Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF

[Jullianna]

"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:31

As some of you who know me have probably suspected, there are times when PTSD will raise its ugly head and I find myself terribly overwhelmed by not only past events, but present tragic events that I face on a daily basis. I'm not God. I'm human. (Even though I am Batgirl ) I can't save the world. I can't fix everything. I can't help everyone I want to help. And even though I know all of this, there are times when it reeeeally weighs me down (even though I know that the Lord says His yoke is easy and His burden is light). Saturday was such a time. It hit me like a ton of bricks. Seriously. (And thanks for your prayers, Liamson, btw)

Fortunately, not only did I release so much of it to God, I also had someone very special there to catch me. He told me that I needed to learn how to put myself first sometimes and stop living it in a way that's best for everyone else. This scripture came to mind.

I need to learn how to love myself. It must be okay in certain forms (Not in an "I'm all that" selfish kinda way though ). It's right there in the scripture, isn't it?

Am I the only one who doesn't know how to do this very well? Do any of you struggle with putting what you might want or need before everyone else who needs you (or claims to)?

Please understand that I'm not talking about ignoring callings/duties God may have for us and I'm certainly not talking about putting our needs before our children, or anything like that. Hopefully everyone who reads this will be mature enough to understand what I'm trying to say here without twisting things around.

What good can we possibly be to others if we don't take care of ourselves or push ourselves until we are absolutely overwhelmed and exhausted? Jesus withdrew from the masses from time to time to spend time alone with God. Seems like He certainly understood what I'm talking about. I really need to allow Him to teach me how to better handle this.

Your thoughts? Anyone else struggling with this? Do you know how to love yourself (we know zaoman does ...joking...)? Does it make you feel selfish?

 

[arwen83]

Thanks for this thread Jullianna, this verse is SOOOOO interesting! Because we tend to leave out the 'love yourself' part. It is commonly used as a way to direct a person to treat someone fairly- to love them more than you love yourself. To put them before you. BUT... the 'as you love yourself' part should be looked at- what if you don't love yourself? What if you have self-contempt? A low-self esteem and hate yourself? What if you don't take care of yourself? What if you disregard good things? What if you cut yourself?

In this context to love someone as you love yourself, you would express hate, disregard, physical punishment and neglect towards that person. And since we are not called to do those things, then we must build ourselves up. You cannot give what you don't have. In the end, people will become exhausted and weary, because they are showing love and care to others, but are not showing it to themselves. To love oneself doesn't mean to be selfish but to act in self-care, whatever that looks like.

 

[zaoman32]

Appreciate the end comment...at least you know I have it figured out

In all seriousness though, this is a verse I still really struggle with, do I love myself? Yes, but more in a selfish, self-serving way which is not good. I think there's an understanding of knowing who we are in God's eyes to obtain first, but knowing who we are, and loving ourselves in this more holy God-pleasing way is something entirely different as well.

Again, still something I struggle with, and should probably pray about it more.

 

[zeroturbulence]

Doing work for others is certainly honorable and in line with God's will, but it can get to the point where it is like an addiction, and that would be the point where your penchant for helping others begins to cause significant damage to your own health, life and relationships.

 

[zeroturbulence]

So my point is that it might not be so much about loving yourself as it is about letting go of an addictive behavior/impulse, but I'm no expert and I believe you would be the better judge of that.

 

[1still_waters]

I get what you're saying.
We need to take time to take care of ourselves too.

My caution with interpreting this verse this way, is that Jesus was going on the assumption, that in general, people do care for their own interests, and that they should love others with the same amount of concern for others' interests as they do for themselves. I think if we're not careful, we can use this verse to look inward, instead of outward, which is Jesus' point in this verse, in my opinion.

Jesus said in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for man.
Man/woman needs time to rest, refresh, and find rest in God.

Often in the new covenant, we assume we don't need physical rest, seeing Jesus is our spiritual rest.
We also need a physical Sabbath of sorts, seeing the weights of this world still exist for us, despite being in our spiritual rest.

Jesus has made rest for us.
A literal day of rest.
We can take advantage of it.

One of the major commandments is really about self care and rest.
The Sabbath!
A day to focus on God and rest and recover from work.

By taking in that God given rest, we can more effectively love others, and love God.

 

[Jullianna]

I get what you are saying Stilly. I've always looked at it exactly that way, until today. God desires us to love Him and others; because He loves us ALL, rather than hurting and/or neglecting one another. Absolutely. And I do hope no one takes any of this as an endorsement to be self-absorbed in any way.

But arwen makes an interesting point. If we don't know how to love ourselves in the context of the comparison Jesus is making, how can we bring that forward in a healthy way and live it out with others?

 

[seoulsearch]

This is an awesome thread, Jullianna, and an especially good reminder for people who feel their most urgent calling is to care for other people. Any nurturer or caregiver knows that we often sacrifice the care of self for the care of others.

