I'm still not following how the conclusion is reached that the sons of God were definitely angels... please take a small step with me here... does the passage have the word Angel in it?
Mormons / Latter Day Saints
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hmmm... in job 1, Satan chats with God and has access to earth and people... Satan could not come to earth pre battle?
"He has determined to create spirit first and then mortal body second." well, to my mind, this is what we're checking to see if the bible teaches...
Posted by just-me
Copied from site LDS Mormon Science Doctrines
God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints.
That's really wild.I still like Mormon people though.
Again, you are using anti-Mormon material to teach about what the Mormons believe. Not wise.
I will give you an example: From the anti-Mormon website you furnished above it says: God's home planet orbits a star named Kolob. Then it sites as a reference Abraham 3:3. So I went to Abraham 3:3 and this is what it says:
Abraham 3:3
And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
Now tell me where the word "orbit" is? Tell me where the phrase "God's home planet" is? Well one word the site got right is "Kolob", but where is the word "star"?
Every word in the website used to teach us about Abraham 3:3 except for "Kolob" is a made up anti-Mormon slur.
What we learn from Abraham 3:3 is that Kolob is a giant planet and God uses this planet and other giants that are near Kolob to govern the movement of all the planets in the universe after the order of planets such as the earth (as that upon which thou standeth). We also learn that Kolob is near unto God. God governs the universe and he has created giant planets to help him govern the movement of other planets, (like God created and uses gravity to help govern the universe). It only makes sense that he would want to be close to the great ones and keep his finger on the pulse.
So if you use anti-Mormon literature to teach Mormonism you will never get the whole story, and you usually get a half-baked concoction that you can laugh at and say wow, thats wild isn't it.
There is really something that you can learn about Kolob that is very interesting and in the process you can learn more about God. Try it.
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We know that the Giants were not God's original creation bearing seed after it's own kind. With that we can logically (without speculation) know that the sperm transfered into the daughters of men, via sexual intercourse, were not the seed of man as created in the case of Adam and Eve. We also know that angels can take human form when reading about the angels escorting Lot and his family out of Sodom.
Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal writings are unanimous in holding to the view that fallen angels are the “sons of God” mentioned in Genesis 6:1-4. This by no means closes the debate. However, the view that Genesis 6:1-4 involves fallen angels mating with human females has a strong contextual, grammatical, and historical basis. There is no mention of angels in the Bible until Genesis 16:7 The original Hebrew passage describes "sons" as "ben" as in Yeshua ben David=Jesus the son of David. (Matthew 1:1) There are 2 Hebrew letters in "ben." The first is Beyt meaning family, and the second is a final "Nun" related to a fish or snake unlike the 14th letter of the Hebrew alphabet "nun" meaning seed. This word is used for son in many cases in the Bible. It gets deep but I will end for now.
Copied from site LDS Mormon Science Doctrines
God did not create the physical Earth Himself. Actually, all of us helped out. Under the direction of Jesus and Adam, we created the Earth. Some of us created trees, others created rocks and still others created animals, based on God's blueprints.
That's really wild.
I didn't say that the sight was right. I said it was wild. Jesus is the creator of all things according to Colossians chapter 1. I didn't copy anything from the sight that mentioned orbit, stars or even Kolob. Nevertheless I see in the book of Enoch likened unto your description of Abraham and his understanding of the solar system. I like the explanation of both Enoch's and Abraham's faith in Hebrews 11.
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The phrase "sons of God" appears in five verses from only two books of the Old Testament. Two in Genesis 6 and the other three verses are found in the book of Job. There is no date or author recorded for Job so whoever gave the information had to be privy to the conversation between God and satan. Job indicates that "sons of God" are angelic beings, since they enter directly into God's presence or existed before the creation of the earth. I mention one verse in Job indicating there was of sorts an army of an adversarial nature presenting themselves before God. Now if we think that satan is a "spirit child" in relation to what we used to be, I have nothing else to offer except take all the circumstantial evidence I have given, add it up, and see what makes sense to you as a jury member would do in a court room setting. There is no solid proof of us existing before conception, and there is no proof given saying we didn't with the exception of the evidence provided.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
The clincher is whether we believe satan is a spiritual force of evil that has yet been born as a baby or can he take human form without being conceived as Christ was. As we know the Bible says Christ was the first born among many indicating it not to be a twofold thing relating only to salvation. In reading scripture Jesus did present Himself to Abraham as Melchizedek, and afterwards was accompanied by two angels who went to rescue Lot without Jesus.
