Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

wrong

this strawmans been torn down already

its your false doctrine that says you have to confess with your tongue to be saved through your own twisting of scripture

what scripture actually says here

"if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

this way DOES NOT EXCLUDE PEOPLE WHO CANNOT SPEAK

but your false twisting of it does


it says if you believe IN YOUR HEART and confess with your mouth you WILL BE (absolute) saved

which excludes fake believers (heart) and shows fruit (confession of Jesus) in the example itself

this doesnt mean if you cannot confess with your tongue you cant be saved

Hi Mcgee, I've been offline due to packing and moving for a week.

If I may add something that I was taught in Adult Sunday School Class. When you come across two passages of scripture that "seem" to contradict each other; where one proof text is clear and the other is unclear you should use sound exegesis to explain and interpret both passages. And hopefully this will end the disagreement.

If you become deadlock on what the unclear text say's you may then interpret the unclear text using the clear text and its biblical meaning. All of God's word is true and God breathed. By using the clear passages of scripture to interpret unclear passages it may give you the correct interpretation.

When that fails then just agree to disagree and move on.

God bless

 

[preston39]

For God so love this creation of His that he provided a way for redemption for all mankind. John 3:16. It is mankind who takes the Word of God and complicates that Word to the nth degree.

Yes, I believe in that verse as did the guilty thief on the Cross, who btw had no time for baptism nor any of the other rituals to be performed. Yet, Jesus Christ said to him "today you will be with me in paradise."

S...,

You are wrong with scripture...here.
The thief on the cross was not under the new covenant which requires water baptism.
I suggest studying scriptures.

 

[preston39]

....Thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"..../QUOTE]

N...,

Are you suggesting here that language precludes the need to repent? Need not be baptized?...need not live a righteous life?, etc.
Surely not. Please clarify.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi Mcgee, I've been offline due to packing and moving for a week.

If I may add something that I was taught in Adult Sunday School Class. When you come across two passages of scripture that "seem" to contradict each other; where one proof text is clear and the other is unclear you should use sound exegesis to explain and interpret both passages. And hopefully this will end the disagreement.

If you become deadlock on what the unclear text say's you may then interpret the unclear text using the clear text and its biblical meaning. All of God's word is true and God breathed. By using the clear passages of scripture to interpret unclear passages it may give you the correct interpretation.

When that fails then just agree to disagree and move on.

God bless

i havent been on too much myself bro


but im glad to see you



God bless your new home (i think you meant moving where you live)

and yes i agree

God preserved His word perfectly and all truth in it can explain away any misunderstandings
but there comes a point where ..... the seeds been planted

and walking away is maybe best....

but i felt the need to step in just a bit today... not that i expect an honest reply to either of my posts

 

[benhur]

ben says

" all those that have done good will go to heaven and EL, and those who have done evil will go to hell. "

no ben , we dont go to heaven and have eternal life based on what WE do
we go to heaven and have eternal life if we put our trust in what Christ has already DONE for us !!

Well, ljs, I was just paraphrasing Christ himself as he spoke in the bible. See John 5:28-29. Like me and Jesus say, belief and faith and trust are all part of the salvation process, but also part of that process is doing good things.

That is why Jesus said "those who have done good, will be resurrected unto life, and those who have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[benhur]

Amen! Matthew 15:12 - Then the disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?” But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Amen! In John 15:2, Jesus said "no fruit" IN CONTRAST with those who bear fruit. In John 15:3, we read - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. All of the disciples EXCEPT Judas Iscariot. John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

In John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! Apart from faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ, we would stand before God in our own filthy rags of self righteousness.

Again you miss the point in John 15:2. You say: Amen! In John 15:2, Jesus said "no fruit" IN CONTRAST with those who bear fruit.

Not quite right. You never acknowledge the concept of being IN HIM. He said those branches IN ME (saved people are the only people that are IN JESUS) that produce no fruit will be taken away (lose their salvation). There is also consequences even for those that are producing fruit, so that more fruit can be produced.

 

[BillG]

S...,

You are wrong with scripture...here.
The thief on the cross was not under the new covenant which requires water baptism.
I suggest studying scriptures.

So effectively baptism saves and not faith?

