New Covenant and Old Covenant

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Dino246 said:
When Paul wrote to the Galatians, he was addressing a specific problem: the Galatians had come to believe that they were to believe in Christ AND follow the Old Testament Law. He clearly explained that faith in Christ was separate from OT Law and freed us from its requirements. We are made righteous in God's sight not by following the OT Law but by faith.

Paul gave the church many instructions. If we take your approach, we conclude that Paul's "laws" are merely additions to Moses' Law. They aren't. The Law (as Paul used the term) was the OT law only... circumcision, temple offerings, feasts, etc.

In one sense, law is law, yes, but God didn't give the command "don't wear clothing made from two types of thread" to Christians; He gave it to Israelites, and Christians are not bound by it.

When we conflate all of the NT instructions with the OT law, we get a mishmash of confusing and incompatible requirements which lead to all manner of sects holding to this bit but not that bit. "Rightly dividing the Word" means (at least) understanding which parts are applicable to us as Christians... and which aren't.

The explanations that Jesus gave in the "sermon on the mount" show how the OT law is to be applied: not with rigorous following of the letter, but with the heart. The Holy Spirit within the believer guides and convicts us to love God and our neighbour... not by careful following of written commands, but with love.
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I still don't understand. Jesus' command to seek foremost the kingdom of GOD and his righteousness was just as much law as "You shall have no other gods before me". The problem as I see it is that Christians only see law as being the law of Moses. Christ was more than just the savior; he is also the lawgiver. But apparently many think that doesn't mean what it means.
 
I think the reason we have such differences in understanding relates to understanding our creator God.

God explained Himself and how He created the world to operate in the Torah and the church today has tried to eliminate the Torah. The Torah tells us of Christ and what Christ does for us through the rituals God gave us. We are told that Christ is fulfilling all that we were told of Him and it is explained to us just how that is.

Innocent animal blood was shed and there was no atonement without blood. Christ shed His blood for us and in Hebrews 7 we are told how much better the blood of Christ is. Today's church tells us that everything of the Torah is gone and destroyed. We are to accept the Lord who is eternal and does not destroy. God makes better.

We are told of the duties and work of the Levi priests. Again, like the blood shed for sins it was telling us of Christ and we are to know what they were responsible for and what they did. And again nothing was done away with. It was a shadow, a foretelling of Christ. Christ did not destroy this foretelling, Christ fulfilled it and made it better.

The law is told of in Psalm 119, and every word in that psalm is true today as it was when Adam was alive. There is no change. Forgiveness STILL requires blood.

We simply cannot just read the scripture telling us of the changes made and say that is the way it is, we don't have to know the Torah and what was the world's foundation was. We must know the foundation to understand the changes that Christ made. Otherwise we get a mishmash of ideas based on scripture telling us of the changes Christ made without the least idea of what it changed from.
 
Blik said:
I think the reason we have such differences in understanding relates to understanding our creator God.

God explained Himself and how He created the world to operate in the Torah and the church today has tried to eliminate the Torah. The Torah tells us of Christ and what Christ does for us through the rituals God gave us. We are told that Christ is fulfilling all that we were told of Him and it is explained to us just how that is.

Innocent animal blood was shed and there was no atonement without blood. Christ shed His blood for us and in Hebrews 7 we are told how much better the blood of Christ is. Today's church tells us that everything of the Torah is gone and destroyed. We are to accept the Lord who is eternal and does not destroy. God makes better.

We are told of the duties and work of the Levi priests. Again, like the blood shed for sins it was telling us of Christ and we are to know what they were responsible for and what they did. And again nothing was done away with. It was a shadow, a foretelling of Christ. Christ did not destroy this foretelling, Christ fulfilled it and made it better.

The law is told of in Psalm 119, and every word in that psalm is true today as it was when Adam was alive. There is no change. Forgiveness STILL requires blood.

We simply cannot just read the scripture telling us of the changes made and say that is the way it is, we don't have to know the Torah and what was the world's foundation was. We must know the foundation to understand the changes that Christ made. Otherwise we get a mishmash of ideas based on scripture telling us of the changes Christ made without the least idea of what it changed from.
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Most of the individual statements you made here are correct. However, your conclusion is still incorrect. Christians are not under the Mosaic law. If we were, we would still have to abide by every jot and tittle, "for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all".

We are righteous not by keeping the Law, but by faith in Christ. We remain righteous and grow in righteousness (our daily actions) not by keeping the Law but by faith in Christ. Paul made this clear to the Galatians. The Law adds nothing to faith in Christ. All the Law ever did was show us that we are sinners. That's all it can do. Why, having been made complete in Christ, would we again put ourselves under tutelage of an inadequate schoolmaster? That's ludicrous.

It is one thing to say, "Read the Torah to understand the context and the background", and quite another to say, "Read and follow the Torah, because that is what God intends for you".
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I still don't understand. Jesus' command to seek foremost the kingdom of GOD and his righteousness was just as much law as "You shall have no other gods before me". The problem as I see it is that Christians only see law as being the law of Moses. Christ was more than just the savior; he is also the lawgiver. But apparently many think that doesn't mean what it means.
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Once again, you're confusing the "Law" (the Torah) with instructions given by Jesus. The Torah was given to Israel, not to gentiles, and certainly not to Christians. God commanded that Israel slay all the inhabitants of Jericho. Are you fulfilling this law? No, because it wasn't given to you! Don't assume that every command given by God in Scripture is given to every follower of Jesus!
 
