Not By Works

[Rosemaryx]

How are you so sure?
Care to discuss this?

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Has Jesus not said here that Judas is doomed to destruction , and before you say he was a follower , yes he followed Jesus , but he did not believe in Jesus , if he did , he would not of done what he did...

Zachariah I believe speaks of Judas...

 

[Magenta]

I need to mull this one over a bit. It's my understanding that Eve was deceived by the appearance of the "shining one". But that's a whole other thread.

Adam was not deceived, though. He sinned willfully.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

john 1

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sentto bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses, butgrace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

___________

john 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

___________

john 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[VCO]

The only way to prove your point here would be to show from Scriptures an individual who WAS SAVED or BELIEVED and then STOPPED believing or got LOST.

If there is such a verse then I believe everyone here would agree with you. I know I would

They want to claim that everyone who claims to be Christian and are Baptized in Water, are included in the SAVED Christians.

My Bible says it is ONLY those who are Born Again, are the Saved Christians, where they have been IMMERSED INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST.

John 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV)
13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

That is the BAPTISM that Saves, including the Thief on the Cross.

Therefore they have INCLUDED MANY who were NEVER BORN AGAIN.

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it
are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[Matthew55]

How can you, the religious person will appear to have all kinds of works, so how can you tell who has faith in god, and who are just going through the motions because their faith is in their works,

Who is going to rely on their works vs rely on Jesus. Nobody. A person does good works because of his faith in Jesus. So the test is real. If you are doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that there is a true faith in Christ. If you are not doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that this person does not have true faith.

I know you want to throw all kinds of exceptions at me, but don't, I am not the judge, only God will judge, but just a cursory look at a persons life can give you a pretty good bet that that person has faith in Jesus or not.

 

[dcontroversal]

You have it backwords

Obedience only works through faith,

A dead faith will not be obedient. (Although it may appear obdient, as the religious person appears to have works)

Absolutely.....and plenteous is the number that claims to have faith while fully expecting that works have apart to play in allowing them to enter.....at least 3 to 4 are posting in this thread....they claim...

a. Jesus as Lord <--faith
b. Works will help them make the cut

Same thing that ALL workers for, Cainologists, Pharisees and salvation losers peddle.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Wrong

Faith saves

Mere belief or a dead faith does not

True faith will always be accompanied by works

Fake faith or dead faith will not.

You know I totally agree, but must point out the obvious...

a. It is faith ALONE that saves a man....works do not top off, finish, embellish, and or keep one saved
b. Those saved by faith can and do have works that do not meet the righteous standards set by the word of God
c. Many saved will have works akin to wood, hay and stubble, yet will be saved
d. A lack of works and or rebellion does not lose salvation, but rather leads to the chastening of the LORD

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is the problem EG....
You say obedience only works through faith.

Please note:
Everybody on this thread is a born again Christian.
We're talking about born again Christians.

Of course we have to have faith FIRST.
The question is:
Do good works have to follow or is it an option we have?
James said:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD.

See.....he's speaking to people that HAVE FAITH.

No, James is peaking to JEWS which had a mere belief in God as compared to those who actually had saving faith........and the context is the faith that justifies before GOD being able to be seen by MEN based upon the ensuing works which DO NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED and or JUSTIFY before GOD....

Get your facts straight Fran

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who is going to rely on their works vs rely on Jesus. Nobody.

Anyone who states there final salvation depends on their works.ie,they claim Works maintain your salvation

[/quote] A person does good works because of his faith in Jesus. So the test is real. If you are doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that there is a true faith in Christ. If you are not doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that this person does not have true faith. [/quote]

How can you tell a person who is worki g out of selfish reasons, and who is truely serving others? You cant, if you think you can, you claim To be like God, so reality is it is a BAD determination.

I know you want to throw all kinds of exceptions at me, but don't, I am not the judge, only God will judge, but just a cursory look at a persons life can give you a pretty good bet that that person has faith in Jesus or not.

No i just want you to see reality, you can not possibly see anything, a person could be a prodigal child, or even a child who has never grown up (a babe in christ) and yes you are claiming to be God saying you can determine a persons true heart.

 

[dcontroversal]

Who is going to rely on their works vs rely on Jesus. Nobody. A person does good works because of his faith in Jesus. So the test is real. If you are doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that there is a true faith in Christ. If you are not doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that this person does not have true faith.

I know you want to throw all kinds of exceptions at me, but don't, I am not the judge, only God will judge, but just a cursory look at a persons life can give you a pretty good bet that that person has faith in Jesus or not.

Very dangerous ground.....lost people do good things every day such as charity, open doors for little old ladies, donate clothes, give to the salvation army etc.....and lest we forget Jesus said the number will be "MANY" that come before his throne claiming....

a. Jesus as LORD <--claimed faith
b. Expecting to enter based upon the many GOOD works they have done in his name.....

The above is what MANY so called Christian religions believe and or preach.........some even in this thread

 

[Matthew55]

2nd Timothy 2:15 and saying that faith plus works to gain, maintain, top off, finish or keep salvation is NOT cutting straight the word of GOD.......

Thank you for using the concept in a sentence, but what does "rightly divided" mean to you?

 

[dcontroversal]

did you know that in Jude it says "to Him who is ABLE TO KEEP YOU from stumbling"?

