Luke 11:19 - who are "your sons"?

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studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#1
Transferring an off-topic current discussion (if interested you'll need to go back a ways) to it's own thread:

Luke 11:19 (My translation with some elaboration) “and if [and let’s assume that it’s true for the sake of argument] I, by Beelzebul, am casting out the demons, [then] your sons, by whom are they casting out [the demons]? Therefore/For this reason, they (your sons) will be your judges.

Since these open discussions become hard to follow, I’m just going to lay out my current conclusion re: the identity of “your sons” in Luke 11:19 per the way I see the argumentation following Jesus casting out the mute demon Luke 11:14.
  • I currently agree with the work of A. T. Roberston in his book, A Harmony of the Gospels… re: this event in Luke 11 not being the same event as recorded in Matthew 12 and Mark 3.
  • Much of this is rhetorical argumentation using Greek first-class conditional clauses meaning the “if” means; “if [and let’s assume it’s true for the sake of argument].”
    • Jesus is showing the false allegations being made against Him have no basis in proper knowledge or reasoning.
  • When Jesus establishes that “Every kingdom dividing against itself is being destroyed/ depopulated…”:
    • He is establishing that NO lasting kingdom divides against itself.
      • So, Satan is not dividing against himself.
        • So, Satan is not casting out the demons.
          • So, Jesus is not casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
            • So, their allegation against Jesus is false.
            • Case closed.
          • So, neither are “your sons” casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
            • No one is casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons, because Satan is not dividing = destroying his kingdom.
            • If you falsely accuse Jesus, then you also falsely accuse your sons.
              • They will judge you.
              • Case closed.
  • I don’t see any case to be made that Satan is casting out the demons. Not by Jesus' rhetorical argument nor due to the following:
    • In Acts 19:13... Traveling Jewish exorcists were “attempting/trying by their own hand to name the name of the Lord Jesus against people who had evil spirits. They were saying, I command/adjure you by (under oath to) Jesus whom Paul proclaims.
      • This speaks of men attempting by their own effort to name the Lord Jesus as if they were under oath to Jesus.
      • There is nothing in the NC that says anyone can swear an oath to Jesus and attempt by their own means to name His name and command evil spirits in people.
      • These are clearly traveling Jewish charlatans likely doing this for profit for a living.
      • Some sons of a Jewish chief priest attempted to copy this activity and the man in whom the evil spirit was existing basically said, ‘who do you think you are’ and jumped on them, overpowered (mastered) them, and sent them naked and wounded fleeing from the house.
        • I’d bet their Jewish chief priest father also had something say to them for this supposed oath to Jesus.
    • In Mark 9:38-40 Jesus’ disciples had seen a man casting out demons in Jesus’ name and since this man was not following Jesus’ disciples (maybe they were alleging the man was not following Jesus or His disciples), they tried to forbid him from doing so.
      • This is different language than used in Acts 19. There is no mention of a claim made to being under oath to Jesus.
      • This man was miraculously casting out demons in Jesus’ name.
      • Jesus commanded His disciples to not forbid/hinder the man and then instructed that no one who will be doing miracles based upon Jesus’ name will soon be able to speak evil of Jesus, and he who is not against us, is for us.
      • This casting out of demons in Jesus’ name is said to be a miracle and Jesus does not forbid it.
      • We’re not told if this man is a believer or not. The point is he is doing a miracle in Jesus’ name – actually casting out a demon in Jesus’ name – and won’t soon be speaking evil of Jesus.
    • It was pointed out in the other thread that in Matthew 9:32-34 Jesus’ casting out of a demon resulted in the crowds’ amazement, saying, “never did such appear in Israel.”
      • This was a good observation. It tells us that this casting out of demons prior to Jesus was not seen in Israel – at least by those who said this.
      • When it says the Pharisees said Jesus by the ruler of the demons is casting out the demons, I note that this is not clearly saying the Pharisees are there. To draw out the verb tense it probably should be translated as the NAS Bible translates it, ‘the Pharisees were saying… and could well be pointing out what had begun earlier.
I’m stopping here for the moment. Here’s how I summarize how I currently see re: “your sons” in Luke 11:19:
  • There seems to be no reason to think false exorcisms are taking place in Israel.
  • It’s clear that Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God arrived.
  • The crowds were amazed at Jesus casting out demons and say they had never seen such a thing.
  • Traveling charlatans had some oath formula they apparently came up with and we are not told it worked for them. When the sons of the Jewish chief priest tried to copy this process, the demon possessed man beat them up and humiliated them.
  • The man not following Jesus’ disciples was seen by them doing miracles in Jesus’ name and Jesus commanded he be left alone because miracles (not magic) being done in Jesus’ name is indicative of support (miracles by the Spirit?) for what Jesus and His disciples were doing and couldn’t readily be used against Jesus or His disciples.
  • So, I see no reason to make the assumption that Jesus is suggesting in Luke 11:19 that “your sons” in Luke 11 is to be seen as Jesus saying anyone is doing fake exorcisms.
  • I rather see Jesus as saying in the context of all of this, what goes along with His rhetorical argument:
    • Satan does not divide his kingdom – his household.
    • What the crowds are seeing is the Kingdom of God being here.
    • No one is doing any fake exorcism – not Jesus or your (the crowds') sons.
      • “your sons” can be Jesus’ disciples (the 12-70 seen earlier in Luke 9:1 and 12:17 who were dealing with demons) and/or men not following Jesus’ disciples but doing miracles (not magic or any trickery) in Jesus name (Mark 9:38-40).
      • They are sons of those in the crowd – sons of Israel. Those not accusing Jesus of being satanic but following Jesus and/or doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
        • Such will judge those who accuse Jesus of being satanic. To judge Jesus is also to judge them. They will stand in witnesses against unbelief and denigration of the Spirt.
      • Jesus referring to them as “your sons” is rhetorical in that he is shifting the focus to the others – likely many - among the sons of Israel who are casting out demons whether they be Jesus’ Disciples, or men doing miracles in His name who Jesus sees as being for Him and His disciples and not against them. Men who will not or cannot quickly disavow Jesus when they are doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
        • In this regard, Jesus is accomplishing much in one rhetorical statement attached to His rhetorical argumentation that their accusation is absurd. And the logic in Jesus’ rhetorical argument cannot be defeated without changing it.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#2
It’s clear that Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God arrived.
yes. Jesus further stated that He is the "stronger" ... and He overcame the strong man ...