I'm going through a time in which I don't like people very much and have even less faith in them. For instance, a woman came into where I work today and literally threw things at one of our girls because she was angry about the price of something. I personally wanted to pick this woman up and throw HER--off the steepest cliff I could find. I was thinking, "HOW DARE you treat someone I work with like that!!!" and I prayed that God would bless her.

With swift and unmovable correction, because I feel that's what God always does to me, and aren't we supposed to love others as God loves us???!! Yup, it's my rebellious side kicking into full swing.

I find myself wrestling with unGodly attitudes towards people all the time... Part of it, of course, is my own pride. But there was also a time when I believe God told me, "You don't like other people very much... because right now you don't like yourself." I am constantly on diets, spiritual fasts, prayer and study binges in between fits of rebellion... trying to force myself into certain molds I feel would make me happier if only I could pour myself into them.

I also agree with Zero in that caring for others sometimes becomes an addiction instead of a calling. Being alone for a long time has often tempted me to fill the void with the approval of others, and approval has sometimes become more important to me than God's will. In that sense, I also agree with Stillwaters that we have to be careful of the very thin line between self-care and self-absorption.

Thanks again, Jules, for your honesty and a very thought-provoking thread. Here's to all of us in our quest to balance God's will not only for those we are called to, but for ourselves as well.

 

[Jullianna]

Thanks, Kim. Zero is spot on with the addiction thing. After my husband died, I buried myself in work and taking care of my son, and my parents. If I didn't have a quiet moment, I didn't have to think or feel or face... And I became a workaholic. But God is good and I know it's time to make changes...or let HIM make changes...in me.

 

[1still_waters]

But arwen makes an interesting point. If we don't know how to love ourselves in the context of the comparison Jesus is making, how can we bring that forward in a healthy way and live it out with others?

I think the sample size of people who do even the most simple form of looking out for their most basic of interests,significantly out weighs those who have no interest in even feeding or clothing themselves.

If someone doesn't even have the desire to eat, be clothed, find shelter, then yes, their ability to love others, probably is going to be severely impeded.

I think if someone is seeking to feed themselves, find shelter, find clothing, then they are in fact in possession of the basic love of self Jesus is getting at. And Jesus is making the point that we're to take that same basic self interest and do it unto others.

So I guess, if there is someone who isn't trying to feed themselves, find shelter, find clothing, then yes, they aren't going to know how to love others. On the other hand, if someone IS seeking to at least eat, find shelter, find clothing, I'd find it hard to say such a person doesn't have an idea of what it means to "love themselves".

 

[Jullianna]

That makes sense on the most basic of levels.

What about the self-loathers arwen mentioned though? What is at the core of that? Does it happen because people become too self-absorbed and can't live up to their own expectations? Is it because they accept the criticisms and mockery they have received from others throughout their lives as truth? Is it a little bit of both? We probably all exchange the truth for a lie on some level from time to time.

Maybe there's even more to it than I realized. Maybe there's a sense of balance here.

Have you ever noticed that when you find yourself feeling very down, it helps to step out of yourself for a season? It can seemingly make your troubles appear less intimidating than they did at first....even though, as I said above, getting carried away with that is unhealthy too.

 

[seoulsearch]

Still,

I totally respect what you're saying and can completely relate--most often the problem is that we're TOO tuned into self rather than into God.

But I also think I know what Jullianna is saying in that, I've struggled with depression all my life and self-care often becomes a horrible chore rather than something you really do. I hope I'm not offending anyone by this example, but anyone who has been married knows that sex, while wonderful and exciting and a gift from God, eventually can get to a point where it seems like just another chore on your "to do" list as part of being a responsible (Christian) human being.

Self-care becomes the same way. Yes, you feed yourself, but that's after two days of not eating because the black cloud over your heart is sapping away all your energy, and when you do eat, it's because of a rib-cracking hunger you can no longer ignore, and you pick up 2 Super-Sized Value meals because you don't have the motivation to cook anything. Yes, you dress yourself in the same old t-shirt and jeans you've had for 10 years... But out of obligation, not because you actually care. You pay your bills (seek shelter) because again, you're doing the responsible thing and you don't want anyone to know how bad things really are.

But your heart isn't in it. And, if truth be told (and this is just me), you go through many times when you're so overwhelmed that you'd rather die than live (Paul said it was better to die and be with the Lord than to stay here on earth, and my whole life I've agreed with this, in very unhealthy ways).

Self-care becomes self-hate, because the only reason you're doing it is because you feel an obligation and/or an immense fear of failure. But that doesn't mean your heart is in it or that you really mean it or that you're truly taking good care of yourself... or anyone else.

 

[1still_waters]

That makes sense on the most basic of levels.

What about the self-loathers arwen mentioned though? What is at the core of that? Does it happen because people become too self-absorbed and can't live up to their own expectations? Is it because they accept the criticisms and mockery they have received from others throughout their lives as truth? Is it a little bit of both? We probably all exchange the truth for a lie on some level from time to time.