I think there are better things to concentrate in for edification as God would have us to do. If it can be proven one way or the other in specitivity I would like to see it, but the circumstantial evidence clearly leans toward the beginning of our life was at natural conception.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written , The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
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Obviously the answer is no.
Mark 4:30-32
30 And he said , Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown , it groweth up , and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
It works best to begin small and add to what we know as fact.
so, it doesn't actually say they are angels, it's based on Earlier Hebrew interpreters and apocryphal writings... it's certainly a possible interpretation, it's just that it's not a required one, I think... why is that important? Daniel has possible interpretations of some bible passages... I don't believe they are always required... in the interest of fairness, I want to play by the same rules that I ask of Daniel, and all of us...
well, I have lots of thoughts about your post, but I think at this time I'll stick with the small steps... for the question Does the passage have the word Angel in it? it does not... so, the next small step... does the passage say the sons of God are angels? it cannot, because Angels does not appear... it may say something similar, but since I want to be as accurate as possible, say with the One blood in acts 17 and the physical body, I want to notice things carefully...
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definitely! and, I want to be careful to notice how the joints fit together as we build the teaching... as I'm sure we all do!
I just take the posts as they come, and try to answer them in order... great chatting with you, BTW!
so, is 1cor15:46 stating a general principle, or comparing the first Adam with the last Adam? from the context, to me, it seems to be talking about Adam and Jesus...
We all have been given the right to choose what we want to believe, and are also required by God to confirm the truth. In relation to your (and mine) explanations given, Joseph Smith's interpretations are also just as questionable concerning what we have been discussing using the KJV, or for that matter any Bible translation. It is obvious to me that the Book of Mormon cannot confirm anything that is not already written in Bible translations when we discern via the Holy Spirit of God.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1 Corinthians 13:12 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly ; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
The only thing that has been proven in the past pages of conversation is that the existence of us being "spirit children" before we were born is very questionable and cannot be proven. If you ask me to prove that isn't so, then I can also ask you to prove via scripture that it is. So I ask myself, "What is the reason for ministering something that cannot be proven in scripture?" The answer is "there is no reason. On top of that, if it was true that I was a "spirit child" before I was born, how does it edify me now?" There are many and greater things in scripture that can be proven. It is best for God's children, through Christ Jesus, to edify each other with proven truth.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1 Corinthians 15:46 is stating the order in which the plan of salvation works, and why all things were created (from the beginning) in the proven chronological events that put it all together the way the Father and the Son intended. (quote) "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual."
This is proven by the fact that Jesus is the creator of all things.
Colossians 1:16-17
16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist .
Any deviation to this plan makes the plan dysfunctional.
"...Therefore glorify God in your body (and in your spirit) which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:20)
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my goal in talking with Daniel, and whoever else wants to join in, is to edify all concerned... I am convinced that if Daniel talks with me long enough, he will no longer be excited about trying to show that Mormon doctrines are taught by the bible... and I assume he thinks the same in the reverse direction... how much effort do we put into helping one sheep that has strayed? a whole lot!
also, I believe I have showed, proved even, that Paul at the areopagus, and the poet, are saying that we are physical, as well as spiritual, children of God...
We are His children through Christ Jesus. I don't dispute that in the context of these scriptures. Without His Spirit connected with our spirit we are none of His.
1 Corinthians 15:40-44
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Romans 8:15-16
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of *adoption, whereby we cry , Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
We are adopted into the famly of God through Christ Jesus after, and only after being born again as Nicodemus was informed by Jesus Christ.
The Spirit of *adoption says it all.
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