Luke 11:


20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.


Jesus is the Stronger than the strong man (satan) ...


1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. :cool:
.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
450
83
#3
Transferring an off-topic current discussion (if interested you'll need to go back a ways) to it's own thread:

Luke 11:19 (My translation with some elaboration) “and if [and let’s assume that it’s true for the sake of argument] I, by Beelzebul, am casting out the demons, [then] your sons, by whom are they casting out [the demons]? Therefore/For this reason, they (your sons) will be your judges.

Since these open discussions become hard to follow, I’m just going to lay out my current conclusion re: the identity of “your sons” in Luke 11:19 per the way I see the argumentation following Jesus casting out the mute demon Luke 11:14.
  • I currently agree with the work of A. T. Roberston in his book, A Harmony of the Gospels… re: this event in Luke 11 not being the same event as recorded in Matthew 12 and Mark 3.
  • Much of this is rhetorical argumentation using Greek first-class conditional clauses meaning the “if” means; “if [and let’s assume it’s true for the sake of argument].”
    • Jesus is showing the false allegations being made against Him have no basis in proper knowledge or reasoning.
  • When Jesus establishes that “Every kingdom dividing against itself is being destroyed/ depopulated…”:
    • He is establishing that NO lasting kingdom divides against itself.
      • So, Satan is not dividing against himself.
        • So, Satan is not casting out the demons.
          • So, Jesus is not casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
            • So, their allegation against Jesus is false.
            • Case closed.
          • So, neither are “your sons” casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
            • No one is casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons, because Satan is not dividing = destroying his kingdom.
            • If you falsely accuse Jesus, then you also falsely accuse your sons.
              • They will judge you.
              • Case closed.
  • I don’t see any case to be made that Satan is casting out the demons. Not by Jesus' rhetorical argument nor due to the following:
    • In Acts 19:13... Traveling Jewish exorcists were “attempting/trying by their own hand to name the name of the Lord Jesus against people who had evil spirits. They were saying, I command/adjure you by (under oath to) Jesus whom Paul proclaims.
      • This speaks of men attempting by their own effort to name the Lord Jesus as if they were under oath to Jesus.
      • There is nothing in the NC that says anyone can swear an oath to Jesus and attempt by their own means to name His name and command evil spirits in people.
      • These are clearly traveling Jewish charlatans likely doing this for profit for a living.
      • Some sons of a Jewish chief priest attempted to copy this activity and the man in whom the evil spirit was existing basically said, ‘who do you think you are’ and jumped on them, overpowered (mastered) them, and sent them naked and wounded fleeing from the house.
        • I’d bet their Jewish chief priest father also had something say to them for this supposed oath to Jesus.
    • In Mark 9:38-40 Jesus’ disciples had seen a man casting out demons in Jesus’ name and since this man was not following Jesus’ disciples (maybe they were alleging the man was not following Jesus or His disciples), they tried to forbid him from doing so.
      • This is different language than used in Acts 19. There is no mention of a claim made to being under oath to Jesus.
      • This man was miraculously casting out demons in Jesus’ name.
      • Jesus commanded His disciples to not forbid/hinder the man and then instructed that no one who will be doing miracles based upon Jesus’ name will soon be able to speak evil of Jesus, and he who is not against us, is for us.
      • This casting out of demons in Jesus’ name is said to be a miracle and Jesus does not forbid it.
      • We’re not told if this man is a believer or not. The point is he is doing a miracle in Jesus’ name – actually casting out a demon in Jesus’ name – and won’t soon be speaking evil of Jesus.
