More about Israel.

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OMC said:
Haha good heavens no. I am doing nothing more than what the Lord had done. I ask questions based on your understanding and ask if it can be backed by scripture. I have no " framework" that I advise for scripture understanding. Scripture speaks well enough on its own without help of a man-made system.
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Okay thanks, I have not read all your posts so I was not sure.
 
Churchgoer said:
Good question again brother. Again ot is the shadow.
Note only calab and Joshua from that generation entered promises land . Why?
Throughout entire OT, only the faithful ones stayed in faith in YHVH. Why?
Only Daniel and 3 young men didn't bow to statue, why?
Elijah rebuked the follower of baal, why?
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Faith has always been the issue. Caleb and Joshua entered because they trusted God. Elijah stood against Baal because most of Israel had wandered. Daniel and his friends stayed faithful when others compromised.

I guess the question I'm wrestling with is this: do those examples show that Israel wasn't God's covenant people, or that being part of the covenant people never guaranteed faith? To me, the remnant seems to exist within Israel, not instead of Israel. That's why Paul says, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

It seems like we're agreeing on the main point: God has always been looking for faith, not just physical descent. The question is how that truth fits with the promises God made and how the New Testament says they're fulfilled in Christ.
Churchgoer said:
Again, ot is shadow. Jesus in nt is the clearer deal, real deal.
Nt and ot in sync, never contradicting.
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So when we come to the promises to Abraham, are we saying Christ fulfills them, or that He replaces them with something entirely different?
That's the question I keep coming back to.
Like you said, OT and NT are in harmony, so whatever answer we arrive at should allow both to speak without forcing either one into silence.
 
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HeIsHere said:
Okay thanks, I have not read all your posts so I was not sure.
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OMC has taken a backseat to a personal view. He won't share it any more after He realized he was wrong and now understands the truth based on the way the Bible was written, he just won't admit it. So, now, you can only expect him to keep asking you questions hoping that you will someday see the light too.

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OMC said:
Faith has always been the issue. Caleb and Joshua entered because they trusted God. Elijah stood against Baal because most of Israel had wandered. Daniel and his friends stayed faithful when others compromised.

I guess the question I'm wrestling with is this: do those examples show that Israel wasn't God's covenant people, or that being part of the covenant people never guaranteed faith?
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We can loosely say God use them to point to the covenant people, the narrow gate....
God's divine plan.
Real Covenant, the cut in our heart, a new heart.
OMC said:
To me, the remnant seems to exist within Israel, not instead of Israel. That's why Paul says, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
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Agree. Many faithful ones, hallelujah!
OMC said:
It seems like we're agreeing on the main point: God has always been looking for faith, not just physical descent. The question is how that truth fits with the promises God made and how the New Testament says they're fulfilled in Christ.

So when we come to the promises to Abraham, are we saying Christ fulfills them, or that He replaces them with something entirely different?
That's the question I keep coming back to.
Like you said, OT and NT are in harmony, so whatever answer we arrive at should allow both to speak without forcing either one into silence.
Click to expand...
Blessings!!!
 
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OMC said:
Haha good heavens no. I am doing nothing more than what the Lord had done. I ask questions based on your understanding and ask if it can be backed by scripture. I have no " framework" that I advise for scripture understanding. Scripture speaks well enough on its own without help of a man-made system.
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Well I do not see wasting our time on it then.
 
ThomasMatthew said:
How do you do you not know that the Bible never says that?
Abraham Isaac and Jacob were not Jews.
Moses wasn't even a jew.

And I'm still waiting for someone to define what a Jew is.
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It's funny, (not actually) that Hitler seemed to know who was a Jew and who wasn't. Now you're saying there is no such race? No such people? Over 6 million lives could have been saved if Hitler only knew your beliefs. Pity.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
The Abrahamic Covenant was a land covenant promised to Abraham first and then passed on to Isaac and then onto Jacob. Jacob was renamed "Israel" and his sons make up the 12 tribes of Israel. That's why you see the 144,000 sealed tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 and why you don't see Ishmael being represented there instead. THEY are the ones in which God made His land covenant with.

