Oh my... getting straightforward on the thread. I ask is the thread "obedience to mean in order to get the righteousness of God? to be saved? or obedience because we already have the righteousness of God and we're saved?
Thanks
Thanks
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No, I see he's saying that some people think some of what Jesus is saying, that their excluded .. I see people twisting, spitting, and scratching all over the place. I'm happy you didn't bite at me here because of the misunderstanding. Jesus did say be perfect, follow Him... What was He.. Perfect. What did He tell that woman, go and sin no more. Though we are in a body of flesh/death, it's something that the Spirit wrestles with, daily. When we fall off course, (it happens) there will be consequences.I quote, "your purpose is to preach a Jesus-less gospel, definitely Not Christian doctrine." Those are his words in the post you quoted.
Tell me, do you know of any user who always preaches on grace that doesn't emphasize Jesus Christ? It is impossible to preach on the grace of God in accordance with the Gospel and not mention Jesus Christ. All the grace that is preached is summed up in Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and through His resurrection. This blanket statement about people preaching grace is reprehensible.
Yet... all I see is people applauding him and telling him to get ready to dodge stones (as if he is presenting truth and will receive persecution for it). A Jesus-less gospel? How about ignoring what Jesus did at the cross and not rightly dividing the word?
If people are not seeing the... blatant dishonesty maybe its best to call it out.
He prunes us, and sometimes it's hard to let go of old lifestyles, old " friends ", old music and habits ... but we have to let go and let God, being obedient will only help our walk with Christ. We shouldn't tell people, it's ok, go to the club, have sex with strangers, God loves you anyway. That's just bad perspective... Because if one leaves church with that feeling, that it's " ok " and they go get a std, whoever preached that message is at fault as well. He calls us to be holy.. It's a growing process though.. We shouldn't preach, just grace but a dose of obedience as well... because doing a crime will bring you to jail, we should turn away from sin.. Don't you agree?
K
keepitsimple
Guest
While I'm pleased to see you so easily humoured, enlighten me on what I was "basically lying about" ? You seek attention in any form ... and for some, negative attention is better than none at all. You have my sympathy ... and prayers.
While you are thinking about my post...Here is an example of the scriptures and forgiveness of sins before and after the cross.. Does the death of Jesus on the cross mean anything when we look at forgiveness?
Hyper grace teaches that grace is Jesus. In that way grace becomes GOD and emasculates Jesus as lord. Grace takes precedence over Jesus' words.
It's very similar to what Hebrew Roots hyper-law followers do when they say that all of GOD's words must be obeyed. They put Moses' words on the same level with Jesus' words, which in effect completely undermines Jesus' authority.
What about all these scriptures about the forgiveness of sins after the cross of Jesus?
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense expresses perfective action. Perfective action involves a present state which has resulted from a past action. The present state is a continuing state; the past action is a completed action. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
J
jasonj
Guest
no, I stumble while having my heart set fully on obeying Jesus. the thing I'm saying is look at his teachings. if we stumble, he teaches aboiut our forgiveness. you guys really have no idea what I'm saying huh..........the thing is with what I'm saying. the gog as tought so widely and by a few here, is opposed to Jesus gospel. its pretty plain what I'm saying. the difference is we are forgiven to follow Jesus into eternal life, by following Him. teaching others to obey HIS JESUS COMMANDS. the gog doesn't do that. it makes Jesus doctrine less. it absolutely does disagree with the gospel. that's my issue. when a person accepts Jesus, its not Just forgiveness but a full obligation to live as he teaches. that's my point and issue. there is no gospel without Jesus teachings, woithout doing what He says to do. the gog I am totally against how its taught. grace is not a gospel, its one thing Jesus brought, truth is the actual gospel. there is no free salvation, the free gift demands all we are. that's the difference. its not I'm forever saved let me live as I wish and always be saved. that's a lie. its I'm saved now I'm going to follow Jesus. that's the gospel. He saved me died for me, now I'm giving my life to Him, j=to live as he says to live. there is forgiveness taught, mercy, reward, blessing, curse.........god will fogive us all, but Christians, follow Jesus words. that's all there is.