    • It was pointed out in the other thread that in Matthew 9:32-34 Jesus’ casting out of a demon resulted in the crowds’ amazement, saying, “never did such appear in Israel.”
      • This was a good observation. It tells us that this casting out of demons prior to Jesus was not seen in Israel – at least by those who said this.
      • When it says the Pharisees said Jesus by the ruler of the demons is casting out the demons, I note that this is not clearly saying the Pharisees are there. To draw out the verb tense it probably should be translated as the NAS Bible translates it, ‘the Pharisees were saying… and could well be pointing out what had begun earlier.
I’m stopping here for the moment. Here’s how I summarize how I currently see re: “your sons” in Luke 11:19:
  • There seems to be no reason to think false exorcisms are taking place in Israel.
  • It’s clear that Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God arrived.
  • The crowds were amazed at Jesus casting out demons and say they had never seen such a thing.
  • Traveling charlatans had some oath formula they apparently came up with and we are not told it worked for them. When the sons of the Jewish chief priest tried to copy this process, the demon possessed man beat them up and humiliated them.
  • The man not following Jesus’ disciples was seen by them doing miracles in Jesus’ name and Jesus commanded he be left alone because miracles (not magic) being done in Jesus’ name is indicative of support (miracles by the Spirit?) for what Jesus and His disciples were doing and couldn’t readily be used against Jesus or His disciples.
  • So, I see no reason to make the assumption that Jesus is suggesting in Luke 11:19 that “your sons” in Luke 11 is to be seen as Jesus saying anyone is doing fake exorcisms.
  • I rather see Jesus as saying in the context of all of this, what goes along with His rhetorical argument:
    • Satan does not divide his kingdom – his household.
    • What the crowds are seeing is the Kingdom of God being here.
    • No one is doing any fake exorcism – not Jesus or your (the crowds') sons.
      • “your sons” can be Jesus’ disciples (the 12-70 seen earlier in Luke 9:1 and 12:17 who were dealing with demons) and/or men not following Jesus’ disciples but doing miracles (not magic or any trickery) in Jesus name (Mark 9:38-40).
      • They are sons of those in the crowd – sons of Israel. Those not accusing Jesus of being satanic but following Jesus and/or doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
        • Such will judge those who accuse Jesus of being satanic. To judge Jesus is also to judge them. They will stand in witnesses against unbelief and denigration of the Spirt.
      • Jesus referring to them as “your sons” is rhetorical in that he is shifting the focus to the others – likely many - among the sons of Israel who are casting out demons whether they be Jesus’ Disciples, or men doing miracles in His name who Jesus sees as being for Him and His disciples and not against them. Men who will not or cannot quickly disavow Jesus when they are doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
        • In this regard, Jesus is accomplishing much in one rhetorical statement attached to His rhetorical argumentation that their accusation is absurd. And the logic in Jesus’ rhetorical argument cannot be defeated without changing it.
An alternative understanding would be that exorcism was not practised under Judaism. Under Judaism demon-possessed were either exiled or stoned to death. Jesus came casting out demons. This was a new approach and was working, and his disciples were doing the same in His name. Other Jews, seeing this practice and its efficacy, tried to imitate it, thinking accurate imitation would produce the same results.
It is possible that Jesus is subtly pointing out that He and His disciples are doing something the sons of Belial, their sons, cannot do and are not doing. When He asks, by whom do your sons cast them out, their response would have to be "Our sons don't cast them out." Jesus would be then saying, "Exactly, and the reason they are not casting out demons is because satan cannot cast out satan, and your sons are sons of Belial."

