Mega Church or No Name Church

[Chester]

My fellowship is dropping their branding from signage to present themselves to the public as nondenominational. This seems to be the trend among both pentecostal and nonpentecostal denominations that want to appeal to a new generation who are looking for authenticity over tradition. In other words, they are not withdrawing from their denomination, they are just not making it obvious to anyone that they are part of a denomination. You have to ask around and even then you may find that many of the members think that the church and the pastor is nondenominational. That is how rare it is to hear it mentioned from the pastor or staff.

That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . . .

 

[Nehemiah6]

If a church decides to just believe what Scripture says and go with that, that is their prerogative.

Claiming to "believe what Scripture says" is also applicable to cults. So it simply will not do to say "We are believing what Scripture says". They all make the same claim.

 

[Chester]

Claiming to "believe what Scripture says" is also applicable to cults. So it simply will not do to say "We are believing what Scripture says". They all make the same claim.

Oh, I agree cults say the same thing - "we just believe what Scripture says" - but that does not negate the fact that simply following what the Bible says is what is needed.

And of course it is fair and needed to ask what a person believes - and I say what you need to do is look how the individuals in the group actually live (what they do and not just what they say!).

But just handing a person a "doctrinal statement" does not mean that the church actually believes and practices what they say they believe.

 

[Scribe]

That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . . .

I don't know what that means. If your going to say something, then say something.

 

[Chester]

I don't know what that means. If your going to say something, then say something.

Ah, the difficulty of trying to communicate online!

From your posts here I see you as someone who feels statements of faith, paid pastors, and established church systems are good. So when you gave your background and what your denomination is dealing with, this all made sense to me as to why you feel this way.

Hence I wrote: "That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . "

I tend to applaud and support small anti-establishment churches because of my past with abusive large traditional churches.

 

[Scribe]

That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . . .

Allow me to make myself clear. My fellowship was formed a hundred years ago with a determination to not be a denomination but rather a group of autonomous, cooperative VOLUNTARY churches pooling their resources together to fulfill the Great Commission in the light of the soon coming return of Jesus Christ with a message of the Full Gospel of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and all that, that includes for the purpose of fulfilling the Great Commission. We have never liked the idea of denominations. It has always been common to go to an AOG church and not know it was an AOG church because AOG is not mentioned. Why should it be? It is just a name for tax purposes it is nothing in and of itself. There is only one church. So even though it is nothing new to not see the AOG branding in an typical AOG church it is a relatively new thing to see Baptist, Methodist, Christian Churches removing their symbols and signage. And I think that the reason is that they understand that unlike their grandparents most people are not wanting to be associated with these denominational names, they just want to learn the Bible and follow Jesus. Which is what these denominations want as well so it is not a bad thing for them to drop the branding and stick to the business at hand, namely making disciples of Jesus Christ not their denominational names.

 

[Scribe]

Ah, the difficulty of trying to communicate online!

From your posts here I see you as someone who feels statements of faith, paid pastors, and established church systems are good. So when you gave your background and what your denomination is dealing with, this all made sense to me as to why you feel this way.

Hence I wrote: "That helps make sense out of why you say what you do here . "

I tend to applaud and support small anti-establishment churches because of my past with abusive large traditional churches.

Thank you for clarifying. I believe in big churches. As a matter of fact I am 100% fully persuaded that if a man who is called by God to preach and pastor will get on his face before God and seek the Lord until he has heard from God, and who will study the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit and of course sound hermeneutics and get in the pulpit and preach like a man preaching his last message before Jesus Comes, delivering the Word of God he receives from the Spirit and exegetes the scriptures so that people can have their souls illuminated with the Word of God and the message that the Holy Spirit intended being the emphasized message, and if he does it EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit, that man will not be able to contain the masses of hungry souls that will flock to his church to watch him burn with the fire and glory of Christ. I am not talking about personality, and what I just described was not personality.

I believe that God still calls men to give themselves wholly to this cause and to separate themselves from secular careers to accomplish a more eternal purpose. I believe they should be taken care of by the churches they minister to, and God will take care of them, of that I have no doubt. I believe that if they live on a modest income and after 30 years of saving and investing (just like anyone who works at Walmart or Mcdonalds can also do) if they save and invest they can accomplish a comfortable amount of wealth and no stupid person should judge them for what car or house they live in and falsely accuse them of fleecing the flock. That nonsense needs to stop. Don't be that guy. I am grieved by the amount of judging by outward appearance I hear from christians toward ministers. They will have to answer for it one day and it is a shame that those who say we should not judge others are usually misapplying it while they are the ones the most guilty of it. Did you know that if you work at Walmart as a checker and save 15% of every paycheck in a mutual fund after 30 years you will have 2 million in savings and can retire on 200K a year for the rest of your life by living off a modest 10% interest which is a conservative estimate (probably will be more like 13%-18%. And yet if a pastor does that people want to judge him as living highlife off the tithes of the church. They are ignorant fools and will be judged for their loose lips and stupid statements. OK I am off my soapbox now.