Dino246 said:
Once again, you're confusing the "Law" (the Torah) with instructions given by Jesus. The Torah was given to Israel, not to gentiles, and certainly not to Christians. God commanded that Israel slay all the inhabitants of Jericho. Are you fulfilling this law? No, because it wasn't given to you! Don't assume that every command given by God in Scripture is given to every follower of Jesus!
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instructions given by Jesus = law

instructions given by Jesus /= the law
 
What is the difference between the Laws/rules you give your employees and the Laws/rules you give your children?

What is the difference between a hired hand and a true shepherd?

Both old and new covenant have laws. Some very similar some radically different.

For example you are leaving for a vacation and hire someone to take care of your house, garden and pets. What kind of instructions would you leave them?

Would your instructions be different if you leave your house in the care of your kids?
 
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Dino246 said:
Most of the individual statements you made here are correct. However, your conclusion is still incorrect. Christians are not under the Mosaic law. If we were, we would still have to abide by every jot and tittle, "for whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all".

We are righteous not by keeping the Law, but by faith in Christ. We remain righteous and grow in righteousness (our daily actions) not by keeping the Law but by faith in Christ. Paul made this clear to the Galatians. The Law adds nothing to faith in Christ. All the Law ever did was show us that we are sinners. That's all it can do. Why, having been made complete in Christ, would we again put ourselves under tutelage of an inadequate schoolmaster? That's ludicrous.

It is one thing to say, "Read the Torah to understand the context and the background", and quite another to say, "Read and follow the Torah, because that is what God intends for you".
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It should read "under the law for forgiveness". If we were under the law we would have to obey it perfectly, it is true. We go to Christ for forgiveness, not to our perfect obedience. We are under Christ.

It has nothing to do with, again, destruction of what the Lord tells us. We are told the law is true for all generations. If it were true that God reached down to us and told us that we are not to look to Him for guidance any longer, that guidance is called Mosaic Law and God decided to wipe it out! That simply is not so. We are to look to God for guidance and direction and much of it is called Mosaic Law.

If you will study history of the times that Jesus lived and men wrote what God told them to write, you will find that they put those thoughts from God into language they understood. So we need to know what that language meant to them. They called the rituals that God had given them to help them obey His way "Law of Moses" and often when we read scripture we think God told them He was destroying all the directions He gave us. This is NOT so.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
instructions given by Jesus = law

instructions given by Jesus /= the law
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Yes they are all laws but each law is different.

Just like "Stop at a red light" and "look both ways before crossing the road" are two different statements.
 
Even in the old covenant there was need for forgiveness of sins because people couldn't keep the law perfect back then either.

The contract changed and the terms are vastly different between the old and new covenant.


In the old covenant people only had to give 10% and one day a week in worship of God.

In the new covenant it's 100% and to pray unceasingly.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
What does that have to do with law being law?
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The law of sin and death versus the LAW of the spirit.

Two different laws talked about in scripture.

Main difference?

On Mount Sinai the people refused to hear from God directly. So they got written laws and prophets and priests.

On Mount Zion we are given the Holy spirit to live in our hearts and our bodies are His holy temple.

People claim the law is the same. How ever Jesus shows how it has changed. The New Covenant is not just rehashing the old.
 
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Ariel82 said:
Yes they are all laws but each law is different.

Just like "Stop at a red light" and "look both ways before crossing the road" are two different statements.
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Jesus gave commandments and instruction in supernatural law (e.g., blessed are the pure...; compare to "blessed are those who look both ways before crossing the street"). Every bit of it is law.
 
Ariel82 said:
The law of sin and death versus the LAW of the spirit.

Two different laws talked about in scripture.

Main difference?

On Mount Sinai the people refused to hear from God directly. So they got written laws and prophets and priests.

On Mount Zion we are given the Holy spirit to live in our hearts and our bodies are His holy temple.

People claim the law is the same. How ever Jesus shows how it has changed. The New Covenant is not just rehashing the old.
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And what the spirit speaks isn't law?
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Jesus gave commandments and instruction in supernatural law (e.g., blessed are the pure...; compare to "blessed are those who look both ways before crossing the street"). Every bit of it is law.
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Matthew 17

24When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, “Does your teacher not pay the tax?” 25He said, “Yes.” And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?” 26And when he said, “From others,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
And what the spirit speaks isn't law?
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Yes it's law.

Different contracts = different laws

Confused about why we can't seem to communicate.

New covenant believers are not under contract to the Laws given on Mount Sinai through Moses.

We are under contract to the Laws given by Jesus at the sermon on the mount.

They are not the same laws..., no animal sacrifice, no weekly sabbath, no levutical priesthood, etc.
 
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laws are laws.

covenants are covenants.

covenants are not laws.

laws are not covenants.

However, the two are related in the context of scripture.
 
Ariel82 said:
Yes it's law.

Different contracts = different laws

Confused about why we can't seem to communicate.

New covenant believers are not under contract to the Laws given on Mount Sinai through Moses.

We are under contract to the Laws given by Jesus at the sermon on the mount.

They are not the same laws..., no animal sacrifice, no weekly sabbath, no levutical priesthood, etc.
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I agree wholeheartedly.
 
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