God explicitly rejected Abraham’s request for Ishmael to inherit the Abrahamic Covenant by stating, "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac," thereby reserving the promise of the land and the spiritual lineage for the son of Sarah. When Abraham pleaded, "Oh that Ishmael might live before you!," God acknowledged the request and promised to make Ishmael a great nation with twelve princes, but He drew a sharp distinction by specifying that the everlasting covenant and the territorial inheritance (from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates) belonged solely to Isaac and his descendants.

So, while we, as the faithful, will inherit the rest of the earth after Jesus returns, only the seed of Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel will inherit the promised land as described in the Bible with its specific boundaries listed.

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To Revelation1v8,

Your response exposes the exact carnal hermeneutic that the Apostle Paul spent his entire ministry dismantling. You are attempting to split the inheritance of God into two tracks: physical real estate for ethnic Jacob, and "the rest of the earth" for the Church.

By binding the Abrahamic Covenant to physical geography and literal fleshly boundaries, you directly contradict how the Holy Spirit interprets the land promise in the New Testament.

Let us look at the airtight, apostolic architecture that shatters your physical-dirt theology:

1. The True Scope of the Land Promise (Romans 4:13)

You claim the covenant was strictly for a localized piece of land with "specific boundaries listed." But look at how the Apostle Paul defines the actual scope of the promise made to Abraham and his seed:

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Romans 4:13)

Notice the word the Holy Spirit uses: the world (kosmos).

  • God did not promise Abraham a tiny, localized strip of real estate from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates as an ultimate reality.
  • That localized land was a temporal type and shadow of a far greater, universal reality: the entire renovated creation!
  • Abraham’s true inheritance is the cosmic kosmos. And who inherits this world? Those who possess the "righteousness of faith"—the New Testament Church, consisting of elect Jews and Gentiles combined (Galatians 3:29).
2. The Patriarchs Rejected Your Earthly Interpretation (Hebrews 11:13-16)

You argue that the physical seed of Jacob must inherit that specific, earthly geography. But what did Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually look for? Did they die wringing their hands over Middle Eastern dirt?

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:13, 16)

According to Hebrews 11:10, Abraham looked for a city “whose builder and maker is God.” The Patriarchs explicitly looked past the temporal, earthly land of Canaan because they recognized it was merely an instructional shadow. They desired a heavenly country—the New Heavens and the New Earth. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't prioritize the literal dirt as their ultimate fulfillment, why are you demanding it for them?

3. The 144,000 and the Spiritual Zion (Revelation 7 & 14)

You point to the 144,000 from the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 to prove ethnic division. But you fail to read how the book of Revelation interprets its own symbols.

  • In Revelation 7:4, they are sealed on earth.
  • In Revelation 14:1-4, we see their actual identity and location: They stand on the spiritual Mount Zion with the Lamb.
  • Are they a literal political army occupying a physical plot of dirt? No. Verse 4 defines them: “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
The 144,000 is a perfect covenantal number (12 x 12 x 1,000) representing the total, complete, and unalterable sum of God's elect church throughout all ages. They are the "firstfruits". They have the Father's name on their foreheads. This is the exact, identical description of the New Testament Church, which has been brought to the true “mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22).

Conclusion: One Seed, One Joint-Inheritance

Your system creates an unbiblical segregation in the family of God, where Christ has two brides, two peoples, and two separate inheritances.

But the New Testament logic is an unyielding unit:

  • Christ is the singular Seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16).
  • Christ is the ultimate Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
  • The Church is vitally ingrafted into Christ, making us "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17).
There is no "separate plot of dirt" reserved for a fleshly lineage. Physical borders, ethnic lines, and localized real estate have been completely swallowed up by the Glorification Phase of salvation. The land of Canaan was a shadow; the new creation is the reality. If you belong to Christ, you are the true Israel, and the entire universe is your promised estate!
 
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brightfame52 said:
To Revelation1v8,

Your response exposes the exact carnal hermeneutic that the Apostle Paul spent his entire ministry dismantling. You are attempting to split the inheritance of God into two tracks: physical real estate for ethnic Jacob, and "the rest of the earth" for the Church.

By binding the Abrahamic Covenant to physical geography and literal fleshly boundaries, you directly contradict how the Holy Spirit interprets the land promise in the New Testament.

