Transferring an off-topic current discussion (if interested you'll need to go back a ways) to it's own thread:
Luke 11:19 (My translation with some elaboration) “and if [and let’s assume that it’s true for the sake of argument] I, by Beelzebul, am casting out the demons, [then] your sons, by whom are they casting out [the demons]? Therefore/For this reason, they (your sons) will be your judges.
Since these open discussions become hard to follow, I’m just going to lay out my current conclusion re: the identity of “your sons” in Luke 11:19 per the way I see the argumentation following Jesus casting out the mute demon Luke 11:14.
Luke 11:19 (My translation with some elaboration) “and if [and let’s assume that it’s true for the sake of argument] I, by Beelzebul, am casting out the demons, [then] your sons, by whom are they casting out [the demons]? Therefore/For this reason, they (your sons) will be your judges.
Since these open discussions become hard to follow, I’m just going to lay out my current conclusion re: the identity of “your sons” in Luke 11:19 per the way I see the argumentation following Jesus casting out the mute demon Luke 11:14.
- I currently agree with the work of A. T. Roberston in his book, A Harmony of the Gospels… re: this event in Luke 11 not being the same event as recorded in Matthew 12 and Mark 3.
- Much of this is rhetorical argumentation using Greek first-class conditional clauses meaning the “if” means; “if [and let’s assume it’s true for the sake of argument].”
- Jesus is showing the false allegations being made against Him have no basis in proper knowledge or reasoning.
- When Jesus establishes that “Every kingdom dividing against itself is being destroyed/ depopulated…”:
- He is establishing that NO lasting kingdom divides against itself.
- So, Satan is not dividing against himself.
- So, Satan is not casting out the demons.
- So, Jesus is not casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
- So, their allegation against Jesus is false.
- Case closed.
- So, neither are “your sons” casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
- No one is casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons, because Satan is not dividing = destroying his kingdom.
- If you falsely accuse Jesus, then you also falsely accuse your sons.
- They will judge you.
- Case closed.
- So, Jesus is not casting out the demons by the ruler of the demons.
- So, Satan is not casting out the demons.
- So, Satan is not dividing against himself.
- He is establishing that NO lasting kingdom divides against itself.
- I don’t see any case to be made that Satan is casting out the demons. Not by Jesus' rhetorical argument nor due to the following:
- In Acts 19:13... Traveling Jewish exorcists were “attempting/trying by their own hand to name the name of the Lord Jesus against people who had evil spirits. They were saying, I command/adjure you by (under oath to) Jesus whom Paul proclaims.
- This speaks of men attempting by their own effort to name the Lord Jesus as if they were under oath to Jesus.
- There is nothing in the NC that says anyone can swear an oath to Jesus and attempt by their own means to name His name and command evil spirits in people.
- These are clearly traveling Jewish charlatans likely doing this for profit for a living.
- Some sons of a Jewish chief priest attempted to copy this activity and the man in whom the evil spirit was existing basically said, ‘who do you think you are’ and jumped on them, overpowered (mastered) them, and sent them naked and wounded fleeing from the house.
- I’d bet their Jewish chief priest father also had something say to them for this supposed oath to Jesus.
- In Mark 9:38-40 Jesus’ disciples had seen a man casting out demons in Jesus’ name and since this man was not following Jesus’ disciples (maybe they were alleging the man was not following Jesus or His disciples), they tried to forbid him from doing so.
- This is different language than used in Acts 19. There is no mention of a claim made to being under oath to Jesus.
- This man was miraculously casting out demons in Jesus’ name.
- Jesus commanded His disciples to not forbid/hinder the man and then instructed that no one who will be doing miracles based upon Jesus’ name will soon be able to speak evil of Jesus, and he who is not against us, is for us.
- This casting out of demons in Jesus’ name is said to be a miracle and Jesus does not forbid it.
- We’re not told if this man is a believer or not. The point is he is doing a miracle in Jesus’ name – actually casting out a demon in Jesus’ name – and won’t soon be speaking evil of Jesus.
- It was pointed out in the other thread that in Matthew 9:32-34 Jesus’ casting out of a demon resulted in the crowds’ amazement, saying, “never did such appear in Israel.”
- This was a good observation. It tells us that this casting out of demons prior to Jesus was not seen in Israel – at least by those who said this.
- When it says the Pharisees said Jesus by the ruler of the demons is casting out the demons, I note that this is not clearly saying the Pharisees are there. To draw out the verb tense it probably should be translated as the NAS Bible translates it, ‘the Pharisees were saying… and could well be pointing out what had begun earlier.
- In Acts 19:13... Traveling Jewish exorcists were “attempting/trying by their own hand to name the name of the Lord Jesus against people who had evil spirits. They were saying, I command/adjure you by (under oath to) Jesus whom Paul proclaims.
- There seems to be no reason to think false exorcisms are taking place in Israel.
- It’s clear that Jesus is saying the Kingdom of God arrived.
- The crowds were amazed at Jesus casting out demons and say they had never seen such a thing.
- Traveling charlatans had some oath formula they apparently came up with and we are not told it worked for them. When the sons of the Jewish chief priest tried to copy this process, the demon possessed man beat them up and humiliated them.
- The man not following Jesus’ disciples was seen by them doing miracles in Jesus’ name and Jesus commanded he be left alone because miracles (not magic) being done in Jesus’ name is indicative of support (miracles by the Spirit?) for what Jesus and His disciples were doing and couldn’t readily be used against Jesus or His disciples.
- So, I see no reason to make the assumption that Jesus is suggesting in Luke 11:19 that “your sons” in Luke 11 is to be seen as Jesus saying anyone is doing fake exorcisms.
- I rather see Jesus as saying in the context of all of this, what goes along with His rhetorical argument:
- Satan does not divide his kingdom – his household.
- What the crowds are seeing is the Kingdom of God being here.
- No one is doing any fake exorcism – not Jesus or your (the crowds') sons.
- “your sons” can be Jesus’ disciples (the 12-70 seen earlier in Luke 9:1 and 12:17 who were dealing with demons) and/or men not following Jesus’ disciples but doing miracles (not magic or any trickery) in Jesus name (Mark 9:38-40).
- They are sons of those in the crowd – sons of Israel. Those not accusing Jesus of being satanic but following Jesus and/or doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
- Such will judge those who accuse Jesus of being satanic. To judge Jesus is also to judge them. They will stand in witnesses against unbelief and denigration of the Spirt.
- Jesus referring to them as “your sons” is rhetorical in that he is shifting the focus to the others – likely many - among the sons of Israel who are casting out demons whether they be Jesus’ Disciples, or men doing miracles in His name who Jesus sees as being for Him and His disciples and not against them. Men who will not or cannot quickly disavow Jesus when they are doing miracles in Jesus’ name.
- In this regard, Jesus is accomplishing much in one rhetorical statement attached to His rhetorical argumentation that their accusation is absurd. And the logic in Jesus’ rhetorical argument cannot be defeated without changing it.