Absolutely, grace is not a license to sin. Jason is preaching obedience against the grace of God. His own words condemn him, he said he is opposed to the grace of God (I.e; the Gospel of Grace). He disagrees with that understanding of the bible, and so be it. Yet, to do so is contrary to the Gospel. He emphasizes Jesus' words and teachings, yet denies what Jesus accomplished at the cross. People need to rightly divide the word of God or you end up like Jason with a doctrine of mixture that leads to bondage.
J
jasonj
Guest
forgive others and you have that forgiveness to walk in. there is a condition upon all of it. you know what Jesus did, now what does he say to do.focus isn't hes saving me, its I'm grateful and now imna serve the Lord because HE died to make it so. obedience is the result of GRACE. what we do matters greatly, we aren't just saved no matter what. what we do determines life or death. am I saying were perfect naw, said several times. Jesus teaches forgiveness to others because we have been forgiven, he also teaches if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. there is a condition upon Grace, that's the difference. The condition is our actions. that is the true Gospel that is taught by Jesus. were saved ahallelujah, NOW WHAT DO I DO IN RESPONSE will determine my salvation, free gift, will I honor its price? that's the difference
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
The issue is that jasonj has substituted the red letters of the bible for the reality of the Living Jesus Christ, and is arguing that everyone should do likewise.
Well if he's saying obedience will save him then yes, because our works are rags. Period. I don't think he's saying that though, I think he's just preaching be obedient, not that he's denying grace just not expounding on it. We all get grace through faith, and He knows our hearts and intent.. We can't fool Him, we only fool ourselves.
Are not the words of Paul - Jesus' words? Paul said they were. He said that by way of revelation the Lord instructed him about the mystery of the gospel which is Christ in you. The new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
Paul had more revelation of the gospel of the grace of Christ then any other disciple. The disciples didn't even believe that Jesus was going to die even though Jesus Himself told them 17x times. Even Peter said that Paul says some things that are hard to understand.
Paul even called it "his" gospel. I confidently stand with Paul in the gospel of the grace of Christ. it is His life only that we live by and we should be believing in all that Christ ahs already done for us!
Romans 16:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] [The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.]
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
Paul had more revelation of the gospel of the grace of Christ then any other disciple. The disciples didn't even believe that Jesus was going to die even though Jesus Himself told them 17x times. Even Peter said that Paul says some things that are hard to understand.
Paul even called it "his" gospel. I confidently stand with Paul in the gospel of the grace of Christ. it is His life only that we live by and we should be believing in all that Christ ahs already done for us!
Romans 16:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] [The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.]
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
J
jasonj
Guest
Nope ben, obedience in response to The grace of God. what Jesus teaches. grace is not unconditional AFTER we receive it, it then costs everything, but it is well worth it. again. we obey because of what God did by grace. if we go out and do not live as Jesus teaches....well, look into what he says about it. obedience because of grace, grace means accountability and the rewards are immeasurable. just gotta learn Jesus if u do want to know what I'm =saying.....obedience is a requirement of receiving Grace according to Jesus
J
jasonj
Guest
K
keepitsimple
Guest
Wherever did you learn that believers in the gospel of God's grace in Jesus Christ don't do the same ? That is troubling and sad. I know that I can't earn salvation ... even if I never stumble again in this life. It's all about Jesus and what He did for me... and nothing more. Always will be.
There it is. Lordship Salvation. You believe you must maintain your salvation. Finally, the truth has been revealed. I'm sorry if I showed any animosity towards you, or got passionate in this discussion in a negative light. However, after you've clarified your position its all become so clear.
I should have say this:
To the saved= obedience is not a hard thing. Paul says "I can do all thing through Christ which strengtheneth me"
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
To the unsaved = obedience makes it a hard thing. For he cannot even obey what the scriptures says. Scripture stated in Acts 16:31 that we need only to believe Christ to be saved, but the unsaved scorns about this and it's hard for them obey what the scriptures says that what is needed to be saved is to only believe the gospel only. So this makes harder to them. While it is good to do all Christ commandment, still it will be harder for them to do it all. For Christ says "...for without me ye can do nothing."
John15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.