So how was the thief saved on the cross given he was under the Old Covenant?

Why the difference?

 

[TruthTalk]

Well, ljs, I was just paraphrasing Christ himself as he spoke in the bible. See John 5:28-29. Like me and Jesus say, belief and faith and trust are all part of the salvation process, but also part of that process is doing good things.

That is why Jesus said "those who have done good, will be resurrected unto life, and those who have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

​

I hope you believe that the ones who have done evil are unsaved sinners. Christians will have plenty of "good works", we are save to do good works; we are not saved by our good works.

Works that follow a saved Christian will be tested, the wood hay and stubble will be burnt up but they will be saved as through fire.

Works are not the measuring stick of who is saved and who is not, there are many unsaved persons in the world who have good works.

John5:29
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.


For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[benhur]

That "taken away" is the Non-Born Again Christian, but have you even thought about where they are taken away to?

Here is the proof, they are taken away to Hades/Hell.


Matthew 3:10 (NCV)
10 The ax is now ready to cut down the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. {NOT ALL - You count way to many as BEING saved people.}

Matthew 7:19-20 (NCV)
19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. {In the fires of Hades/Hell.}
20 In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do.

Luke 17:28-29 (TLB)
28 "And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot: people went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—
29 until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Matthew 10:28 (HCSB)
28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather,
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


NOW, do NOT choke on this TRUTH:


Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, {Hades/Hell}
and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
{Only those few who are Born Again.}


The only PURE MOTIVE is because YOU LOVE THE LORD and BRETHREN. ANY OTHER MOTIVE TO DO GOOD WORKS IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS TO GOD.


Romans 8:27-28 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

You are reading the scripture wrong: those taken away are not the Non-Born Again, but they are the Born Again that are taken away. How do we know this, because those taken away are those branches that are IN JESUS. Those IN JESUS can not be
Non-Born Again.

Therefore we must conclude that those branches that are taken away are Born Again Christians that did not bear fruit and so were taken away. And you can equate these same people that are IN JESUS but produced no fruit with a bad tree that produces no fruit or it produces bad fruit. We know what happens to those trees.

You interpret this scipture wrong because you are OSAS and so the branches that produce no fruit have to be Non-Born Again branches vs those that produce fruit which are Born Again branches. But this is not what the scirpture says. It says those branches that are IN JESUS (Born Again persons) who produce no fruit will be taken away. Read it right and you will agree with me. But if you agree with me you have to give up your OSAS doctrine.

 

[Seohce]

1. Not by works( NOT “VOID OF WORKS”) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
2. Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
3. Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
4. Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH and NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves).(#1)


It is NOT BY FAITH ALONE(#2)but it WORKS in LOVE(#3)thus FAITH & LOVE(works of obedience(romans 1:5) manifested in ACTION and in TRUTH)(1john 3:16-18)are working TOGETHER.(#4)


2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE: THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.




THE FIRST PHASE OF SALVATION IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE THAT GOD HAS SENT AND IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

(john 6:28-29, eph 1:13,romans 10:8-17).

THROUGH THIS FAITH WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT(the Helper/Counsellor)(gal 3:14, john 14:16-17)


John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”


THE SECOND PHASE IS THE WORKING OUT OF THAT SALVATION AND REMAINING/CONTINUING IN THE FAITH TO THE END THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL AND COMMANDMENTS, DOING GOOD WORKS. WALKING AS JESUS DID AND BEING A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES THE WORKS BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO IS THE HEAD.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has FAITH in me WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, iF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes from FAITH.


Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.


Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as servants, you are servants to the one whom you obey—WHETHER YOU ARE SERVANTS TO SIN, WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, OR TO OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?


2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the OBEDIENCE THAT ACCOMPANIES YOUR CONFESSION OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, ATTAINING to the whole measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.


Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in DOING GOOD, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


1 Timothy 6:18-19 Command them TO DO GOOD, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.


Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY HIM.


Matthew 19:16-17 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”


Matthew 25:21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. COME AND SHARE YOUR MASTER’S HAPPINESS!’


WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY THESE TRUTHS AS IT IS WRITTEN:

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.


James 1:22 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY deceiving your own selves.


Romans 2:13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God: that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not grievous.


