here and there. I work to try to understand close context, then expand outwardly and to include word studies to see if I can harmonize how God uses certain words.

One problem I've seen in experimenting with AI is that it will start us out on whatever systematic theology it may choose and if not corrected or put and kept in a more neutral position, it will keep building with the user based in that theology. It can be a bit of work to keep it directed. Then after awhile it will profile us and begin to work with us from that angle it concludes we have. So, it's back to trying to put it into some sense of neutrality so it provides better objectivity.

Bottom line, I've had to point out to AI some errors it makes and get it to go back and reassess. I've also used 3 different systems to see what seems better. Then next week an upgrade is released and to a degree the process can start again. I also read some of the resources it draws from and try to assess what level of scholarship it's drawing from.

A lot of work while in some things it can make work easier. It's a mind-boggling search engine and can impressively carry on a discussion. No doubt in my mind it's going to replace a lot of jobs.

 

[studier]

Agreed on what the gift is in Eph 2:8

Some dislike adding FAITH because it would make the faith a gift and it's too close to irrisistable grace...
but if we want to be honest...the gift is all three.

We do want to be honest and IMO there are other verses that better deal with the thinking that faith is or may be a gift. And then we have to discuss whether or not people have the faculties to believe and can choose to believe or disbelieve and on and on it seems to go.

 

[studier]

I did quote the context verse, it is at the start of the chapter. Maybe I should have quoted more. Apologies for that.

Eph.2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We can see from verse one the context is regeneration, being made alive in Christ and He did this for the purpose of good works which will be produced if we continue to walk in the faith we have been given. We are not made alive based on those good works though, so why think we remain alive based on anything we do?

Being made alive in Christ by grace through faith is never going to change, it remains true at every point in time. We had no faith until that moment we were made alive. I don't understand why you think our will can undo God's work? How can He show the exceeding riches of His grace if our will can disband what the Lord has done?

Answering the simpler ones tonight so I can shut down. Thanks for more complete version.

Since I've said a few times that I'm not moving from the verb tense issue yet, do you agree or disagree that the perfect tense verb in itself does not provide one way or another info on eternal assurance?

Do you think it's necessary for us to see eternal security in this verb tense or that we can get it elsewhere IF it's truth?

 

[sawdust]

No. Some think Eph2:8 says faith is the gift. I think the gift per the grammar is "salvation by grace through faith".

Again, no disrespect, but I'm not moving from the verb tense issue until it's resolved or completely set aside or denied because it doesn't fit a systematic theology.

If you're watching you can now see that AI is in use. So it seems part of this discussion will now involve showing how AI can provide answers to fit certain theologies and needs to be directed specifically to providing input from Greek scholarship apart from theological bias.

This is part of why I offered to paste instruction directly from a popular advanced Greek Grammar earlier and from others if necessary.

I tend not to rely on AI but rather go to places that deal with the languages from actual scholars if I can.

I have no problem seeing the verse as applying to the present moment only. I would like you to tell me though at what present moment does it no longer hold true? We did not do this, God did, so why should it rely on us at any time? Do you think God making us alive had something to do with our will as if we had some part to play in this decision of being made alive, placed in Christ and seated in the heavenly realms? How can God boast of His grace if we made some contribution to this? Should we not get some credit as well if that is so?

So whose faith saw us saved? We had none till the word dwelt in us. I believe that is why the scripture says Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb.12:2 It is His faith that initiates faith in us and it becomes our faith as we live by the gift we are given. That's why it is called an inheritance and not a wage. We did not earn it, Christ won it for us and is pleased to share His life with us. If He didn't want to do that we would all be cooked, literally.

 

[sawdust]

If you fall away from grace....
you no longer have God's grace.
You are no longer saved.

Must go.

So you say.

 

[sawdust]

Answering the simpler ones tonight so I can shut down. Thanks for more complete version.

Since I've said a few times that I'm not moving from the verb tense issue yet, do you agree or disagree that the perfect tense verb in itself does not provide one way or another info on eternal assurance?

Do you think it's necessary for us to see eternal security in this verb tense or that we can get it elsewhere IF it's truth?

I can agree the doctrine of eternal security cannot be built on this verse alone based on the tense of the verb.

I think what we disagree on is whether there is any part we play in this verse. You seem to see some sort of dependence on us in this verse, I see none. It is for that reason, rather than the tense of the verse, why I say it is forever true and you see it failing under certain conditions. Correct me if I'm hearing you wrong.

 

[Mem]

You're welcome.
But not in the Eph2:8 verb tense, so where?

Seeing an opportunity, and taking full advantage of it to share Col 3:3

For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

These are the aorist indicative active and the perfect indicative middle or passive.

Our life is hidden with Christ in God. How or when then, would it be (re)vealed?

 

[CS1]

In the great big world of Protestantism CS1.....
YOU know just as much as I do.

Just because you're a minister does not mean you are CORRECTLY teaching the NT.
YOU might be minunderstanding doctrine just as much as anyone esle.

Can't address what I spent a good deal of time on?

Fine.

But don't insult me in your non-reply.

I gave you REASONS why i don't agree with you. ( I did NOT tell you I know it all).

Can YOU give ME reasons why you're right?

Apparently not.

Just because you are not one doesn't you are either. I made my point very clear. I was accused of making Paul a false prophet. If you did not see that, then you are speaking on something you know nothing about. Thank you.