I have heard evangelists use similar irony when religious people criticise them for opening with the law and sin and judgment. They will ask "So, what are you doing that is getting people to repent and trust in Christ?" The critics don't have an answer, because they are not winning souls to Christ.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#5
What Article did you copy/paste the comment from? Just wondering. Normally, one provides a "link" to the Article.
The link I supplied is to part of the discussion on the thread where it began. Within that discussion, I mentioned an article that is footnoted in the NET Bible and in several other places I noticed in some online searches for the article. I purchased the article along the way in the discussion but cannot post it.

The conclusion (and any error) I posted is my own from looking mainly at the Text and at the details in the article and others. I did use some of the points from the article that I agreed with. Maybe several.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
1,189
233
63
#6
An alternative understanding would be that exorcism was not practised under Judaism. Under Judaism demon-possessed were either exiled or stoned to death. Jesus came casting out demons. This was a new approach and was working, and his disciples were doing the same in His name. Other Jews, seeing this practice and its efficacy, tried to imitate it, thinking accurate imitation would produce the same results.
It is possible that Jesus is subtly pointing out that He and His disciples are doing something the sons of Belial, their sons, cannot do and are not doing. When He asks, by whom do your sons cast them out, their response would have to be "Our sons don't cast them out." Jesus would be then saying, "Exactly, and the reason they are not casting out demons is because satan cannot cast out satan, and your sons are sons of Belial."

I have heard evangelists use similar irony when religious people criticise them for opening with the law and sin and judgment. They will ask "So, what are you doing that is getting people to repent and trust in Christ?" The critics don't have an answer, because they are not winning souls to Christ.

Honestly, I never looked that deeply into this topic before this discussion. I knew some of the interpretations and had read some of the takes on the logic, but recall thinking they were questionable.

Apparently, it seems Jewish exorcism was practiced. There are some footnotes referenced in in the article I have: Outside the NT: Josephus, Ant. 8.45-48; Wars 7.185; Tob. 8.2. 3; Justin Martyr, Dialogue 85; IQapGen 20.29; Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai (AD 80); Rabbi Schimeon ben Jochai (AD150); Str-B, IV.1, pp. 533-35.

Please don't ask me to locate or review them!

Or, here are a couple quick links I noticed that deal with the topic:

https://brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9789004217447/B9789004217447_013.xml Abstract

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-exorcism/

Your response is an example of why I was saying the logic has to work. So do the facts re: Jewish exorcisms, I think. Thanks for posting it.

Some commentaries apparently take the position the logic does not work. Some apparently posit that Jesus' argument re: judgment is ad hominem.

So:
  • #1 - Assume there are Jewish exorcists, but none that have done anything like Jesus and His Disciples.
    • #A:
      • JESUS: Satan does not cast out demons.
        • So, I'm not casting out demons by Satan
      • If I were casting out demons by Satan,
        • Then by whom are your sons casting out demons (because they are casting out demons).
      • CROWDS:
        • We don't accept your premise, Jesus, Satan does cast out demons,
          • But our sons do not cast out by Satan, and you do - just like we said
            • Bring on the judgment - Our sons are innocent and so are we
            • (seems a go-nowhere, childish argument)
        • Or - We accept your premise, Jesus, Satan does not cast out demons,
          • So, you're not casting out demons by Satan, nor are our sons casting out demons by Satan
            • (Jesus wins the argument)
            • Who are "your sons"?
              • Jesus' Disciples?
              • Any exorcist truly exorcising?
                • The crowds accepted Jesus premise.
                  • Even if their sons are satanic, the crowd can be quiet now - the argument is done - Jesus has actually given them an out to be quiet and contemplate His judgment remark - they might even be looking at their sons more critically.
    • #B ???
  • #2 - Assume there are no Jewish exorcists, and no one has ever cast out demons, but Jesus and His Disciples:
    • #A: (your proposed conclusion with an "or" option)
      • JESUS: Satan does not cast out demons.
        • So, I'm not casting out demons by Satan
      • If I were casting out demons by Satan,
        • Then by whom are your sons casting out demons (but they're not casting out demons).
      • CROWDS:
        • We accepts Jesus' premise and conclusion - we cannot and are not casting out demons.
          • We are satanic.
          • Or - we are not satanic and are we not in God's Kingdom.
          • Maybe we should listen up and consider Jesus and this judgment by our do-nothing sons.
        • Or - We do not accept Jesus' premise and conclusion:
          • Satan does cast out demons
          • You Jesus are casting out demons by Satan, just like we said you are
          • Our sons are not casting out demons - because they and we are not of Satan - simple.
          • Bring on the judgment - our sons are innocent and so are we.
            • (seems like a go-nowhere, childish argument)
    • #B: ???
Your input is appreciated. Most days this ties my head in knots. Since there are several suggested interpretations, maybe I'm not alone. Call in the philosophy majors well-versed in logic.