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.


Ephesians 3:19 and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all THE FULLNESS OF GOD.


THE THIRD PHASE OF SALVATION IS SALVATION FROM GOD’S WRATH. THIS IS DEPENDING ON GOD’S MERCY AND JUDGMENT(JUSTICE).


Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


1 John 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM.


Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,(ref:john 14:12) where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment,(ref:hebrews 10:26-27) because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.


Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? FOR WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD’S JUDGMENT SEAT.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, BUT TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.


1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the SINNERS.


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who WORKS for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.


John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

 

[preston39]

So effectively baptism saves and not faith?

So how was the thief saved on the cross given he was under the Old Covenant?

Why the difference?

B...,
Nope...never said that. Does repentance ...alone...save...without further action on our part. No.
Why do you do the........ this or that? Faith is necessary...so is water baptism...so is repentance...so is living a righteous life, etc.
Water Baptism wasn't required by the old covenant of which the thief was under at that time. He was saved by G-d's grace as extended to him. G-d can extend.... special dispensation...as He sees fit. How was anyone saved under the old covenant?

Water baptism is required under the new covenant/new testament.

We must keep scripture in context if we are to properly understand it and apply it in our lives.

 

[benhur]

​

I hope you believe that the ones who have done evil are unsaved sinners. Christians will have plenty of "good works", we are save to do good works; we are not saved by our good works.

Works that follow a saved Christian will be tested, the wood hay and stubble will be burnt up but they will be saved as through fire.

Works are not the measuring stick of who is saved and who is not, there are many unsaved persons in the world who have good works.

John5:29
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.


For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I believe that most of those that are resurrected to damnation are Non-Born Again persons. But according to John 15:2, I believe there will be some Born-Again persons that will not produce fruit and so be resurrected to damnation also.

IOW a Born-Again Christian better be willing to do the works that God has prepared in advance for them to do. Or they will find themselves with the goats wondering what happened. I believed and was Born-Again, thats all my pastor told me I needed, I didn't need to do good works, I just needed to trust Jesus. What happened. Should have read John 15:2 and found out what happened to Born Again Christians who did not produce fruit.

 

[TruthTalk]

You are reading the scripture wrong: those taken away are not the Non-Born Again, but they are the Born Again that are taken away. How do we know this, because those taken away are those branches that are IN JESUS. Those IN JESUS can not be
Non-Born Again.

Therefore we must conclude that those branches that are taken away are Born Again Christians that did not bear fruit and so were taken away. And you can equate these same people that are IN JESUS but produced no fruit with a bad tree that produces no fruit or it produces bad fruit. We know what happens to those trees.

You interpret this scipture wrong because you are OSAS and so the branches that produce no fruit have to be Non-Born Again branches vs those that produce fruit which are Born Again branches. But this is not what the scirpture says. It says those branches that are IN JESUS (Born Again persons) who produce no fruit will be taken away. Read it right and you will agree with me. But if you agree with me you have to give up your OSAS doctrine.

Wrong again, Judas Iscariot grafted himself into Jesus vineyard and was, "non-born again" Our Savior had many followers who were hangers on for the benefit of being near the Christ.

But I understand that this interpretation does not fit your view that A "True Christian" can lose their eternal salvation, Your gospel is 100 percent a counterfeit gospel.

John6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day,

 

[mailmandan]

One scriptures says all you have to do to be saved is believe. Another scripture (Rom. 10:9) says that you have to believe and confess with your tongue in order to be saved. Another scripture (Mark 16:16)says you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved. So you just quoted one of the scriptures John 3:16. What about the other 2?

I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we verbally confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

*We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.*

 

[mailmandan]

Sorry to disappoint you but I believe in Jesus, and have been baptized of the spirit and have also been baptized with water. So according to your believf system, I am saved and will be caught up in the last days just like you. See you there.

Please explain to us exactly what you mean by you "believe in Jesus." If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

 

[benhur]

I've heard people misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we verbally confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

*We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.*

NOWWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned", but ONE PLACE in the Bible (Mark 16:16) says "baptized to be saved".

You did a nice disortation of my post. I do appreciate your time and effort. You are knowledgeable and articulate, I just wished you were on my side on this particular subject.