 

[Chester]

Thank you for clarifying. I believe in big churches. As a matter of fact I am 100% fully persuaded that if a man who is called by God to preach and pastor will get on his face before God and seek the Lord until he has heard from God, and who will study the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit and of course sound hermeneutics and get in the pulpit and preach like a man preaching his last message before Jesus Comes, delivering the Word of God he receives from the Spirit and exegetes the scriptures so that people can have their souls illuminated with the Word of God and the message that the Holy Spirit intended being the emphasized message, and if he does it EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit, that man will not be able to contain the masses of hungry souls that will flock to his church to watch him burn with the fire and glory of Christ. I am not talking about personality, and what I just described was not personality.

I believe that God still calls men to give themselves wholly to this cause and to separate themselves from secular careers to accomplish a more eternal purpose. I believe they should be taken care of by the churches they minister to, and God will take care of them, of that I have no doubt. I believe that if they live on a modest income and after 30 years of saving and investing (just like anyone who works at Walmart or Mcdonalds can also do) if they save and invest they can accomplish a comfortable amount of wealth and no stupid person should judge them for what car or house they live in and falsely accuse them of fleecing the flock. That nonsense needs to stop. Don't be that guy. I am grieved by the amount of judging by outward appearance I hear from christians toward ministers. They will have to answer for it one day and it is a shame that those who say we should not judge others are usually misapplying it while they are the ones the most guilty of it. Did you know that if you work at Walmart as a checker and save 15% of every paycheck in a mutual fund after 30 years you will have 2 million in savings and can retire on 200K a year for the rest of your life by living off a modest 10% interest which is a conservative estimate (probably will be more like 13%-18%. And yet if a pastor does that people want to judge him as living highlife off the tithes of the church. They are ignorant fools and will be judged for their loose lips and stupid statements. OK I am off my soapbox now.

LOL! Excellent speech! I don't agree with all of it, but you are being clear!

If I had time I would stand on the soapbox and give my spiel!

 

[Relic]

Interesting: thanks for sharing -- It sounds to me like you have been hurt by denominationalism and by big money grabbing preachers. I am sad about that -- but I can't rectify the problem.

I am happy that you have found a small group that loves one another and can fellowship and share together. Fellowship and brotherhood is at the heart of the Biblical idea of church.

So whether you are part of any denomination or not is not the point. You are a called out group and hence you are an ekklesia, a church, even if you do not use the term.

You do not have to formally ordain ministers, but I am sure that within your group there are and will be those who have different giftings of the Spirit. There are different ways to recognize "ministers" -- I don't know enough about your group to know, but you do need and probably already have Biblical leadership. Just because the Biblical concept of leaders and deacons is abused does not mean it is not edifying and upbuilding for the church.

 

[Scribe]

My fellowship is dropping their branding from signage to present themselves to the public as nondenominational. This seems to be the trend among both pentecostal and nonpentecostal denominations that want to appeal to a new generation who are looking for authenticity over tradition. In other words, they are not withdrawing from their denomination, they are just not making it obvious to anyone that they are part of a denomination. You have to ask around and even then you may find that many of the members think that the church and the pastor is nondenominational. That is how rare it is to hear it mentioned from the pastor or staff.

It is God's plan that they who preach the Gospel should get there living from that.
That does not mean that they are not allowed to work if it brings glory to God such as Paul working at times so that some of the more carnal of the lot would not be able to accuse him of wanting them for their money.

New American Standard Bible
So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

New King James Version
Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

King James Bible
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Christian Standard Bible
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.

 

[Scribe]

Scribe, you had an informative and well-written post there and I agree with a lot of what you write. So my comments here are not so much disagreeing with you as just replying to the above two paragraphs with a different perspective.

(1) I agree that the calling of a minister is Biblical - but the comment that elders should not spend much of their time doing secular work or the church will not be healthy? I do not agree -- Yes, we must be careful, but time, place, and culture, are all important considerations. I think the issue is that the local church must decide what approach to leadership and salary will bring the most benefit and glory to God's kingdom.

(2) A church is not required to have a nonprofit name and status. A church may do so if it benefits and brings glory to God. But you are right that the church with a nonprofit status and name and one that has a full-time paid pastor is not any less 1'st century than another house church group with nonpaid minister.