Maybe there's even more to it than I realized. Maybe there's a sense of balance here.

Have you ever noticed that when you find yourself feeling very down, it helps to step out of yourself for a season? It can seemingly make your troubles appear less intimidating than they did at first....even though, as I said above, getting carried away with that is unhealthy too.

I'm going to get very John Piper-ish here.
I think self-loathing is about people trying to find delight in an inferior joy.

God is the ultimate joy.
God is the ultimate delight.

To me, self loathing is pride in reverse.
Pride happens when you find pleasure in self.
Self-loathing happens when you don't find pleasure in self.

We try filling that desire with an inferior delight.
We need to fill that desire with a pleasure/joy that can never be taken away.
God's glory.
Human pride and beauty is like the flowers in a field.
They wither.
Any joy found in it will last for a second.


This all sounds so easy and academic.
But like anything in this walk with God, it's a constant struggle.
But if there were no struggle, we wouldn't have anything to overcome.
And we wouldn't be over comers.

 

[Jullianna]

To me, self loathing is pride in reverse.
Pride happens when you find pleasure in self.
Self-loathing happens when you don't find pleasure in self.

Good stuff, especially this part. Balance.

 

[1still_waters]

Anyways I won't belabor my points.
I feel like I'm turning Jullianna's thread into hair-splitting-pah-looza 2013,

I get the main idea of what she's sayin and to me it's legit.

 

[rachelsedge]

A lot of good discussion.

1still_waters, I agree with you in that self-loathing is pride reversed. It's just as self-centered as conceitedness, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I'm a very caring and nurturing person. I go out of my way to do so. But in order to do that fully, I had to learn to love myself. I hated myself for a while in high school. In college that changed, and it was there that I learned that I did need to love myself. How can I tell a teen girl who is struggling with things that God loves her so deeply, no matter what she does or doesn't do, when I hardly could believe that about myself? Isn't that hypocritical? Now that I'm loving myself through Jesus (though it's still often a struggle to see myself as He sees me) I find that the way I love other people is more effective, sincere, and meaningful.

 

[Relena7]

During a rare epiphany, I once felt what it was like to genuinely love myself. The first and (so far) only time ever. That was also the first week of my life that I felt like I loved everyone else too, for no reason at all. I could actually see all the good in myself. And only then could I see the good in everyone else.

And no, it was not selfish in the way we think of "selfish".

It was like being 100% selfish and 100% unselfish at the exact same time.
I don't think there is a word for it in the English language.

 

[arwen83]

During a rare epiphany, I once felt what it was like to genuinely love myself. The first and (so far) only time ever. That was also the first week of my life that I felt like I loved everyone else too, for no reason at all. I could actually see all the good in myself. And only then could I see the good in everyone else.

And no, it was not selfish in the way we think of "selfish".

It was like being 100% selfish and 100% unselfish at the exact same time.
I don't think there is a word for it in the English language.

*hoping for an epiphany* lol That sounds like a wonderful experience and I completely agree

 

[Ritter]

This is taking a different tack on things, but Rene Girard pointed out the great meaning of Jesus' commandment.

If we love others less than we love ourselves, we are prideful. If we love others more than we love ourselves we are, in a way, creating idols and creating mimetic desire which ultimately causes suffering, because this mimetic desire is not being focused on Christ.

For those unfamiliar with Mr. Girard: René Girard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SeanS]

"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

I need to learn how to love myself. It must be okay in certain forms (Not in an "I'm all that" selfish kinda way though ). It's right there in the scripture, isn't it?

What im about to say is going to get me more hate responses on this forum than ever, but oh we'll lol. That view of this verse is simply not scriptural and is contrary to everything Jesus taught. Jesus taught that we have to learn to love ourselves less than we already do and love others more.

In John 12:25 Jesus says- 'He who hates his life in this world will gain it in the next'

Jesus lived this principle out in his own life, look what he says in Matthew 8:19-20: 'Then a scribe came and said to him 'teacher, I will follow you wherever you go', Jesus said to him 'the foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head'.

Paul taught the exact same concept in Philippians 2:3- 'Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourself'.

And in 2 Timothy 3:12, when Paul is describing how evil people will behave in the future he lists 'lovers of self' as one of their characteristics: 'for men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revivers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy......... Etc'.

Mark 12:31: 'love your neighbour as yourself'

Here Jesus is not saying 'you need to love yourself more'. You already love yourself, its fallen human nature. For example, let me ask you this:

Who's hair did you brush this morning?
Who did you feed this morning?
Who did you wash this morning?

And for how many neighbours did you do these three things? Even the person who hates himself the most still does these things for himself and not his neighbour.

The message of the verse is 'if you loved your neighbour a fraction of the amount you loved yourself, you'd be doing well'.

So, it's our responsibility to focus on loving ourselves less and gearing that love towards others.