There are also many other scriptures that I could post that tell us many ways that the Word says we are saved. But I do agree that belief is the number 1 way to be saved. If you think about it, that is the most important part of the saving process, and that is that you believe. If you can't believe, there is nothing more to say or do. So that has to be the number 1 reason for salvation.

I maintain that when Jesus uses the word 'believe', he is thinking that a person is all in. And that person would then be expected to do all the remaining elements of salvation. If only God can get them to believe.

 

[benhur]

Please explain to us exactly what you mean by you "believe in Jesus." If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

You have asked me this same question many times, but because you were kind and answered my questions again, here goes:
I would tell him that I believed you were the Son of God and Savior of the world, although I had not seen you, yet I believed, because the HS baptized me in the spirit and I have done what the spirit and the bible have told me to do all my life. I believed in you, and I trusted that if I followed you, you would forgive me of my faults and failures along the way, and lift me up to you with your grace and allow me to live with you and your Father eternally.

 

[mailmandan]

NOWWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned",

BINGO! Yet in Mark 16:16(b) it clearly says whoever does not believe will be condemned. Also, John 3:18 says he who does not believe is condemned already.. Yet NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." That would be strange if water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.

but ONE PLACE in the Bible (Mark 16:16) says "baptized to be saved".

No, it says he who believe and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized). It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, but if no water is available (particularly due to a death bed conversion) you will still be saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..

Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned” in Mark 16:16. So once again, if water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics .

You did a nice disortation of my post. I do appreciate your time and effort. You are knowledgeable and articulate, I just wished you were on my side on this particular subject.

What did I distort? If I am not at least somewhat knowledgeable and articulate by now, then I'm in trouble. I've had these types of debates on multiple Christian forums since 2011.

There are also many other scriptures that I could post that tell us many ways that the Word says we are saved. But I do agree that belief is the number 1 way to be saved. If you think about it, that is the most important part of the saving process, and that is that you believe. If you can't believe, there is nothing more to say or do. So that has to be the number 1 reason for salvation.

So you believe that salvation is a process of faith + further elements of accomplishments? Works?

I maintain that when Jesus uses the word 'believe', he is thinking that a person is all in.

Believers are ALL in, in regards to trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

And that person would then be expected to do all the remaining elements of salvation. If only God can get them to believe.

So believing in Jesus is not enough and remaining elements must be accomplished and added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save us? That is basically what it comes down to, using your logic.

 

[mailmandan]

You have asked me this same question many times, but because you were kind and answered my questions again, here goes:
I would tell him that I believed you were the Son of God and Savior of the world, although I had not seen you, yet I believed, because the HS baptized me in the spirit and I have done what the spirit and the bible have told me to do all my life. I believed in you, and I trusted that if I followed you, you would forgive me of my faults and failures along the way, and lift me up to you with your grace and allow me to live with you and your Father eternally.

Thank you for answering my question, but can you see how what you said demonstrates that you believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, yet you are also trusting in "your accomplishments" as the means of your salvation?

In Matthew 7:22, we read - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?

My answer would be - "Lord, Lord, didn't YOU live a sinless perfect life, pay for my sins in full on the cross and rise again from the dead on the third day. *I am trusting exclusively in YOU as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation." Praise God!

 

[benhur]

Wrong again, Judas Iscariot grafted himself into Jesus vineyard and was, "non-born again" Our Savior had many followers who were hangers on for the benefit of being near the Christ.

But I understand that this interpretation does not fit your view that A "True Christian" can lose their eternal salvation, Your gospel is 100 percent a counterfeit gospel.

John6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day,

Your explanation of Judas just does not fit John 15:2. Judas was not a branch IN JESUS. So he was going to not be nourished and did eventually die. But in this scripture Jesus is talking about Born-Again branches who are IN HIM. Read it again and you will see. Especially see the words IN ME, that means Born Again persons.

It is the Fathers will that He should lose none of all those he has given Jesus. But Jesus is the only one that did all that the Father babe him to do. Many that were given to Jesus did not do all that the Father willed them to do and did not produce fruit. Therefore the Father took them away from Jesus. That is the whole reason for John 15:2.