And what about this:

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

^thats in Peter's epistle. Why does it say kept by the power of God?

Isnt it up to us to maintain our salvation?

As you know where I stand, we in PRACTICAL APPLICATION agree on repentance.
Where we would differ is: I believe repentance and faith are GIFTS from God. I believe God starts and finishes our salvation. And what makes me sad is that I feel like you are leaving God out of the picture completely AFTER salvation.

I feel like your message is:
God saves you, but then its sink or swim buddy.

Here is my suggestion to you: Take all the verses about obedience, about putting your hand to the plow and not looking back, entering through the narrow gate, all that. And COMBINE THEM with the God who is working in you verses and who is able to keep you, nothing can separate you, sheep know His voice and nothing shall take them from the Father's hand etc.

Work out your own salvation AND then it says: For it is GOD who works in you to do and will........

The truth is simple....HE that began a good work of faith in us will FINISH and COMPLETE IT.....we are saved to the uttermost by the irrevocable gift of life having been born spiritually from above by seed that is INCORRUPTIBLE......

 

[Matthew55]

Very dangerous ground.....lost people do good things every day such as charity, open doors for little old ladies, donate clothes, give to the salvation army etc.....and lest we forget Jesus said the number will be "MANY" that come before his throne claiming....

a. Jesus as LORD <--claimed faith
b. Expecting to enter based upon the many GOOD works they have done in his name.....

The above is what MANY so called Christian religions believe and or preach.........some even in this thread

So do you find yourself shying away from good works so you do not find yourself full of pride?

 

[dcontroversal]

Gosh. You're starting to sound a little calvinistic...
BUT...

How could you possibly think the above after that long post I sent you?
How could you possibley think the above without ASKING me what I think about it?
I don't assume things about people --- I ask and try to understand them.

WE ARE KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD.
Right.
Why did Jesus go away so He could send the Holy Spirit?
John 16:7

Isn't the Holy Spirit God?
Isn't He our comforter?
Our paraclete?
Does He not convict us of sin?
Help us to walk with God Father?

Jesus said WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
John 15:5b

I tend to worry more about persons that say they are saved but are afraid to say that they MUST obey God since this is what the entire bible says, starting with Genesis.

God starts and finishes our salvation IF WE ALLOW HIM to.
We have to cooperate with Him and follow His lead and obey His will for us; whatever it may be and as often as we can.

As far as nothing being able to separate us, if you notice it says nothing can separate us...
but we can WALK AWAY from God if we so desire.

Our free will was not taken away at salvation.
It was our desire to be saved
and it can be our desire to abandon God completely.

The sheep know His voice....
I'm just listening to that voice.

Too many false alerts in the above to even begin to address it....all the bolded is false it it means to keep or maintain salvation.

 

[BillG]

Who is going to rely on their works vs rely on Jesus. Nobody. A person does good works because of his faith in Jesus. So the test is real. If you are doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that there is a true faith in Christ. If you are not doing good works, you can pretty much assure yourself that this person does not have true faith.

I know you want to throw all kinds of exceptions at me, but don't, I am not the judge, only God will judge, but just a cursory look at a persons life can give you a pretty good bet that that person has faith in Jesus or not.

Wow.

Does God just have a cursory look?
What about bad works that a believer does?
Does that negate their faith?
What is the real test?
Is it faith that produces works or good works done when no faith?

 

[dcontroversal]

Thank you for using the concept in a sentence, but what does "rightly divided" mean to you?

I just told you in that sentence........it means exactly what I ended with..........

 

[dcontroversal]

So do you find yourself shying away from good works so you do not find yourself full of pride?

A moot question that has no bearing on what I said..........and the bible is clear....we are not to boast and brag of what we do....I do not need nor want the praise of men......

 

[Argueless]

Going to attempt an explanation. Lol

Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered. Not going to touch what they possibly were...but likening our walk to this as sowing and reaping.

When we do wrong...and we all have in varying degrees....the results are never the perfect will of God. Permissive then seems to come though, and we suffer the results of our foolishness.

So the word obedience means to hearken submissively. I believe this is His Voice. Our Father doesn't cast us off, but we are chastened at times by our stubbornness. But, am of the mind that He would rather we listen attentively to Him the first time, to not suffer those consequences.

But, even in this....He works all things out for our good...TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM AND ARE CALLED.

Amen.

And Jesus also tells us that THOSE WHO LOVE HIM are the ones who obey His commands and THOSE THAT ARE CALLED should live HOLY LIVES.

...Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 14:21-24

Be Holy

...Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:13-16

...It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

 

[dcontroversal]

Easy.
Adam
Judas Iscariot

Good night.

HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA WROOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGG

Judas was a devil from the BEGINNING

He was never saved and then LOST IT and GOD did not forsake ADAM as a BELIEVER and then he LOST IT......HE had NOTHING to BE SAVED fro until he SINNED...

MAN...you sure jump through religious hoops of error to grasp at the proverbial straw of a works maintained salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

Judas was never saved , how can you use him as an example ?

It is no surprise Rose....those which peddle a false gospel have already sunk so deep in error that adding another error such as claiming Judas was saved then lost is just another can-o-beans in the Heinz 57 pot of soup.....

Judas was a devil from the beginning....he was never saved and then lost it