Some of the things that the scriptures make clear concerning the call of God for ministers:
14Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

give thyself wholly to them; He means full time. Because he also says.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. 6The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. 7Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Now consider what he says and see if the Lord does not give you the same understanding... Partaker of the fruits means get paid by preaching the Gospel, and not entangling with the affairs of this life, means not trying to have a business to support you because you do not think God will come through.

A minister who is entangled with other secular responsibilities will NOT be able to accomplish the same level of intensity that is so sorely needed in the churches today. It is a shame that those who are in full time ministry have allowed themselves to be distracted by too much business and are still not devoting the time they should to the Word of God and prayer that they are called to.

 

[dcontroversal]

Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst.

Jesus was clear and men over complicate many things!

 

[Mii]

Did you know that if you work at Walmart as a checker and save 15% of every paycheck in a mutual fund after 30 years you will have 2 million in savings and can retire on 200K a year for the rest of your life by living off a modest 10% interest which is a conservative estimate (probably will be more like 13%-18%. And yet if a pastor does that people want to judge him as living highlife off the tithes of the church. They are ignorant fools and will be judged for their loose lips and stupid statements. OK I am off my soapbox now.

Well appreciate your post about AG churches. It's funny because I actually thought the church I went to during my childhood/youth was non-denominational but it was actually CoG (church of God). There are pretty minor differences but I usually felt quite at home in AG churches that I visited. You'd have to look REALLY close to see the differences in practical church life (not on paper) but yeah I'm on the fence in general about larger churches. It's a sore topic for me and I'm not exactly sure why my hurt is originating from the source it is, but there are always improvements that can be made in these churches and maximizing the resources that they have. Long topic/rant so I won't get into it as I know there's something I'm missing and it would be wise to hold my peace until then.

 

[Corban]

There are several instances in your post where you have made doctrine from narrative. That's a bad idea, because it leads to conflicting interpretations that cannot be "proven" one against the other. It's better to take narrative simply as, "what did happen" rather than as "what should happen". Didactic passages should be used for doctrine, and narrative for illustration. Otherwise you get people arguing that preachers should only stand in boats and on mountainsides, or in third-floor rooms with open windows if they are going to preach all night.

Case in point: "the church at...". There is no direct teaching anywhere in Scripture declaring that a city should have only one assembly. You have made the structure of the local church a doctrinal issue, but it is not presented as such in Scripture. There is nothing inherently unbiblical about having several small fellowships in a city, each independent from the others. The key is in having each recognize that they are part of the Church, and that cooperation among them to bring the gospel to the city is worthwhile.

I may not judge your motive, but you have, for whatever reason, presented an untruth. Here are my statements. As you will see, i have already agreed to what you accost me for.

• There should be one Church per locality. The Bible only recognizes "The Church at .... ."
  [*]There can be multiple meetings in one city, but one Eldership

 

[Dino246]

I may not judge your motive, but you have, for whatever reason, presented an untruth. Here are my statements. As you will see, i have already agreed to what you accost me for.

"Untruth"? "Accost"? Really? Take your rhetoric down a notch... or three.

Regarding multiple fellowships, you seem to have overlooked the rest of my statement: "each independent from the others".

 

[Ruby123]

You can feel lost in a big church. I would love to find a GOOD small church.

 

[Corban]

"Untruth"? "Accost"? Really? Take your rhetoric down a notch... or three.

Regarding multiple fellowships, you seem to have overlooked the rest of my statement: "each independent from the others".

I stand by my statement. In normal English, multiple meetings in one city presuppose independence. How can you have multiple meetings dependent on one another? Are the multiple cars parked along the sidewalk dependent on one another?

You accost me for no reason. The meaning is clear, especially in the context of the bulleted list. This you should explain. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Dino246]

I stand by my statement. In normal English, multiple meetings in one city presuppose independence. How can you have multiple meetings dependent on one another? Are the multiple cars parked along the sidewalk dependent on one another?

You accost me for no reason. The meaning is clear, especially in the context of the bulleted list. This you should explain. But I won't hold my breath.

Wow... that's a massive chip on your shoulder. You need to remove it... and grow a thicker skin.

 

[Corban]

Wow... that's a massive chip on your shoulder. You need to remove it... and grow a thicker skin.

The best tactic of the guilty. Change the subject. Well did I say that I wold not hold my breath. You accuse a brother of something, and when it is pointed out you accuse him further with something else. My .... "CHRISTIAN chat"!

 

[Dino246]

The best tactic of the guilty. Change the subject. Well did I say that I wold not hold my breath. You accuse a brother of something, and when it is pointed out you accuse him further with something else. My .... "CHRISTIAN chat"!

If you actually want to discuss the topic, drop the excessive rhetoric. If you want to continue venting your self-righteous spleen, I have better things to do.