Let us look at the airtight, apostolic architecture that shatters your physical-dirt theology:

1. The True Scope of the Land Promise (Romans 4:13)

You claim the covenant was strictly for a localized piece of land with "specific boundaries listed." But look at how the Apostle Paul defines the actual scope of the promise made to Abraham and his seed:

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Romans 4:13)

Notice the word the Holy Spirit uses: the world (kosmos).

  • God did not promise Abraham a tiny, localized strip of real estate from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates as an ultimate reality.
  • That localized land was a temporal type and shadow of a far greater, universal reality: the entire renovated creation!
  • Abraham’s true inheritance is the cosmic kosmos. And who inherits this world? Those who possess the "righteousness of faith"—the New Testament Church, consisting of elect Jews and Gentiles combined (Galatians 3:29).
2. The Patriarchs Rejected Your Earthly Interpretation (Hebrews 11:13-16)

You argue that the physical seed of Jacob must inherit that specific, earthly geography. But what did Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually look for? Did they die wringing their hands over Middle Eastern dirt?

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:13, 16)

According to Hebrews 11:10, Abraham looked for a city “whose builder and maker is God.” The Patriarchs explicitly looked past the temporal, earthly land of Canaan because they recognized it was merely an instructional shadow. They desired a heavenly country—the New Heavens and the New Earth. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't prioritize the literal dirt as their ultimate fulfillment, why are you demanding it for them?

3. The 144,000 and the Spiritual Zion (Revelation 7 & 14)

You point to the 144,000 from the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 to prove ethnic division. But you fail to read how the book of Revelation interprets its own symbols.

  • In Revelation 7:4, they are sealed on earth.
  • In Revelation 14:1-4, we see their actual identity and location: They stand on the spiritual Mount Zion with the Lamb.
  • Are they a literal political army occupying a physical plot of dirt? No. Verse 4 defines them: “These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
The 144,000 is a perfect covenantal number (12 x 12 x 1,000) representing the total, complete, and unalterable sum of God's elect church throughout all ages. They are the "firstfruits". They have the Father's name on their foreheads. This is the exact, identical description of the New Testament Church, which has been brought to the true “mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Hebrews 12:22).

Conclusion: One Seed, One Joint-Inheritance

Your system creates an unbiblical segregation in the family of God, where Christ has two brides, two peoples, and two separate inheritances.

But the New Testament logic is an unyielding unit:

  • Christ is the singular Seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16).
  • Christ is the ultimate Heir of all things (Hebrews 1:2).
  • The Church is vitally ingrafted into Christ, making us "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17).
There is no "separate plot of dirt" reserved for a fleshly lineage. Physical borders, ethnic lines, and localized real estate have been completely swallowed up by the Glorification Phase of salvation. The land of Canaan was a shadow; the new creation is the reality. If you belong to Christ, you are the true Israel, and the entire universe is your promised estate!
Click to expand...

You were misled. Jesus himself told you that He was going to fulfill all of the prophecies in the Old Testament, and He didn't mean just spiritually either. No, He will fulfill them spiritually, physically and literally. You just have to read your Old Testament to know what's in it. That's the problem, unfortunately, with Christians today. They think they only have to read the New Testament to know what God/Jesus had to say, but Jesus told you to be looking at the Old Testament too in....

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.


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brightfame52 said:
You argue that the physical seed of Jacob must inherit that specific, earthly geography. But what did Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob actually look for? Did they die wringing their hands over Middle Eastern dirt?

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off... and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth... But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” (Hebrews 11:13, 16)

According to Hebrews 11:10, Abraham looked for a city “whose builder and maker is God.” The Patriarchs explicitly looked past the temporal, earthly land of Canaan because they recognized it was merely an instructional shadow. They desired a heavenly country—the New Heavens and the New Earth. If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't prioritize the literal dirt as their ultimate fulfillment, why are you demanding it for them?
Click to expand...

After the Millennial Kingdom on earth is over from Revelation 20, THEN the Kingdom of Heaven does comes down. Read Revelation 20 & 21 again. Like the Bible says, "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." There's no escaping it regardless of how hard you try.

We've gone over this 1,000 times like the rest of the group who chooses to like your posts, but like you, they refuse to listen to the Word of God because you/they haven't studied the Old Testament to know what it says.

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